Companies paying for the environmental damages that their power plants create

1,088 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 1 hr ago by Not Coach Jimbo
BusterAg
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AG
So the idea is that companies should have to pay a fine for all of the environmental damage that they create. The problem is that, for polluters, society bears the brunt of the costs, but the power company gets all of the financial benefit.

That is the idea behind carbon credits. It's not a bad idea.

The problem with a tax on carbon emissions though is that we cannot measure the damage that has been done to the environment from CO2 emissions very well.

So, my solution is this. Start just tracking CO2 emissions, and start measuring sea temperature changes in 2025. But, make the temperature changes tracked by like 20 worldwide thermometer stations that are audited by a panel of five scientists, 2 of which are picked by the power companies, 2 are picked by some environmental PAC, and the 5th one picked by Thermo Fisher.

For every 0.1 degree up that the annual sea surface temperature rises over the last high water mark, you assign a penalty with a really high price tag, like $500B. Then, you divide the total increase in CO2 emitted in the atmosphere by the total CO2 released by each power plant for their share of those emissions that they don't buy credits for.

Set the high water mark as the highest average sea temperature on record.

So, for example, if the temperature rises 0.1 degrees over the high-water mark, and total tons of CO2 emitted worldwide since 2025 was 50 billion tons, the penalty of emitting one ton of CO2 since 2025 would be $10.

That would put the worst polluting power plants in the US, which put out about 20 million tons a year, with penalties of around $200 million per 0.1 degree increase. An average NG power plant might put out about 3 million tons a year, so that penalty would be $30 million.

So you can quibble with the numbers, but the penalties wouldn't be that great unless we see something like a 2 degree change over the high water mark. You make the power companies put their money where their mouth is.

This way power plants have to pay for their contribution to actual changes in temperature caused by their specific CO2 emissions. You get the power plants to pay for the environmental costs that they create. This would obviously have to replace all of the emissions costs for CO2 for the country.

Someone check my math to see if I am way off. But, I'm more interested in what people think about the concept of making power plants pay for thier environmental costs?
C@LAg
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shocking. b/c electricity

also

Someone check my math to see if I am way off.

aTmAg
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AG
Except that lower temperatures are more dangerous than higher temperatures. So why not argue that we pay these companies for the external benefit they provide rather than assume they impose an external cost?
MemphisAg1
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AG
The climate is gradually changing, as it has since the beginning of time.

Man made climate change is a fraud pushed on society by leftists for the purpose of redistributing wealth.
TRADUCTOR
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Carbon credits are magical. Awesome idea to use magic to control natural cosmic earth cycles.
When The Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro -HST
FbgTxAg
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AG
What the actual F???

When lithium mining companies start paying for their environmental destruction - we can have a conversation.

Until then, you can shut the FU.

Carbon Dioxide is plant food.
Catag94
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AG
Because it's a known fact that the sea temp is only tied to CO2.

This is beyond ignorant!
sam callahan
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1) those costs will get passed to the consumer

2) Suppose fossil power plants were the main driver and the relationship was linear and simple. Every year I should pay more because China and India are building more fossil plants?
agent-maroon
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AG
And how are you determining an accurate year to year "temperature change"? Who determines the optimal world temperature? How can you assure a world temperature target that is equitable for everyone?

WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS WHO FOOT THE BILL FOR THIS BULLSH*T?
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BusterAg
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AG
agent-maroon said:

And how are you determining an accurate year to year "temperature change"? Who determines the optimal world temperature? How can you assure a world temperature target that is equitable for everyone?

WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS WHO FOOT THE BILL FOR THIS BULLSH*T?
You get the temperature changes measured audited by a panel that includes power company scientists, green scientists, and Thermo Fisher, who has a vested interest in producing accurate temperature measures.

Also, since this will replace any plan for emission taxes, and current federal cap and trade plans, emission taxes would actually go down at first, and would only increase if we see a significant change to the high water mark, something like 1 degree F over the current annual high temperature.

It is likely to be net neutral for the first 5 years or so, and only really increase if we see significant global changes.

If we have one out-of-the-ordinary year, it would set a high water mark that would never be matched again.

You could control for things like a single temp station throwing off the averages due to changes in currents.

You could work through the issues. My question is, what do you think about the concept? Only tax CO2 emissions if they really do cause significant change, and only tax the companies that caused it by their specific contribution to the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. If sea temperatures don't rise substantially, this will actually be a significant tax cut for the power industry.

It makes both sides put their money where their mouth is. Tax cut for no significant sea temperature rise, huge tax increase for significant, constant sea temperature rise. Let people put money behind their beliefs.

I don't think the greenies would go for it, because I don't think they really believe what they are selling.
Ag87H2O
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AG
You going to fine every human being and animal on the planet for breathing too?

Or every volcano that erupts?

Or every person who clears a field or cuts down a tree?

Or the sun when it decides to vary output?

It is folly to think we are smart enough to calculate or even know every variable that impacts CO2 levels and folly to think we control it.
agent-maroon
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AG
Lots of words without answering any questions. Here's my answer - no
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BusterAg
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AG
agent-maroon said:

Lots of words without answering any questions. Here's my answer - no
What about just the basic concept: no significant sea temperature change, no carbon tax, ever, and a significant reduction in overall environmental taxes.

Significant sea temperature change, high carbon taxes.

The details would not be hard to iron out.
VaultingChemist
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AG
Watch this video and learn from one of the primary climate change researchers in Australia.

Carbon dioxide is not a major contributor to climate change, so why should companies, and eventually consumers, pay a carbon fine?

CanyonAg77
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AG
Short answer: No

Long answer: Does nothing but rip off US consumer for hoax, does nothing to fix the real problem: India and China
BusterAg
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AG
VaultingChemist said:

Watch this video and learn from one of the primary climate change researchers in Australia.

Carbon dioxide is not a major contributor to climate change, so why should companies, and eventually consumers, pay a carbon fine?


Because there won't be any real climate change. If there is no real climate change, there won't be any fine, there will be a tax break.
Ol Rock
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AG
The more you fine the companies, the more they charge their customers. Essentiallythis is a tax or a payment to a special interest group.
pfo
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AG
The electric company generating the power or the coal, oil and gas and refining companies producing the fossil fuels, shouldn't be fined. The people using the electricity and fossil fuels should be fined. It's their demand that's causing the producers to produce. Realistically speaking, the end user pays all fines because all costs are passed on to the consumer. But having the end user directly pay any fines, would result in zero fines because any politican supporting artificially higher energy costs, would be voted out of office.
BTKAG97
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AG
CO2 is a life sustaining compound and is not a pollutant.
Not Coach Jimbo
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As already aluded in this thread, you can't contribute and decide how much of the sea temp change is done by the power company vs other causes.

They could cut carbon emissions by 100% and you wouldn't know that it was making a difference.

Are we going to fine them if a couple volcanoes erupt and cause a spike in temps? Do they get a rebate if temps drop because a volcano erupts and the ash blocks out the sun?

Liberal ideas that are not thought out very far or applied to the real world scenarios ver 8billion11.
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