The SSN thing shows why we need laws about government agency internal controls

2,812 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 3 days ago by pagerman @ work
BusterAg
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AG
Once upon a time, we had organizations in the US that would lie about fraud and illegal activities overseas. Then, when the organizations got caught, the leaders of the organizations would just claim that they had no idea that the fraud was committed. It happened over and over again, and some people got really hurt.

Then Enron collapsed, Tyco collapsed, Worldcom collapsed, and the leaders of these companies said the same things, and that is how we got Sarbanes-Oxley (SARBOX).

The most stringent part of Sarbanes-Oxley is that it forced publicly traded companies to put internal controls into place that would catch fraud. It forced the CEO and CFO of a publicly traded company to attest that there were adequate controls in place every time they reported earnings. An internal auditor and external auditor had to sign off on the internal controls. If it turned out they lied about the quality of the internal or external controls when they signed the earnings report, then the CEO, CFO, and auditors could face federal jailtime. A lot of it.

Note that SARBOX doesn't mean that the CEO/CFO gets jailtime if fraud occurs in the company. If the company has adequate internal controls, according to industry standards as attested to by the auditors, and some smart guy figured out how to get around those controls, the company would probably face a fine, have to review and fix their internal controls, and no one goes to jail.

Pigs get fat, and hogs get slaughtered. Well, Biden and Obama screwed up enough that the meat packers are hiring as many illegals as they can find. The fraud we are seeing in the government is worse than Enron, Tyco, and Worldcom combined.

There is no way in the world that we would see the kind of fraud we are seeing in the SS office and USAID if these kinds of internal controls were mandated by law and agency heads had to attest to the quality of internal controls before they requested or were awarded any budget allocation. It would make the fraud of having 380 million active SSN numbers when there are only 330 million US citizens a crime, the head of the SS administration would face jailtime, and the auditors of the internal controls also face jailtime. The amount of jailtime would scale based on the amount of fraud. The heads of USAID would be facing prison sentences of counted in centuries or millennia.

We need internal control reform in the Federal government. It will be a great jobs program for the Federal government until it gets completed. It will take a lot of power out of the federal bureaucracy, eliminate tons of government waste, and give fraud reformers like Musk and Trump a huge freaking hammer to bring down on government incompetence and fraud.
MemphisAg1
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AG
Man oh man, we need to demand transparency BIG TIME from our government... at all levels... fed, state, and local.

That's what I'm taking away from all this.

And any agency that resists that should be turned upside down.
Ellis Wyatt
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There need to be severe penalties for government employees allowing these things to happen, whether intentional or not.
BTKAG97
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AG
Need Constitutional amendments that severely limit spending, regulatory authority, and prosecutional ability of federal agencies.

Hell limit the total of agencies to 3 while at it.
BusterAg
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AG
Ellis Wyatt said:

There need to be severe penalties for government employees allowing these things to happen, whether intentional or not.
We need severe criminal penalties just for allowing systems in place that are easily defrauded, not just penalties for fraud.

If every F'ing publicly traded company in the US can do it just because Enron went bust, then this federal government can do it too.

It is so much easier to detect and prosecute administrations that fail to install internal controls than it is to prove fraud, knowledge of fraud, and intent.

Failing to prevent fraud should lead to jail time. Sarbox is just a way of encoding how to prove you attempted to prevent fraud.
agpetz
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OMB Circular A-123 is the executive branch's version of Sarbanes-Oxley. There are internal controls and there are requirements to test and report annually. The problem is you have people doing it and they can lie. You also have no accountability.

Let's not also pretend that there is no longer fraud in the private sector. There are a lot of things that need fixed but private companies and corporations screw things up all the time. The difference is a bad company will go out of business. The fed govt wont.
ts5641
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Your daily reminder the federal government works directly against the interest of the American people.
Troy91
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AG
We also need a daily reminder that the federal data systems are remarkably outdated and efforts to modernize them have failed repeatedly.

Without a modern (less than a decade old) design, all of these "controls" are external reports that do not change the underlying data sets.

My guess is that there is a significant number of fat fingered SSNs in that database in addition to any fraud. Without a strong quality control program and a requirement to fix the data set, these errors compound over time.

We are there at the end of the compounding. Determining fraud or incompetence at this point will be difficult. Make them build a new database and clean the data as it comes into the new system. That is a good use of federal funds.
Get Off My Lawn
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agpetz said:

OMB Circular A-123 is the executive branch's version of Sarbanes-Oxley. There are internal controls and there are requirements to test and report annually. The problem is you have people doing it and they can lie. You also have no accountability.

Let's not also pretend that there is no longer fraud in the private sector. There are a lot of things that need fixed but private companies and corporations screw things up all the time. The difference is a bad company will go out of business. The fed govt wont.
How about rotating state selection of external auditors? There have to be some safeguards against it becoming another political tool, but it's be better than keeping the foxes in charge of house accounting
Ellis Wyatt
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Private companies are not spending my tax dollars. Or they should not be.
jwhaby
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Incentives are the only things that matter in life or in business. When there is an asymmetrical relationship between risk and reward it encourages a certain kind of behavior.

Let's say you're a government bureaucrat with limited pay opportunity and you're in charge of granting government contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars. If the reward is 10% of the amount of the contract funneled back to you, while the risk is firing or maybe a few years in club fed, then the situation clearly favors the reward side of the equation. However if the risk was to face execution or life in prison, then the equation is more balanced and most people would probably lean more towards the risk side.

All this to say that we need to hold our elected officials and public servants accountable. There needs to be real punishment for misdeeds or the bad behavior will never cease.

There's a reason why people don't spit their gum on the sidewalk or spray paint graffiti in Singapore. There are consequences to your actions. Sticks and carrots.
SociallyConditionedAg
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AG
Mark to market is a terrible component of Sarbanes-Oxley. The whole thing needs to be junked.
pagerman @ work
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AG
ts5641 said:

Your daily reminder the federal government works directly against the interest of the American people.
It's not really this.

It's that all bureaucracies in any walk of life, while they might have started out with a particular goal or objective, eventually exist only to perpetuate themselves.

The people that work in (for example) the Department of Agriculture) don't go to work in the morning thinking "how can I screw over the American taxpayer". They do however, go to work in the morning thinking "how can I make sure that my job/department never goes away".

This isn't against the interests of the American people, but it is indifferent to those interests.

One way is to constantly be expanding the scope and authority of the work they are tasked with so that there is always increasing work to be done, people to hire, and they can claim that the work that they do is crucial to the health/safety/security/interests/what have you of the American public.

This is one of the reasons why it is so dangerous when congress passes vague, open-ended laws that allow (in fact require - see the CAFE standard thread) the bureaucratic class to "interpret" and define the actual scope of the law is that all that really happens is that the bureaucracies grow in power and scope, thus becoming that much harder to control.

Listen to the squealing from the bureaucratic class (and their defenders and beneficiaries) at the cuts that Musk et al are making (which are only temporary unless and until Congress makes them permanent) to the various government agencies: "Department XYZ is crucial to the safety of the public! If you cut them in any way we are all going to DIE!! Planes will fall out of the sky, children will (somehow) be more poorly educated than they currently are, food will kill us, the environment will disappear and all life will perish, etc., ad infinitum!" This is what you hear even at a decrease in the amount of growth in a bureaucracy, much less its outright elimination.

Add in the lack of a profit motive, meaning there is nothing that drives improvement and efficiency, a wholesale lack of accountability (audits with no teeth and thus no risk to poor performance), a unionized workforce that further hinders all of the above, increases costs artificially and makes it difficult if not impossible to fire someone and you have a recipe for bloat, waste and fraud.

The founding fathers knew this, which is why they designed the government the way they did. Bureaucracy seeks to grow itself under the guise of accomplishing its tasks. Creeping government limits the liberties of the American people. The fact that we have basically completely ignored the constitution (because we prefer security over the risky uncertainty of liberty) is why we are here.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
agpetz
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I agree 100%. My point was that there is a system/program in place...it just doesn't work as it is run by people who are part of the flawed system. Keep in mind part of the driver of Sarbanes Oxley was to protect shareholders...nobody cares about the fraud itself.
deddog
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SOX is a bureaucratic nightmare for corporations, and is economically extremely inefficient.
Like all government regulation, its also a barrier to new entry.

Applying something like it to an already bureaucratic government which is lethargic and inefficient, will make things infinitely worse, not better.
BlueSmoke
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The leftist talking point is that yes, they are on the payrolls, but that NO checks are going out to them - how could they know this? Is each account verified?
Nobody cares. Work Harder
AJ02
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AG
It's crazy that there's so much waste, bc when I briefly worked at a government institution the amount of red tape and "CYA" and documentation we had to do was insane. Everything moved at a snail's pace because you had to get so many levels of approval and so many competing bids and scan literally every. single. piece of paper and communication into an electronic repository.


I despised it there because of all the bureaucracy and red tape, so I left pretty quickly. But given my experience....how are they able to get away with so much waste & borderline fraud???
91AggieLawyer
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AG
SOX was set up for 2 reasons: 1) pay for play -- give Congress campaign funds to dial in specific regs that benefitted certain companies; and 2) drive smaller companies (i.e. the competition for the bigger companies) out of business as they couldn't afford the newer regs.

They used Enron (et.al.) as a cover to get that passed.
B-1 83
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AG
Quote:

The people that work in (for example) the Department of Agriculture) don't go to work in the morning thinking "how can I screw over the American taxpayer". They do however, go to work in the morning thinking "how can I make sure that my job/department never goes away".
I never knew a single worker at the field level who thought that or worked that way. That nonsense was in the upper echelons, and guess who didn't get canned?
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
Pooh-ah95_ESL
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AG
BTKAG97 said:

Need Constitutional amendments that severely limit spending, regulatory authority, and prosecutional ability of federal agencies.

Hell limit the total of agencies to 3 while at it.


Governments are inherently corrupt and inefficient. We must do a better job of keeping government small and close to us. The fed creep is a major issue.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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We got know-your-client regulations that apparently require banks to lock bank accounts after 6-months of no activity, but somehow we cant get a handle on rooting out duplicate SSNs.

Abuela can wire unlimited cash to Mexico at the HEB but If I want to make a the same deposit at my local bank my ass getting SAR'ed.
pagerman @ work
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AG
B-1 83 said:

Quote:

The people that work in (for example) the Department of Agriculture) don't go to work in the morning thinking "how can I screw over the American taxpayer". They do however, go to work in the morning thinking "how can I make sure that my job/department never goes away".
I never knew a single worker at the field level who thought that or worked that way. That nonsense was in the upper echelons, and guess who didn't get canned?

Of course not, but the higher ups absolutely think this way.

Again, the fundamental truth is that bureaucracies exist to perpetuate themselves; everything else (including the mission) is secondary.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
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