People should at least become familiar with some of the work these migrants are willing to do in regards to thinking if we a) got people off the gubmit teet they would work these jobs; b) if we paid more, the locals would work these jobs vs migrants; or c) we just need to toughin our youngins up.

Stand in Texas City in the middle of a 100+ degree stretch in August, no clouds but humid, down near the dike where there is no wind. Stand there and climb up on a roof in no shade and deck, felt and shingle a house. Then go home and look at your suburban kid going to school so he can go to college.

So the quandary we face is how you staff these jobs. The reason those mexicans are on the roof is because it is their singular chance to make some money, have a family, maybe share a home, and if real luck send their ninos to a public school. That first generation may or may not wind up roofing houses, more often they run a roofing crew or go to college.

tl;dr quit thinking if we cut government benefits, made people work, paid better, etc that suddenly there is no need for migrant workers.

Illegal indigent immigrants who commit crimes are very very bad >> illegal immigrants who lork >> not as bad >> legal migrants who work, obey the law, and have an opportunity for a life in the US and may become a citizen >> we getting somewhere.

Democrats want open borders and make no differentiation with source, skill, behavior, goals of migrants. They simply see more $$ for spending and more names to record ballots for.

Think you missed a couple posts about why putting this on employers is a bad idea. A terribly bad and ineffective idea.

Quote:

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A big question to ask is why has our country failed us for the fact that it's difficult to find American citizens that are willing, competent, and able to do the tasks required by many employers in agriculture.

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Perhaps not that hard…….
As farm sizes have increased, the number of farmers has decreased, mechanization has increased, and face it, there's just fewer people experienced or even interested in ag.

This won't hurt small farms. It hurts the corporate farms. Corporate farms are the reason there's less small farms.

Jack Boyett said:

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This won't hurt small farms. It hurts the corporate farms. Corporate farms are the reason there's less small farms.

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Most corporate farms are family corporations

Corporations didn't kill small family farms.

Economics did

Jack Boyett said:

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This won't hurt small farms. It hurts the corporate farms. Corporate farms are the reason there's less small farms.

---

"Corporate farms".

B-1 83 said:

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Jack Boyett said:

---

This won't hurt small farms. It hurts the corporate farms. Corporate farms are the reason there's less small farms.

---

"Corporate farms".

---

Yeah, the boogeyman that everyone "knows" is running agriculture

I always laugh also when I hear someone say, "corporate farms." It indicates their level of knowledge of agriculture.

Jack Boyett said:

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This won't hurt small farms. It hurts the corporate farms. Corporate farms are the reason there's less small farms.

---

How would you classify the difference between a small farm and a corporate farm?

When I hear someone say "Corporate Farm" I'm certain they gained all their corporate agricultural knowledge from EWG

The problem with your model is that after generation 1 dad puts his kid through college you need a replacement for hard working migrant dad because his kids ain't doing the work.

So in your model you have to continually import people to fill those jobs. That is an unsustainable model. Eventually you have to stop importing people or you implode.

You know absolutely nothing about the population.

Here's some information.

The military didn't used to allow people with an IQ lower than 85 join because they were not intelligent enough to even mop the floors without it being counterproductive

That's 15 ish percent of the population.

There is a significant proportion of the population that will not be able to be productive or will be minimally productive throughout their lives based on solely on their innate intelligence

Those are the people that welfare and charity should help.

There are 5 million ish working age physically capable American males NOT working.

Our systems should be set up so that people should have to at least try to work.

If you don't like roofing houses then do something to improve yourself.

There is no work beneath you.

The most honorable thing is to work hard and provide for your family and stand on your own two feet.

America has lost sight of that and it is 100%- take away the handouts and people will get back to work.....or starve.

People are notoriously opposed to starvation.

Fins Up! said:

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I always laugh also when I hear someone say, "corporate farms." It indicates their level of knowledge of agriculture.

---

I'll give some examples. Lonestar Family Farms. I believe the "family" is from Sunray which is an hour away. I don't know who they are but my cousin works for them and takes care of about 25 pivots locally. 1 pivot my uncle had rented for probably 20 years. They bought out many small farmers. No idea how big the whole operation is. That is a corporate farm.

Another example is farmer that moved in who was partnered with investors from California. Again, bought out many farmers. Size is maybe 20-30k acres. This was fairly recent. It was a little humorous as they bought 2 of every piece of equipment brand new to start out. Everything thing the biggest. It's all parked in pairs at their barn. Like Noah became a farmer. This is what I'm calling corporate farm.

Both of these are negative for a small town. I applaud things that make it harder to farm big just like I'd support something that would hurt Walmart in favor of a small store. It's good to have entrepreneurs.

flown-the-coop said:

---

People should at least become familiar with some of the work these migrants are willing to do in regards to thinking if we a) got people off the gubmit teet they would work these jobs; b) if we paid more, the locals would work these jobs vs migrants; or c) we just need to toughin our youngins up.

Stand in Texas City in the middle of a 100+ degree stretch in August, no clouds but humid, down near the dike where there is no wind. Stand there and climb up on a roof in no shade and deck, felt and shingle a house. Then go home and look at your suburban kid going to school so he can go to college.

So the quandary we face is how you staff these jobs. The reason those mexicans are on the roof is because it is their singular chance to make some money, have a family, maybe share a home, and if real luck send their ninos to a public school. That first generation may or may not wind up roofing houses, more often they run a roofing crew or go to college.

tl;dr quit thinking if we cut government benefits, made people work, paid better, etc that suddenly there is no need for migrant workers.

Illegal indigent immigrants who commit crimes are very very bad >> illegal immigrants who lork >> not as bad >> legal migrants who work, obey the law, and have an opportunity for a life in the US and may become a citizen >> we getting somewhere.

Democrats want open borders and make no differentiation with source, skill, behavior, goals of migrants. They simply see more $$ for spending and more names to record ballots for.

---

Haven't we all been told that things are impossible to achieve…..for a multitude of reasons. Anyone can see Trump has just crushed that narrative to non existence.

Do you not think Trump doesn't understand the role in labor foreigners offer? They are agriculture whisperers and are needed. That doesn't mean they can be here in anonymity and just ignor laws. Does mean a group of political party members can just ignor law and get them here….with jobs and they are now eligible for everything US citizens are entitled to? There are no reasons good enough to have illegal aliens in the US.

I am absolutely positive a group of smart people can create a work visa program that these folks with their sponsors could be implement quick and then life goes on.

As for the rest. There are no humanitarian reasons, oh I need to make a wage to support my family, or what ever. These folks need to go back home…..reapply and go through a lawful process.

Maybe these folks can have first look opportunities. I really don't care…..but they need to have a legal purpose to be here and not burden our country.

coolerguy12 said:

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Thought OP was about the federal workforce and I was getting really excited.

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Same, brother, same.

Pantera said:

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considering the source, i would say this is not true ...

Quote:

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The New Republic was founded in 1914 to bring liberalism into the modern era. The founders understood that the challenges facing a nation transformed by the Industrial Revolution and mass immigration required bold new thinking.
Today's New Republic is wrestling with the same fundamental questions: how to build a more inclusive and democratic civil society, and how to fight for a fairer political economy in an age of rampaging inequality. We also face challenges that belong entirely to this age, from the climate crisis to Republicans hell-bent on subverting democratic governance.
We're determined to continue building on our founding mission.

---

---

I expect many more media efforts like this. They will proliferate because of the chicken little effect. THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING! Wash and repeat. Most critical thinking in our media died many years ago.

Most farms are now getting very large. They have to. Not at all uncommon to see folks farming 20k + acres. It either go big or go home if you want to compete.

And why shouldn't producers have access to private equity and investors? Many operating loans now easily exceed the lending limits of community banks. Cost of capital is a huge line item for modern farms. A new piece of equipment can easily cost over a million now. Have you priced a cotton picker or a combine lately? There are technology fees for superior genetics, emissions control for equipment (which the farmer in Brazil doesn't have to pay). The list of high input costs goes on and on.

What you have described is a small business. Hardly "corporate." So when I hear the word corporate farms, I know you don't know jack about the economics of modern agricultural systems.

FCBlitz said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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People should at least become familiar with some of the work these migrants are willing to do in regards to thinking if we a) got people off the gubmit teet they would work these jobs; b) if we paid more, the locals would work these jobs vs migrants; or c) we just need to toughin our youngins up.

Stand in Texas City in the middle of a 100+ degree stretch in August, no clouds but humid, down near the dike where there is no wind. Stand there and climb up on a roof in no shade and deck, felt and shingle a house. Then go home and look at your suburban kid going to school so he can go to college.

So the quandary we face is how you staff these jobs. The reason those mexicans are on the roof is because it is their singular chance to make some money, have a family, maybe share a home, and if real luck send their ninos to a public school. That first generation may or may not wind up roofing houses, more often they run a roofing crew or go to college.

tl;dr quit thinking if we cut government benefits, made people work, paid better, etc that suddenly there is no need for migrant workers.

Illegal indigent immigrants who commit crimes are very very bad >> illegal immigrants who lork >> not as bad >> legal migrants who work, obey the law, and have an opportunity for a life in the US and may become a citizen >> we getting somewhere.

Democrats want open borders and make no differentiation with source, skill, behavior, goals of migrants. They simply see more $$ for spending and more names to record ballots for.

---

Haven't we all been told that things are impossible to achieve…..for a multitude of reasons. Anyone can see Trump has just crushed that narrative to non existence.

Do you not think Trump doesn't understand the role in labor foreigners offer? They are agriculture whisperers and are needed. That doesn't mean they can be here in anonymity and just ignor laws. Does mean a group of political party members can just ignor law and get them here….with jobs and they are now eligible for everything US citizens are entitled to? There are no reasons good enough to have illegal aliens in the US.

I am absolutely positive a group of smart people can create a work visa program that these folks with their sponsors could be implement quick and then life goes on.

As for the rest. There are no humanitarian reasons, oh I need to make a wage to support my family, or what ever. These folks need to go back home…..reapply and go through a lawful process.

Maybe these folks can have first look opportunities. I really don't care…..but they need to have a legal purpose to be here and not burden our country.

---

Their solution is getting people off welfare to roof home etc. One guy in this thread recommends low IQ folks 85 and below. My God, can't wait to office in the building that was built by the mentally challenged.

This is going to be a disaster.



…..taking the small wage slaves from the economy is fools play.

Fins Up! said:

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What you have described is a small business. Hardly "corporate." So when I hear the word corporate farms, I know you don't know jack about the economics of modern agricultural systems.

---

I sitting here drinking coffee this morning looking out the window at a farm, but I do appreciate you helping me understand farm economics.

This progress you speak of ends with the death of independent farms. Amazon or Microsoft or similar will grow all the food and do it more economically than I can. Small town folks will move to Dallas and they can start voting democratic. We'll all make more money though.

Lol. That's funny. I totally agree with you. A lot of these people on welfare are useless and will never contribute.

Jack Boyett said:

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Fins Up! said:

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What you have described is a small business. Hardly "corporate." So when I hear the word corporate farms, I know you don't know jack about the economics of modern agricultural systems.

---

I sitting here drinking coffee this morning looking out the window at a farm, but I do appreciate you helping me understand farm economics.

---

Glad to be of help. Sounds like you needed the tutorial.

Where does your buddy farm?

(OMG have you seen how much a cotton stripper costs? Lol)

Quote:

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Most corporate farms are family corporations

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Suuuure....

There's a clear difference between a family farm and a corporate farm.

Cargill advertises as being a family-owned business that produces grain, livestock feed, and other products. They are the farthest thing from being a family farm. They were started by the Cargill's back in the mid-1800's and there's been quite a few family billionaires created along the way, but they/re not a 'family farm' or a 'family business'. They aren't even involved in the business, just shareholders these days.

Cargill has actively worked against the family farm and family corporations by manipulating the market due to their enormity and buying power (and continues to do so today)

flown-the-coop said:

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Think you missed a couple posts about why putting this on employers is a bad idea. A terribly bad and ineffective idea.

---

I believe in holding everyone who is responsible for the situation that we're in accountable.

Agree. It has been against the law, with rather substantial penalties, to knowingly hire illegals.

However, it is nearly impossible for an employer to be certain the I-9 verification documents are authentic.

And challenging a perspective employee's document authentication would likely result in an EEOC complaint, lawsuit and fines.

That's reality. Do you have experience running a business? Particularly a business that may involve laborers and potential documented or undocumented migrant labor? If so, how have you ensured you are 100% compliant?

Are you prepared to go to jail and face a hefty fine if you make a mistake?

flown-the-coop said:

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Agree. It has been against the law, with rather substantial penalties, to knowingly hire illegals.

However, it is nearly impossible for an employer to be certain the I-9 verification documents are authentic.

And challenging a perspective employee's document authentication would likely result in an EEOC complaint, lawsuit and fines.

That's reality. Do you have experience running a business? Particularly a business that may involve laborers and potential documented or undocumented migrant labor? If so, how have you ensured you are 100% compliant?

Are you prepared to go to jail and face a hefty fine if you make a mistake?

---

I've encountered this PLENTY of times with our business with potential employees. Its always been in the back of my mind that there's a potential that my next hire could be an illegal and I could get in trouble, but if they present me with what I perceive to be legit documentation, what am I supposed to do?

flown-the-coop said:

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Agree. It has been against the law, with rather substantial penalties, to knowingly hire illegals.

However, it is nearly impossible for an employer to be certain the I-9 verification documents are authentic.

And challenging a perspective employee's document authentication would likely result in an EEOC complaint, lawsuit and fines.

That's reality. Do you have experience running a business? Particularly a business that may involve laborers and potential documented or undocumented migrant labor? If so, how have you ensured you are 100% compliant?

Are you prepared to go to jail and face a hefty fine if you make a mistake?

---

It's their responsibility to not make mistakes. Why should they get a pass?

I get it's hard, but something being hard doesn't excuse someone from the law.

No Spin Ag said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Agree. It has been against the law, with rather substantial penalties, to knowingly hire illegals.

However, it is nearly impossible for an employer to be certain the I-9 verification documents are authentic.

And challenging a perspective employee's document authentication would likely result in an EEOC complaint, lawsuit and fines.

That's reality. Do you have experience running a business? Particularly a business that may involve laborers and potential documented or undocumented migrant labor? If so, how have you ensured you are 100% compliant?

Are you prepared to go to jail and face a hefty fine if you make a mistake?

---

It's their responsibility to not make mistakes. Why should they get a pass?

I get it's hard, but something being hard doesn't excuse someone from the law.

---

Ok, then I take if you do not and have not run a business, particularly one that may involve laborers and potential documented and undocumented migrant labor?

See post from crowman2010, if I ask folks for the docs, they present the docs, but start to challenge the legitimacy, and reject those I am not comfortable with… they happen to be mostly brown people… you think the EEOC is going to pat me on the back for being diligent in not breaking the law on hiring only those with a right to work? Let's say the pregnant lady I challenged her documents, you think she is going to let it go or see an opportunity to sue for discrimination?

The "something's in life are just hard" internet keyboard jihadists seem to not live in the real world.

The better answer has been stated above. Close the border, kick out the criminals, assess those who are law abiding, and if they have a skill to meet a demand in our labor market then follow the temporary or permanent work visa process. That is also hard work but actually results in a viable solution than "lock up the business owners - that'll teach em".

flown-the-coop said:

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No Spin Ag said:

---

flown-the-coop said:

---

Agree. It has been against the law, with rather substantial penalties, to knowingly hire illegals.

However, it is nearly impossible for an employer to be certain the I-9 verification documents are authentic.

And challenging a perspective employee's document authentication would likely result in an EEOC complaint, lawsuit and fines.

That's reality. Do you have experience running a business? Particularly a business that may involve laborers and potential documented or undocumented migrant labor? If so, how have you ensured you are 100% compliant?

Are you prepared to go to jail and face a hefty fine if you make a mistake?

---

It's their responsibility to not make mistakes. Why should they get a pass?

I get it's hard, but something being hard doesn't excuse someone from the law.

---

Ok, then I take if you do not and have not run a business, particularly one that may involve laborers and potential documented and undocumented migrant labor?

See post from crowman2010, if I ask folks for the docs, they present the docs, but start to challenge the legitimacy, and reject those I am not comfortable with… they happen to be mostly brown people… you think the EEOC is going to pat me on the back for being diligent in not breaking the law on hiring only those with a right to work? Let's say the pregnant lady I challenged her documents, you think she is going to let it go or see an opportunity to sue for discrimination?

The "something's in life are just hard" internet keyboard jihadists seem to not live in the real world.

The better answer has been stated above. Close the border, kick out the criminals, assess those who are law abiding, and if they have a skill to meet a demand in our labor market then follow the temporary or permanent work visa process. That is also hard work but actually results in a viable solution than "lock up the business owners - that'll teach em".

---

I agree with kicking out the criminals and assessing those who are law-abiding, and finding a way to keep them here via a temporary or permanent work visa.

As for the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree, and that's fine; that's what a discussion is all about. At least we found something we can agree on, and that's a positive in my book.

zephyr88 said:

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Quote:

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Most corporate farms are family corporations

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Suuuure....

There's a clear difference between a family farm and a corporate farm.

Cargill advertises as being a family-owned business that produces grain, livestock feed, and other products.

---

Just because there are a few mega-corporations involved in agriculture does not make my assertion incorrect.

Once a farm reaches a certain size, it makes financial sense to incorporate it as a Subchapter S. These are still owned and run as a "family farm", just the structure is no longer a sole proprietorship.

https://www.farmpolicyfacts.org/fact-check-corporate-farms-vs-family-farms/

Quote:

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In fact, the ERS found that 99 percent of U.S. farms were still structured as family farms in 2015, and they account for about 90 percent of farm production.

The report further noted that the few farms organized as nonfamily corporations generally have less than 10 stockholders in other words, they are more Main Street than Wall Street. Hardly the sinister tale being spun by farm foes.

---

Quote:

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I'll give some examples. Lonestar Family Farms. I believe the "family" is from Sunray which is an hour away. I don't know who they are but my cousin works for them and takes care of about 25 pivots locally. 1 pivot my uncle had rented for probably 20 years. They bought out many small farmers. No idea how big the whole operation is. That is a corporate farm.

---

Again, that's economics, not corporations.

In 1952, my dad bought 160 acres with a house, the tractor and equipment to farm it, and paid it off in three years.

In the 1980s, I had to work around 1600 acres to support a family.

I suspect that number is 6000+ acres by now.

Jack Boyett said:

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Fins Up! said:

---

I always laugh also when I hear someone say, "corporate farms." It indicates their level of knowledge of agriculture.

---

I'll give some examples. Lonestar Family Farms. I believe the "family" is from Sunray which is an hour away. I don't know who they are but my cousin works for them and takes care of about 25 pivots locally. 1 pivot my uncle had rented for probably 20 years. They bought out many small farmers. No idea how big the whole operation is. That is a corporate farm.

Another example is farmer that moved in who was partnered with investors from California. Again, bought out many farmers. Size is maybe 20-30k acres. This was fairly recent. It was a little humorous as they bought 2 of every piece of equipment brand new to start out. Everything thing the biggest. It's all parked in pairs at their barn. Like Noah became a farmer. This is what I'm calling corporate farm.

Both of these are negative for a small town. I applaud things that make it harder to farm big just like I'd support something that would hurt Walmart in favor of a small store. It's good to have entrepreneurs.

---

What about "Jones Farms, Inc" where the Jones family owns the land and the "corporation" leases it, has all the equipment, and the labor? That is the vast majority of "corporate farms" out there.


Edit - folks beat me to it, but I'll let it stand.

CanyonAg77 said:

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DarkBrandon01 said:

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How long until we start begging them to come back? Food prices are about to soar.

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…,,,…
If you have problems figuring this out

Farmers get 15.9% of the money you spend for food.

Farm income $575B, profit about $50B, or 91.3% is expense.

Labor is about 12.5 % of expense,

15.9% of food dollar x 91.3% expense x 12.5% = 1.81%

So for every $100 dollars you spend on food, $1.81 goes to pay for farm labor.

So let's assume that getting rid of illegals DOUBLES the price for farm labor.

Your $100 dollars of groceries now costs you $101.81

OMG! FOOD PRICES ARE GOING TO SOAR!!!!!

---

Thank you for the information, that was quite revealing.

No Spin Ag said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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Those numbers are great and all, but you're failing to factor in something we've all seen and experienced first-hand post-COVID that doesn't have a nice little line in those graphs. Corporate greed and opportunism. The instant "increased labor costs" becomes plausible cover for raising prices, up and down the supply chain, they'll ALL absolutely do it, and not just in proportion to the actual rise in labor costs.

And then they'll publicly celebrate it when they announce record profits and margins in the following quarters, just like they did with inflation for the last few years.

Even with all your graphs, you're over simplifying and underestimating the ripple effects. So am I, unfortunately.

---

Good point.

It might be time to buy stock in every meat packing company and any other company that's on the stock market that hires illegals.

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Sarcasm duly noted.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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So 4 years ago we had a shortage of farm workers (not), Biden brings in 10 million more and now that we want to deport them we're forecasting price increases? Are we suddenly producing more acreage? Take a step back.

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Pointing out facts, thank you.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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I'll give some examples. Lonestar Family Farms. I believe the "family" is from Sunray which is an hour away. I don't know who they are but my cousin works for them and takes care of about 25 pivots locally. 1 pivot my uncle had rented for probably 20 years. They bought out many small farmers. No idea how big the whole operation is. That is a corporate farm.

---

Again, that's economics, not corporations.

In 1952, my dad bought 160 acres with a house, the tractor and equipment to farm it, and paid it off in three years.

In the 1980s, I had to work around 1600 acres to support a family.

I suspect that number is 6000+ acres by now.

---

I shouldn't have said corporate. You guys are all hung up on that. I have a corporate farm myself that's too small to support a family. Everyone does that. The question is how to turn the economics you talk about around. The trend that we have been on for about 30 years will eventually eliminate the rural TX panhandle communities. I for one will not just shrug my shoulders and say, Well that's economics.

How about the giant dairies in Hartley and Dallam counties? They're also buying up the irrigated land 100-150 miles away and trucking silage all the way back to the dairy. I would bet every cent I have they're using illegal labor in those dairies. Dairies buy farm ground like the $/ac is an afterthought. Is that fair to the family farm? The deck is already stacked against small operators. Anything that makes it harder for the big "corporate" farm to out compete the little guys is ok in my book. Eliminate all the foreign labor and let the chips fall where they may. Nobody is going to starve.