docb said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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CoachtobeNamed$$$ said:

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docb said:

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MAGA might need to be changed to Make America mow their own lawn again.

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I'm MAGA and that's funny stuff, right there! And I think you are on to something. Every week there is at least 1 of my neighbors getting their lawns mowed….but, come to think of it, I haven't heard a lawn mower in a week!

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Why do we care that people pay other people to mow their lawns again? In fact, why do we care what other people do with their time or their money at all?

Btw, congrats to your neighbors for making enough money to be able to buy some of their time back so they can use it on other things like family, hobbies, helping others, etc.

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The point is they will have to mow their own lawns again when all the "illegals" get deported.

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Again, think many people would be surprised at how many of the lawnmowers are legal and registered as a business.

Also, guys who mow grass all day typically do not spend their nights in organized gang activity.

Now, do they take their paychecks and blow it on beer, absolutely possible as do many caucasian laborers.

You could deport all illegals who entered the country in the last decade and it would barely make a dent, a mere hiccup, on lawn mowing, highway working, fruit picking, and homebuilding.

So in your world, do consumers never change their preferences?

In the real world, consumers switch to chicken if steak is too expensive. Then to beans if chicken costs too much.

Wally and hEB look at their mounting unsold piles of beef and chicken, and lower prices, instead of getting nothing for it

I think you'd be shocked if you really knew the answer to what you are saying. Maybe you just don't want to believe it?

docb said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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CoachtobeNamed$$$ said:

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docb said:

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MAGA might need to be changed to Make America mow their own lawn again.

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I'm MAGA and that's funny stuff, right there! And I think you are on to something. Every week there is at least 1 of my neighbors getting their lawns mowed….but, come to think of it, I haven't heard a lawn mower in a week!

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Why do we care that people pay other people to mow their lawns again? In fact, why do we care what other people do with their time or their money at all?

Btw, congrats to your neighbors for making enough money to be able to buy some of their time back so they can use it on other things like family, hobbies, helping others, etc.

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The point is they will have to mow their own lawns again when all the "illegals" get deported.

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I bet not. Even if they did, seems a really dumb tradeoff to throw billions of dollars down the drain every year so that you can potentially save a few extra bucks by paying a guy who might be illegal to mow your lawn versus doing it yourself or paying a teenager in your neighborhood.

CanyonAg77 said:

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So in your world, do consumers never change their preferences?

In the real world, consumers switch to chicken if steak is too expensive. Then to beans if chicken costs too much.

Wally and hEB look at their mounting unsold piles of beef and chicken, and lower prices, instead of getting nothing for it

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I know you don't realize this, but you're kind of moving the goalposts, and you're doing it in a way that doesn't undermine my points. Rising prices of important things tend to bring the prices of other related, and competitive items with them.

In your hypothetical here, the "cheaper" chicken will still be higher than it was before, and so will the beans. And it won't just be because of actual increases in the costs of the inputs.

If the price of beef doubles tomorrow, the price of chicken doesn't have to stay the same to look good relative to the inflated beef. It can increase significantly and STILL look 'good' by comparison, and the beans will follow. And that's exactly how free markets move.

And all of this usually happens while real-world wages and incomes for average Americans don't rise to match.

I'm not making the case that free markets are bad. I'm simply making the case that people are naive if they think the deportations and tariffs aren't going to cause massive price increases across the board. They absolutely will.

Get your wallets ready.

Would a person consider paying more for their chicken and steak if it meant their daughter at nursing school was not raped and killed on her morning jog? Cause that is the real comparison between Biden/Dem policy and Trump policy.

Quote:

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I'm not making the case that free markets are bad. I'm simply making the case that people are naive if they think the deportations and tariffs aren't going to cause massive price increases across the board. They absolutely will.

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Enforcing immigration law is not a brand-new concept, cheap immigrant labor will be available as it always has been. I've worked in multiple fields over multiple decades that rely heavily on immigrant labor (legal and illegal), and you're vastly overestimating the impact of returning to the days of protecting/securing the border.

Mechanized Ag.

A large cotton growing operation near San Angelo farms 20,000 acres. They employ the dads, uncles, brothers and cousins (7 total) and 2 workers. If they lost 2 workers, you betcha they can still harvest that cotton.

In 1900 before cotton pickers and etc, the same operation would employ 1200 people.

Why not make folks who are able bodied, not working and on the welfare rolls do that work?

aggievaulter07 said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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So in your world, do consumers never change their preferences?

In the real world, consumers switch to chicken if steak is too expensive. Then to beans if chicken costs too much.

Wally and hEB look at their mounting unsold piles of beef and chicken, and lower prices, instead of getting nothing for it

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I know you don't realize this, but you're kind of moving the goalposts, and you're doing it in a way that doesn't undermine my points. Rising prices of important things tend to bring the prices of other related, and competitive items with them.

In your hypothetical here, the "cheaper" chicken will still be higher than it was before, and so will the beans. And it won't just be because of actual increases in the costs of the inputs.

If the price of beef doubles tomorrow, the price of chicken doesn't have to stay the same to look good relative to the inflated beef. It can increase significantly and STILL look 'good' by comparison, and the beans will follow. And that's exactly how free markets move.

And all of this usually happens while real-world wages and incomes for average Americans don't rise to match.

I'm not making the case that free markets are bad. I'm simply making the case that people are naive if they think the deportations and tariffs aren't going to cause massive price increases across the board. They absolutely will.

Get your wallets ready.

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If we do this does Trump lower my fed income tax rate say 5%?

If so, my wallet is ready for food price increases and no more illegals.

I make that deal. Tonight!

Consider the "source". The New Republic makes the Washington Post look like National Review.

docb said:

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HumbleAg04 said:

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We had fruit before Dems let 30 million illegals in.

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We'll still have fruit. It will just cost more. I'm ok with that.

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I stopped at HEB on the way home from work to get a gallon of milk. I took an unscientific stroll through the produce section looking at the stickers and labels. Most of the citrus was domestically produced. With the exception of the Poteet Strawberries, almost all of the rest of the fruit (avocados, grapes, strawberries, blueberries, etc) came from Mexico, Chile, and Peru. A significant amount of vegetables also came from Mexico. In my estimation on any given day more than half of the produce from a grocery store is non-domestically grown. This idea that we can't send illegal aliens home because no one will be here to pick crops is 1) racist and 2) based on a false belief we're growing what we eat.

You just figured out that half the year that's where most of our fruit comes from? Go back in the summer and look where those same fruits with Chile and Peru labels are from.

I am just wondering if anyone knows if they are going to go after grandchildren and great grandchildren of illegal

aliens? If so, I might should be concerned because my great grandfather stowed away on a ship from England

to Galveston in the1800's when he was 15 years old.

Be careful. Someone might turn you in on the birthright declaration! Lol

OldHeathen said:

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I am just wondering if anyone knows if they are going to go after grandchildren and great grandchildren of illegal

aliens? If so, I might should be concerned because my great grandfather stowed away on a ship from England

to Galveston in the1800's when he was 15 years old.

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Mine came legally through Ellis. I'm good.

Did the pole vaulter guy go up to Premium and call for reinforcements?

And America was a wide open, empty country in the 1800s. There were no immigration laws until the 1880s, but you knew that

So 4 years ago we had a shortage of farm workers (not), Biden brings in 10 million more and now that we want to deport them we're forecasting price increases? Are we suddenly producing more acreage? Take a step back.

docb said:

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You just figured out that half the year that's where most of our fruit comes from? Go back in the summer and look where those same fruits with Chile and Peru labels are from.

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I knew it already. Just providing backup

This is great news, but Congress needs to crackdown on illegal employment. Economic opportunity is the main force driving migration. Therefore, since illegal employment is a magnet for illegal immigration, it only makes sense that the United States government must find ways to take that magnet away. We must continue to step up work site enforcement, which requires Congress to fund more law enforcement positions for ICE to actually investigate companies across the nation. But first and foremost, E-Verify needs to be mandatory.

ChoppinDs40 said:

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Really wish we'd have figured out robot fruit pickers first.

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Well, we figured out how to do it with Cotton didn't we? That worked well for a lot of reasons. We can do it with fruit as well.

Thank you for the lecture on economics where you forgot about supply and demand.

Rumpus said:

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Thank you for the lecture on economics where you forgot about supply and demand.

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Whose sock are you?

Rumpus said:

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Thank you for the lecture on economics where you forgot about supply and demand.

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Explain to the economic mere mortals on here where he is wrong.

CanyonAg77 said:

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So in your world, do consumers never change their preferences?

In the real world, consumers switch to chicken if steak is too expensive. Then to beans if chicken costs too much.

Wally and hEB look at their mounting unsold piles of beef and chicken, and lower prices, instead of getting nothing for it

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The consumers become has beans?

It will be interesting to see where all of this ends up. I guess I really don't care that much but I think if US citizens were willing to put in the hard work then these "illegals" wouldn't be snatching up all these labor jobs. They are just filling a void. I think the bigger issue is what caused that void to begin with?

If they're so essential let them get work visas

docb said:

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It will be interesting to see where all of this ends up. I guess I really don't care that much but I think if US citizens were willing to put in the hard work then these "illegals" wouldn't be snatching up all these labor jobs. They are just filling a void. I think the bigger issue is what caused that void to begin with?

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Americans are as lazy as the French, they just don't work so they can't protest like the French. It's that simple.

Well, that and businesses are always looking for ways to save money, and illegals sure do that for them.

docb said:

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It will be interesting to see where all of this ends up. I guess I really don't care that much but I think if US citizens were willing to put in the hard work then these "illegals" wouldn't be snatching up all these labor jobs. They are just filling a void. I think the bigger issue is what caused that void to begin with?

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Entitlements.

As well as entitlements (lower case). A large swath of people think they are too good or too smart for a job like picking fruit or doing landscaping or roofing. It's beneath them, it's a job for foreigners. You have seen that attitude from several poeple here (like Big Fred) in this very thread.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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docb said:

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It will be interesting to see where all of this ends up. I guess I really don't care that much but I think if US citizens were willing to put in the hard work then these "illegals" wouldn't be snatching up all these labor jobs. They are just filling a void. I think the bigger issue is what caused that void to begin with?

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Entitlements.

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Iraq2xVeteran said:

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This is great news, but Congress needs to crackdown on illegal employment. Economic opportunity is the main force driving migration. Therefore, since illegal employment is a magnet for illegal immigration, it only makes sense that the United States government must find ways to take that magnet away. We must continue to step up work site enforcement, which requires Congress to fund more law enforcement positions for ICE to actually investigate companies across the nation. But first and foremost, E-Verify needs to be mandatory.

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See previous posts about the drastically overestimated amount of illegals being employed in the US.

There are certain industries and employers within those industries that are responsible for the largest abuses of hiring undocumented, illegal workers with the sole intent to take advantage of their work status to pay less than market wages. Meat processors are the prime example. This behavior is wrong and the employers should be investigated and prosecuted same as if they were taking similar advantage of workers here legally.

In other industries, such as agriculture, construction, lawn mowing, the laborers are a mix of legal residents, migrant workers with proper permits / visas, and then many undocumented workers. Improvement to guest worker programs, documentation requirements, paths to citizenships would be welcomed by the workers, the employers and the end consumers.

E-Verify is what you would expect of any government program. Ineffective, burdensome and wrought with inefficiencies, errors, etc. Same goes for holding employers liable for a potential employee presenting false documents. Run through the scenario where I have a company and I am now responsible for vetting the citizenship or work authorized status of an employee. Do I need an expert in document authenticity? Maybe DNA test these applicants? Do I only challenge brown applicants on their paperwork? Am I granted immunity from EEOC investigations that will surely come from such a "robust" verification of immigrant applicants?

E-Verify though well-intended is not a great answer.

Finally, let's further playout dealing with the "demand" side before effectively addressing the "supply" side. The result is what you see in NYC where you now have migrants you must support for housing, healthcare and food and you are preventing them from any work and have scared off any potential for work by your threats to lock up anyone who hires them.

I get your perspective, but "illegal employment" is not a root cause. Its a symptom. We need curative treatments not sympathetic care of symptoms.

docb said:

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It will be interesting to see where all of this ends up. I guess I really don't care that much but I think if US citizens were willing to put in the hard work then these "illegals" wouldn't be snatching up all these labor jobs. They are just filling a void. I think the bigger issue is what caused that void to begin with?

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The 90's called and would like their political and economic philosophy back.

Here is a lesson in supply and demand. The demand for new voters and political plantation slaves is high for the left. The open borders provide the supply. All of the rest of the arguments are a smoke screen.