I know you are pro Ukraine. Are you also ok with us sending cash so they can still provide social programs and pensions?

backintexas2013 said:

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I know you are pro Ukraine. Are you also ok with us sending cash so they can still provide social programs and pensions?

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No. I just want to send them weapons to kill human garbage (Russia soldiers) until they leave..

Teslag said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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I know you are pro Ukraine. Are you also ok with us sending cash so they can still provide social programs and pensions?

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No. I just want to send them weapons to kill human garbage (Russia soldiers) until they leave..

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Esto to infinity and beyond.

But we are doing both.

backintexas2013 said:

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But we are doing both.

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Yep and there's a lot I don't like that we are doing. That's why I think the absolute best path for everyone is to freeze current lines, let Ukraine in NATO, and this is over for good.

Yes. Forgets we won the Cold War and it was clearly indicated on Christmas Day 1991. Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century. (In fact Marxism's refuge became our campuses)

Russia, unlike China, attempted to modify and change. China never did reform formally, but we have treated them more openly this century than Russia. Russia didn't do a Tiananmen, but was treated as if did, and China did, and its just passe. Arguably real outreach opportunities have been lost.

It is us that has maintained a Cold War stance -- not them. We drove them back into it. Rebuffed some real opportunities, apparently from Cheney's influence, after 9/11.

Quote:

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Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century.

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Russia may not be communist but they were communist for so long that a lot of its brutal and ugly parts are so ingrained in their culture and identity now that its resulted in a current broken and ugly culture. Combine that with the typical Russian paranoid attitude and it's a bad combo.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century.

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Russia may not be communist but they were communist for so long that a lot of its brutal and ugly parts are so ingrained in their culture and identity now that its resulted in a current broken and ugly culture. Combine that with the typical Russian paranoid attitude and it's a bad combo.

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Russia has been this way for 400 years. Communism just kills any sense of morality running up the body counts to extreme levels

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century.

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Russia may not be communist but they were communist for so long that a lot of its brutal and ugly parts are so ingrained in their culture and identity now that its resulted in a current broken and ugly culture. Combine that with the typical Russian paranoid attitude and it's a bad combo.

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That is very true. But our demeanor in the W period certainly did nothing to step that back -- and at a time when real opportunity and a worthy unsympathetic common enemy was at work. What you say is true --- in fact, it is as much a product of where they are and history. Tsarist Russia regularly behaved the way you describe; this isn't any kind of Russia is just some poor kick-around take.

What has happened though, is we have allowed ourselves to get involved in border-to-border disputes well overseas too specifically, which was more the British Empire's experience. The slavs and the balkans regions both have always been like this to varying degrees. That's why you must use your leverage to prevent things, not keep them going.

titan said:

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Yes. Forgets we won the Cold War and it was clearly indicated on Christmas Day 1991. Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century. (In fact Marxism's refuge became our campuses)

Russia, unlike China, attempted to modify and change. China never did reform formally, but we have treated them more openly this century than Russia. Russia didn't do a Tiananmen, but was treated as if did, and China did, and its just passe. Arguably real outreach opportunities have been lost.

It is us that has maintained a Cold War stance -- not them. We drove them back into it. Rebuffed some real opportunities, apparently from Cheney's influence, after 9/11.

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Cheney was a pox on this nation from the moment he got office. Unfortunately, there were too many who put their loyalty to their party over common sense to see just how wrong he was at the time.

As for Russia, they aren't victims (Putin wouldn't allow themselves to be seen that way), and they definitely don't treat us like the European countries, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. ad nauseum. The people (non-racists, bigots, misogynists, etc.) seem great, and I'm sure there are many good qualities about the government except when it comes to Putin invading and attacking others.

It's hard to see a murderer in a positive light.

After all, no matter what life throws at anyone, when they choose to murder, that's their choice, and it's on them. There are many others in the same, or similar, position who make other, non-lethal, choices.

B-1 83 said:

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Gaeilge said:

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ELON MUSK JOINED TRUMP'S CALL WITH ZELENSKY - AXIOS.

— FinancialJuice (@financialjuice) November 8, 2024

Oh...and Elon was on the call as well. I'm thinking this call consisted of "You're not going to see another dime and you better be ready to sit your ass down."

Your thoughts?

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Do people really think Trump will cut Ukraine off?
Bwahahahahahaha……get ready to be seriously disappointed. He's not letting Putin have all of Ukraine. Fortunately, he smarter than the TexAgs Putin lovers.

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Quoted for posterity.

Agreed. Prior to 2020 I didn't care about Russia. I didn't even think Putin was that bad of a guy. But I deployed that year and spent a lot of time in Syria and saw up close how they operated. Just an absolutely terrible and brutal thing with no care at all about civilians, even the ones on their side. We aren't them. We aren't equal to them. They are garbage. So that's when I started taking a deep dive into reading and educating myself about Russian history, its culture, the Cold War, all of it. Because on a deployment you have tons of time. And that's how I used mine.

People say I'm an Ukraine fan boy. I'm not. I'm just really see Russia for the **** stain on the world that it is.

Very much believe the claim it would not have happened under Trump is objectively true. Contradictory weasel messages were not sent.

A good case can be made Biden and Kamala indeed gave Russia reason to believe two things (1) they were going to pull Ukraine into NATO, and (2) Paradoxically, we wouldn't be especially forceful opposing an `incursion'. Between those two stupidities, they went for broke.

Mentioned earlier what we are dealing with is the Russian version of how we see Cuba --- a direct neighbor is becoming the proxy of a superpower that has sent the message it is an enemy. They won't ever be agreeable to it staying that way. We would have taken out Cuba by now if it shared a border directly --- as it is we have confidence rightly in the utter disparity and naval difference.

Teslag said:

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People say I'm an Ukraine fan boy. I'm not. I'm just really see Russia for the **** stain on the world that it is.

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I haven't seen many if any people call you a Ukraine fan boy. If anything people say you are too emotionally invested in seeing Russia defeated, and obviously the dead Russians that come with that.

To the point that it comes off as clouding your judgement in how much involvement the U.S. should have in that side of the world. Had you been saying EU should help Ukraine more so you get your dead Russian fix, and America can focus on our domestic issues before we get back into world police mode, then you would have a point.

We want America first and Russia defeated second. You come off as wanting Russia defeated first and America second, especially when you keep harping on Ukraine joining NATO. That directly puts America at an unnecessary risk that is completely irrational to those that are not emotionally invested against Russia..

Teslag said:

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Agreed. Prior to 2020 I didn't care about Russia. I didn't even think Putin was that bad of a guy. But I deployed that year and spent a lot of time in Syria and saw up close how they operated. Just an absolutely terrible and brutal thing with no care at all about civilians, even the ones on their side. We aren't them. We aren't equal to them. They are garbage. So that's when I started taking a deep dive into reading and educating myself about Russian history, its culture, the Cold War, all of it. Because on a deployment you have tons of time. And that's how I used mine.

People say I'm an Ukraine fan boy. I'm not. I'm just really see Russia for the **** stain on the world that it is.

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If you look at Tsarist Russia, and their shenanigans in the Balkans and slavs then, you will see that continuity. But this is precisely the point --- mush-headed bellicose diplomacy by the Bidenites toward Russia wasn't going to work the way it would a West European country. The assumptions they won't choose escalation can easily be false.

Fortunately we don't have to worry about it. The most unfit admin for the task has just been ousted and the world is already treating it past-tense. If the incoming one is unable to resolve it, then the best was tried. Its just a shame we didn't deter 2022 with our vast backstage leverage, but almost greenlighted it. Similar state dept folly partly drew Saddam into the Iraq invasion. Gave the impression it wouldn't cost.

You've always been honest and consistent in your belief about that we shouldn't be financially involved without adhering to Russian propaganda and BS. That's appreciated. I've also been consistent in saying that Ukraine in NATO is good because it ensures peace. Russia is often viewed as some rabid animal that will act irrationally when backed into a corner. They won't. That's not what Russian culture is. They are a bully. They like attacking what they perceive as weak or easily abused. It's why rape is a problem in their country. It's why their oligarchs act the way they do. It's why their mob acts the way it does. Bullying is a part of who they are as a people.

Russia won't attack a NATO country because they don't find it easy or doable.

No Spin Ag said:

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titan said:

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Yes. Forgets we won the Cold War and it was clearly indicated on Christmas Day 1991. Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century. (In fact Marxism's refuge became our campuses)

Russia, unlike China, attempted to modify and change. China never did reform formally, but we have treated them more openly this century than Russia. Russia didn't do a Tiananmen, but was treated as if did, and China did, and its just passe. Arguably real outreach opportunities have been lost.

It is us that has maintained a Cold War stance -- not them. We drove them back into it. Rebuffed some real opportunities, apparently from Cheney's influence, after 9/11.

---

Cheney was a pox on this nation from the moment he got office. Unfortunately, there were too many who put their loyalty to their party over common sense to see just how wrong he was at the time.

As for Russia, they aren't victims (Putin wouldn't allow themselves to be seen that way), and they definitely don't treat us like the European countries, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. ad nauseum. The people (non-racists, bigots, misogynists, etc.) seem great, and I'm sure there are many good qualities about the government except when it comes to Putin invading and attacking others.

It's hard to see a murderer in a positive light.

After all, no matter what life throws at anyone, when they choose to murder, that's their choice, and it's on them. There are many others in the same, or similar, position who make other, non-lethal, choices.

---

Very good post. One thing though, is a bit uncomfortable about getting too anthropomorphic in comparisons between nations resorting to war. Saying nations choosing "murder" when doing invasion or war is just way too off-cuff. Iraq 2003 and Libya 2011 don't look particularly good or very defensive driven. It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc. To say its choosing murder just seems to complicate alot of our more arbitrary escalations as well.

Quote:

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It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc

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This. I'm really struggling with the thought that Biden instigated the war to cover tracks left by him and Hunter, and to enrich the players in the war machine.

Glad you're back Titan.

Then you must hate Europe for doing business with Russia and still doing business with them.

backintexas2013 said:

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Then you must hate Europe for doing business with Russia and still doing business with them.

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Yes, actually I do. They should have cut off Russia from start and repealed their green BS and been allowed to buy our LPG and not shutters their nuclear industry.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Quote:

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It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc

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This. I'm really struggling with the thought that Biden instigated the war to cover tracks left by him and Hunter, and to enrich the players in the war machine.

Glad you're back Titan.

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The tensions in that region go back way before Biden was even VP. Much of it goes back even to the Holodimor. Which occurred before Biden was even born.

Joe Biden: "My family barely escaped the holomodor. The train conductor on the Francis Scott Key bridge used to call me 'that holomodor kid!"

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Quote:

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It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc

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This. I'm really struggling with the thought that Biden instigated the war to cover tracks left by him and Hunter, and to enrich the players in the war machine.

Glad you're back Titan.

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"Instigated" is going to far. Its more subtle -- more like Iraq 1990. Dumb and obtuse handling gave the impression that it wouldn't be punished in the worst way. Biden sent the message that a small "gulp" of land by Russia might be okay. He did it twice in fact, if recall correctly.

Now as to what you were saying, it is probably unfortunately correct to say we have not especially desired peace. We have not used our leverage that way since 2020. More toward facilitating and continuing.

Teslag said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Quote:

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It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc

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This. I'm really struggling with the thought that Biden instigated the war to cover tracks left by him and Hunter, and to enrich the players in the war machine.

Glad you're back Titan.

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The tensions in that region go back way before Biden was even VP. Much of it goes back even to the Holodimor. Which occurred before Biden was even born.

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Correct. But this goes to the British Empire and how they had to constantly manipulate or try to events in Eastern Europe and the Mideast. Do we want to be saddled with having to solve the Ukraine/Russia split that pre-dates the Soviet Union and even the Holodimor?

That seems the real issue -- we have made ourselves too directly invested (the corruption angle especially-- "invested" is now a key word. )

titan said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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titan said:

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Yes. Forgets we won the Cold War and it was clearly indicated on Christmas Day 1991. Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century. (In fact Marxism's refuge became our campuses)

Russia, unlike China, attempted to modify and change. China never did reform formally, but we have treated them more openly this century than Russia. Russia didn't do a Tiananmen, but was treated as if did, and China did, and its just passe. Arguably real outreach opportunities have been lost.

It is us that has maintained a Cold War stance -- not them. We drove them back into it. Rebuffed some real opportunities, apparently from Cheney's influence, after 9/11.

---

Cheney was a pox on this nation from the moment he got office. Unfortunately, there were too many who put their loyalty to their party over common sense to see just how wrong he was at the time.

As for Russia, they aren't victims (Putin wouldn't allow themselves to be seen that way), and they definitely don't treat us like the European countries, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. ad nauseum. The people (non-racists, bigots, misogynists, etc.) seem great, and I'm sure there are many good qualities about the government except when it comes to Putin invading and attacking others.

It's hard to see a murderer in a positive light.

After all, no matter what life throws at anyone, when they choose to murder, that's their choice, and it's on them. There are many others in the same, or similar, position who make other, non-lethal, choices.

---

Very good post. One thing though, is a bit uncomfortable about getting too anthropomorphic in comparisons between nations resorting to war. Saying nations choosing "murder" when doing invasion or war is just way too off-cuff. Iraq 2003 and Libya 2011 don't look particularly good or very defensive driven. It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc. To say its choosing murder just seems to complicate alot of our more arbitrary escalations as well.

---

You're not wrong, but I really only meant Putin. We have way too many clusters, this century alone, to speak of. If America is good at anything is starting things on the wrong foot and ending them on an even wronger foot.

And, yes, it is good to have you back. We haven't always seen eye to eye but it's always been nothing but respectful. You can't ask for more than that.

LFG!!

No Spin Ag said:

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titan said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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titan said:

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Yes. Forgets we won the Cold War and it was clearly indicated on Christmas Day 1991. Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century. (In fact Marxism's refuge became our campuses)

Russia, unlike China, attempted to modify and change. China never did reform formally, but we have treated them more openly this century than Russia. Russia didn't do a Tiananmen, but was treated as if did, and China did, and its just passe. Arguably real outreach opportunities have been lost.

It is us that has maintained a Cold War stance -- not them. We drove them back into it. Rebuffed some real opportunities, apparently from Cheney's influence, after 9/11.

---

Cheney was a pox on this nation from the moment he got office. Unfortunately, there were too many who put their loyalty to their party over common sense to see just how wrong he was at the time.

As for Russia, they aren't victims (Putin wouldn't allow themselves to be seen that way), and they definitely don't treat us like the European countries, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. ad nauseum. The people (non-racists, bigots, misogynists, etc.) seem great, and I'm sure there are many good qualities about the government except when it comes to Putin invading and attacking others.

It's hard to see a murderer in a positive light.

After all, no matter what life throws at anyone, when they choose to murder, that's their choice, and it's on them. There are many others in the same, or similar, position who make other, non-lethal, choices.

---

Very good post. One thing though, is a bit uncomfortable about getting too anthropomorphic in comparisons between nations resorting to war. Saying nations choosing "murder" when doing invasion or war is just way too off-cuff. Iraq 2003 and Libya 2011 don't look particularly good or very defensive driven. It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc. To say its choosing murder just seems to complicate alot of our more arbitrary escalations as well.

---

You're not wrong, but I really only meant Putin. We have way too many clusters, this century alone, to speak of. If America is good at anything is starting things on the wrong foot and ending them on an even wronger foot.

And, yes, it is good to have you back. We haven't always seen eye to eye but it's always been nothing but respectful. You can't ask for more than that.

---

Thank you. As for the bold, are you being too harsh on us? I think we sometimes get that part right. ;-)

titan said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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titan said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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titan said:

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Yes. Forgets we won the Cold War and it was clearly indicated on Christmas Day 1991. Our government and media persisting in failing to realize that Russia is no longer communist is a big part of the problems this century. (In fact Marxism's refuge became our campuses)

Russia, unlike China, attempted to modify and change. China never did reform formally, but we have treated them more openly this century than Russia. Russia didn't do a Tiananmen, but was treated as if did, and China did, and its just passe. Arguably real outreach opportunities have been lost.

It is us that has maintained a Cold War stance -- not them. We drove them back into it. Rebuffed some real opportunities, apparently from Cheney's influence, after 9/11.

---

Cheney was a pox on this nation from the moment he got office. Unfortunately, there were too many who put their loyalty to their party over common sense to see just how wrong he was at the time.

As for Russia, they aren't victims (Putin wouldn't allow themselves to be seen that way), and they definitely don't treat us like the European countries, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. ad nauseum. The people (non-racists, bigots, misogynists, etc.) seem great, and I'm sure there are many good qualities about the government except when it comes to Putin invading and attacking others.

It's hard to see a murderer in a positive light.

After all, no matter what life throws at anyone, when they choose to murder, that's their choice, and it's on them. There are many others in the same, or similar, position who make other, non-lethal, choices.

---

Very good post. One thing though, is a bit uncomfortable about getting too anthropomorphic in comparisons between nations resorting to war. Saying nations choosing "murder" when doing invasion or war is just way too off-cuff. Iraq 2003 and Libya 2011 don't look particularly good or very defensive driven. It seems more useful to think in terms of how much of a given war is driven by self-enrichment, paranoid reaction, simply response to attack, etc. To say its choosing murder just seems to complicate alot of our more arbitrary escalations as well.

---

You're not wrong, but I really only meant Putin. We have way too many clusters, this century alone, to speak of. If America is good at anything is starting things on the wrong foot and ending them on an even wronger foot.

And, yes, it is good to have you back. We haven't always seen eye to eye but it's always been nothing but respectful. You can't ask for more than that.

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Thank you. As for the bold, are you being too harsh on us? I think we sometimes get that part right. ;-)

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Thanks for the reminder. I needed that.

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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For those of you saying get Ukraine into NATO.

lol

And so it starts:

JD Vance says US could drop support for NATO if Europe tries to regulate Elon Musk’s platforms https://t.co/LlkCthcOTv

— Caroline de Gruyter (@CarolineGruyter) November 9, 2024

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I've got no problem with this. Nor do I have problems forcing NATO members to step up more in defense spending.

That's plain Ole good pokitiking

Trump is very smart than what y'all think, he's not going to allow Putin but not through war. He's not in for all this unnecessary spending cause the war is actually avoidable from the start.

Trump is not about to totally cut off Ukraine. He might even up the weapons ante and targets to send Putin a message and encourage genuine negotiations. Monetarily I can sure see money being tied to loans or some sort of trade agreements.

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Artorias said:

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I really wish these threads didn't always devolve into "if Putin had never invaded, there wouldn't be a problem!"... or "Putin can end the war whenever he wants by taking his forces out of UKE!"

Yes, we all know that, Captain Obvious. Those statements are meaningless and irrelevant because Putin did invade and he is never going to just pick up and go home. How about we focus on actual potential solutions to end the war that live in reality.

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Uke fanbois are essentially emotionally attached to Ukraine winning.

It's why they always bring it up. It is a moral imperative we keep going for their wholeness. Despite the objective analysis of "what in the **** are we even doing there", they cannot let go.

Thank God we have the adults back in charge to stop this madness.

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Warhawks will not be in the administration.

#BREAKING: President-elect Trump announces Mike Pompeo and Nikki Haley will not be in his administration pic.twitter.com/BUbZPVEb6b

— Eric Daugherty (@EricLDaugh) November 9, 2024