I would like to know the pros and cons. For some background I'm military, Southern Baptist and went to private school.

But when it comes to this matter I don't know what to support. I remember talking to my late mother about this issue in the early 80s when I first heard about it. I think it was Phil Gramm after he switched parties. My Mother said something that has stuck with me. Even while paying my private school tuition she said "they are all our kids." She was against it and never changed her mind.

Scoopen Skwert said:

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I would like to know the pros and cons. For some background I'm military, Southern Baptist and went to private school.

But when it comes to this matter I don't know what to support. I remember talking to my late mother about this issue in the early 80s when I first heard about it. I think it was Phil Gramm after he switched parties. My Mother said something that has stuck with me. Even while paying my private school tuition she said "they are all our kids." She was against it and never changed her mind.

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Let me correct your mother, those are not our kids and they are being held hostage by a broken system that has no incentives to get better.

Growing up in a predominantly black and brown area in the east side of Dallas county( I was the minority as a white kid) . I for one think it is great to provide kids with opportunities to go to better either school districts or private/charter schools if possible. It raises competition between public school districts and only forces them to adapt and not be complacent.

Your kids are yours and mine are mine. You are responsible for yours.

If given a voucher, would your parents have moved you to a private school or different public school?

It depends on how it's done. How do you give people a choice and introduced competition in education, while still providing a public service to the kids with special needs?

Personally, I'd like to see vouchers lead to a revolution in in the education system with lots of alternative schools. There must be a revolution in education. A good alternative school could probably teach in two years what it takes the public system 4

Practically speaking, if you're a poor single mother living in a terrible school district, you need options.

Maybe I'm not following... everyone gets the school voucher right? So no one is being left out? Maybe I need more education on the issue too, but not sure the sentiment that other kids would no longer be supported.

Exactly. Without school choice, only the rich get to go to private schools.

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Scoopen Skwert said:

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I would like to know the pros and cons. For some background I'm military, Southern Baptist and went to private school.

But when it comes to this matter I don't know what to support. I remember talking to my late mother about this issue in the early 80s when I first heard about it. I think it was Phil Gramm after he switched parties. My Mother said something that has stuck with me. Even while paying my private school tuition she said "they are all our kids." She was against it and never changed her mind.

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Let me correct your mother, those are not our kids and they are being held hostage by a broken system that has no incentives to get better.

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I agree in part, but I don't see vouchers fixing anything. Low performing schools are generally full of low performing students from low performing parents.

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Scoopen Skwert said:

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I would like to know the pros and cons. For some background I'm military, Southern Baptist and went to private school.

But when it comes to this matter I don't know what to support. I remember talking to my late mother about this issue in the early 80s when I first heard about it. I think it was Phil Gramm after he switched parties. My Mother said something that has stuck with me. Even while paying my private school tuition she said "they are all our kids." She was against it and never changed her mind.

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Let me correct your mother, those are not our kids and they are being held hostage by a broken system that has no incentives to get better.

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Let's assume Mom was right and they are all our kids. Since the public school system has and is continuing to fail them in terms of actually educating them, it is our duty as their caretakers to ensure they have choices. If that means the public system loses tax revenue, so be it. Perhaps, the public school system will find the incentive to put forth a better product and more will choose to bring back their, I mean our kids!

GAC06 said:

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Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Scoopen Skwert said:

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I would like to know the pros and cons. For some background I'm military, Southern Baptist and went to private school.

But when it comes to this matter I don't know what to support. I remember talking to my late mother about this issue in the early 80s when I first heard about it. I think it was Phil Gramm after he switched parties. My Mother said something that has stuck with me. Even while paying my private school tuition she said "they are all our kids." She was against it and never changed her mind.

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Let me correct your mother, those are not our kids and they are being held hostage by a broken system that has no incentives to get better.

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I agree in part, but I don't see vouchers fixing anything. Low performing schools are generally full of low performing students from low performing parents.

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This! You could equalize education and money today and in 30 years everyone in America will be stratified again almost identically.

Background: grew up in rural America attended small public school.

Taught at charter school in big city, private school in big city, then 19 years at private school in mid size town.


Our public education system is broken. Kids don't learn, teachers don't teach, and many big public schools are diploma factories filled with indoctrination, normalizing weirdness, woke theology, and horrible behavior out of students and teachers alike.

The number of college students who cannot write, do basic math, or think critically yet were honors this and AP that in high school is appalling.

So whatever we can do to take tax dollars out of our bloated school systems, shrink classroom size, teach with accountability, and hold schools accountable, I am all for. Vouchers seem to be the best way to approach this.

Isn't that what private schools are designed for? Other than the scholarships they may offer etc? By definition, private schools want to control their student body (limit it) whether it be by cost, ability of the student, discipline background, religious affiliation etc.

GAC06 said:

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Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Scoopen Skwert said:

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I would like to know the pros and cons. For some background I'm military, Southern Baptist and went to private school.

But when it comes to this matter I don't know what to support. I remember talking to my late mother about this issue in the early 80s when I first heard about it. I think it was Phil Gramm after he switched parties. My Mother said something that has stuck with me. Even while paying my private school tuition she said "they are all our kids." She was against it and never changed her mind.

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Let me correct your mother, those are not our kids and they are being held hostage by a broken system that has no incentives to get better.

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I agree in part, but I don't see vouchers fixing anything. Low performing schools are generally full of low performing students from low performing parents.

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There are always a percentage of students that would do better in a different environment.. it would be a wonderful gift to give to a young person to be able to go to a school without the bad influences where other students focused on academics. It only takes one bad student to disrupt a whole class.

Doesn't mean they're for the rich, there were religiously based private schools in my home town that were much less expensive than the "top-tier" private school and plenty of parents sacrificed to put their kids through them. The student body certainly had objectively wealthy families, but there were plenty of families that you would not have called rich.

Private schools can be looking to control what is taught and how it is taught, it's not just about controlling a student body population.

Urban schools have long been a state run jobs program for otherwise unemployable adults. These state jobs have no accountability and no incentive to change. Competition/choice will allow an opportunity exist to let the market dictate towards accountability with these ISDs where there has been none in the past.

And don't let me get started on how badly the teachers union needs to be completely gutted and done away with.

We home school. Under no circumstance do we support or vote for vouchers.

But at the time she said that schools were about education and not indoctrination.

"Otherwise unemployable adults" I guess private school teachers are otherwise employable? And those teachers that are leaving teaching aren't getting employment?

I will strongly disagree that they are "not our kids." I will agree it's a broken system.

BrazosDog02 said:

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We home school. Under no circumstance do we support or vote for vouchers.

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I support vouchers for homeschools as well, and know plenty of homeschool parents who feel the same way.

P.H. Dexippus said:

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BrazosDog02 said:

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We home school. Under no circumstance do we support or vote for vouchers.

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I support vouchers for homeschools as well, and know plenty of homeschool parents who feel the same way.

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Just cut our taxes. Stop handing out money!

It's actually very simple: Are you or are you not in support of the government being involved in private business in such a way that they provide the private business money and therefore, as to be not only expected but should be demanded for fiscal responsibility, will have oversight of those private entities leading to regulation, which may come in the form of testing, as an example, and another bureaucratic organization to manage the program?

This is not about choice; parents already have the choice to educate their children how they deem fit. This is about the government funding that choice. People who say they don't have a choice because they can't afford it are playing word games.

The amount of money given to those in the voucher program far exceeds the amount we pay in individual property taxes and in same cases will even exceed the amount allotted to the public school for the child's attendance.

People choose private school in part to avoid government interference in their child's education - vouchers invite the government in.

If we want to discuss not taking the taxes from the parents in the first place, I'm on board, but this handout and invitation to have a foot in the door is absurd.

Don't even get me started on the potential implications for homeschoolers.

TomFoolery said:

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Maybe I'm not following... everyone gets the school voucher right? So no one is being left out? Maybe I need more education on the issue too, but not sure the sentiment that other kids would no longer be supported.

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This is absolutely not the case. It's a limited program (there is only so much money allotted for it) where, as of the last proposal, most who currently attend private school will be means tested out. Those who qualify may not be able to even afford the remainder of tuition or be able to get their child to their school of choice.

In addition, part of the concern is that public schools are funded based on attendance. If you have less children enrolled, because they left to take a voucher to a private school, then that's less money for the public school.

So worst case everything stays the same as it is now?

TomFoolery said:

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So worst case everything stays the same as it is now?

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I personally think worse case is vouchers pass but, yeah, sure

In the scenario you provided where individuals are means tested out and the vouchers go to those are the lower end of some range of income (I'm unfamiliar with the means testing level proposed) what's the argument that this results in a negative outcome?

Trying to understand the argument against cause in the circles I'm in it's widely regarded positively.

Vouchers to a set of schools with no government regulations are not going to fix a set of schools being buried under bureaucracy. Abolish TEA, get rid of the STAAR, and return education to local ISDs. Create a state licensing board to facilitate teacher licenses.

The other option I would be okay with is to give every minor in Texas a voucher and it can be used at any school of your choice. If I want my voucher to go to the public school .7 miles from my house, in my neighborhood, that should be my choice. But to get $30,000 in vouchers (3 kids) when I pay about $4,000 in ISD property tax seems like a corrupt shell game to me.

P.H. Dexippus said:

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BrazosDog02 said:

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We home school. Under no circumstance do we support or vote for vouchers.

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I support vouchers for homeschools as well, and know plenty of homeschool parents who feel the same way.

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This makes me utterly disappointed. After all homeschool families fought for, to just start handing freedoms away for a $1,000 (or whatever amount they may settle on)…

GigEmADED said:

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Growing up in a predominantly black and brown area in the east side of Dallas county( I was the minority as a white kid) . I for one think it is great to provide kids with opportunities to go to better either school districts or private/charter schools if possible. It raises competition between public school districts and only forces them to adapt and not be complacent.

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You really think that those parents will be able to afford private even with a voucher? And private schools won't follow with increased tuition?

And if the answer is they can go to a better public school…how are those kids getting there without bussing? I mean on paper it sounds great. But in reality…

It will help a very small amount of people in the public school system. It will mostly just help people with kids already in private school which has been seen where this has already been implemented.

I'm trying to be open to it but I just don't see it working in reality.

tylercsbn9 said:

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GigEmADED said:

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Growing up in a predominantly black and brown area in the east side of Dallas county( I was the minority as a white kid) . I for one think it is great to provide kids with opportunities to go to better either school districts or private/charter schools if possible. It raises competition between public school districts and only forces them to adapt and not be complacent.

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You really think that those parents will be able to afford private even with a voucher? And private schools won't follow with increased tuition?

And if the answer is they can go to a better public school…how are those kids getting there without bussing? I mean on paper it sounds great. But in reality…

It will help a very small amount of people in the public school system. It will mostly just help people with kids already in private school which has been seen where this has already been implemented.

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What will happen is the dodgy charter schools will become dodgy private schools, with less regulations to follow.

I would also like to understand it more. In the surface for me it seems like I will get a voucher for say $10k if and only if I choose to go to another school outside the ISD I reside in. So I could choose to pay for a Private School with that voucher. Do we not think the private school which is a private business will then just raise their prices so the cost savings for me would be a net $0? How does that produce a positive outcome? What am I missing?

bearcat said:

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I would also like to understand it more. In the surface for me it seems like I will get a voucher for say $10k if and only if I choose to go to another school outside the ISD I reside in. So I could choose to pay for a Private School with that voucher. Do we not think the private school which is a private business will then just raise their prices so the cost savings for me would be a net $0? How does that produce a positive outcome? What am I missing?

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It reminds me of the government getting more involved in the loan business and the explosion of the cost of college.

tylercsbn9 said:

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bearcat said:

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I would also like to understand it more. In the surface for me it seems like I will get a voucher for say $10k if and only if I choose to go to another school outside the ISD I reside in. So I could choose to pay for a Private School with that voucher. Do we not think the private school which is a private business will then just raise their prices so the cost savings for me would be a net $0? How does that produce a positive outcome? What am I missing?

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It reminds me of the government getting more involved in the loan business and the explosion of the cost of college.

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A lot of it has to do with how education is funded in Texas.

Local ISD collects property taxes in its boundaries.

The state says "You can only keep $6,160 per kid, per day they attend school, as a Weighted Average Daily Attendance (WADA). Anything over that is paid into the permanent school fund (state controlled) by Local ISD." If the local ISD does not collect enough from property taxes, the state will make a payment to them from the Permanent School Fund.

Then the state allocates money from sales tax and the lottery to also fund education. The feds kick in some too, depending if the campus is Title 1 or how many SPED students they have. Most schools will bring in about $9,000/child per year, based on their attendance and any special designations.

The state pays that $3,000 difference out of the Permanent School Fund first, which is primarily funded by recapture revenue at this point (any districts who make too much in property taxes).

If recapture ends up funding everything, which it has in the last few years with tax values skyrocketing and WADA dropping like a rock coming out of COVID, the state can keep all the lottery and sales tax money meant for education. It has not been constitutionally allocated to the Permanent School Fund. This is how our surplus grew to $32 billion. It was the "excess" from education.

All while this is going on, Governor Abbott and the TEA puts even more pressure on public schools to create regulations on how they HAVE to spend the pittance of money they are allowed to keep. Most schools took on 6 figures worth of required security changes while getting $15,000/campus. STAAR became computerized so districts had to invest in new WiFi infrastructure & Chromebooks just to take a test required by the State.

Now Governor Abbott wants to improve education by fixing nothing at public schools, but by taking money in the surplus and giving it to private schools which has absolutely zero state regulations - that's why they aren't failing!

At the end of the day the property tax money is the one thing they can't touch as it has to stay with the local ISD or go into the Permanent School Fund only to be used on education.