Double Diamond said:

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Velvet Jones said:

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Tucker is a journalist like I'm a neurosurgeon. He's an entertainer at best? And often a complete loon


That BSC fake historian saying Hitler, Tojo, and Stalin weren't so bad but the real evil SOB was...Winston Churchill?

GTFO.

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Not what Cooper said.

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Here's a pretty good run down of how comically bad Cooper's take is:

https://freebeacon.com/culture/no-churchill-was-not-the-villain/

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The historian Darryl Cooper has argued in an interview on Tucker Carlson's show that Winston Churchill "was the chief villain of World War II," which would be both interesting and indeed shocking were his thesis not based on such staggering ignorance and disregard for historical fact that it is safe to disregard completely.

Cooper's first argument was that Churchill "was primarily responsible for that war becoming what it did, something other than an invasion of Poland." Yet in the moment that Adolf Hitler invaded Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg at dawn on May 10, 1940, Winston Churchill was not even prime minister. Unless Mr. Cooper is arguing that from his position as First Lord of the Admiraltythe head of Britain's navyChurchill was somehow able to force Hitler to unleash Blitzkrieg in the West, his first argument falls to the ground.

Hitler had planned his surprise attack through the Ardennesthe "Sickle-cut" maneuverwith senior generals such as Erich von Manstein, Erwin Rommel, and Gerd von Rundstedt several months before the attack took place. They bear responsibility "for that war becoming what it did," not Churchill. Furthermore, they also bear full responsibility for the unprovoked invasion of neighboring Poland itself, about which Cooper and Carlson were silent.

In April 1939, when Churchill was not even in the cabinet, the British government guaranteed Poland's security, so Hitler had no right to be surprised when Britain went to war with Germany when he flagrantly disregarded that guarantee.

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It goes on with example after example of the complete and utter BS that Tucker was promoting by adulating this moron.

How was Tucker "adulating" him?

Is everyone you disagree with a moron?

Look, I don't agree with his Churchill take, although I find the perspective interesting. What I do know is Cooper is more well read on the topic then most of the people calling him a moron.

The fact that the Germans had a military plan for invading Belgium and France is kind of irrelevant. We've had plans in place for invading Russia for 80 years. That certainly doesn't mean we intend to use them.

Silent For Too Long said:

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How was Tucker "adulating" him?

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Here:

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When Carlson commended Cooper's "belief in accuracy and honesty," it provided the only comic moment in the whole interview, unless one also counts Carlson's estimation that Cooperof whom I confess I had not hitherto heardis "the most important historian in the United States."

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Quote:

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Is everyone you disagree with a moron?

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No. But Tucker Carlson is.

Hmm. Fascinating. I can tell you are a real deep thinker. Fully capable of understanding the complexities and nuances of history.

You have me convinced.

Silent For Too Long said:

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How was Tucker "adulating" him?

Is everyone you disagree with a moron?

Look, I don't agree with his Churchill take, although I find the perspective interesting. What I do know is Cooper is more well read on the topic then most of the people calling him a moron.

The fact that the Germans had a military plan for invading Belgium and France is kind of irrelevant. We've had plans in place for invading Russia for 80 years. That certainly doesn't mean we intend to use them.

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The Nazi's were the worst when it came to World War 2. Japanese next. Churchill is probably near the bottom half of any reputable list and I don't care if the Germans wanted peace or not. They signed a peace treaty with the Soviets and we see how that worked out. They promised not to expand after the Munich Conference and did so anyways.

The Russians were pretty evil during World War 2 as well.

Unless you think raping millions of women and nailing them to barn doors is super awesome?

Silent For Too Long said:

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Hmm. Fascinating. I can tell you are a real deep thinker. Fully capable of understanding the complexities and nuances of history.

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Apparently, better able to understand history than Tucker and his fans.

One of the oddest things about WW2 is how " THE ALLIES TO DEFEND POLISH SOVEREIGNTY" and immediately declared war on Germany once Germany invaded Poland.

Years later Russia would take Poland as a puppet state and absorb their eastern provinces, without a word being said.

Silent For Too Long said:

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The Russians were pretty evil during World War 2 as well.

Unless you think raping millions of women and nailing them to barn doors is super awesome?

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But were they worse than Churchill?

They'd be on my list of "significantly more evil than Churchill" list as well.

Why didn't Churchill declare war on Russia when they invaded Poland?

Why did Churchill put German Jews fleeing persecution into concentration camps?

Would the world have been better off if they Allies had stayed out of it and let the Russians and Germans beat each other to a pulp?

Silent For Too Long said:

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Why didn't Churchill declare war on Russia when they invaded Poland?

Why did Churchill put German Jews fleeing persecution into concentration camps?

Would the world have been better off if they Allies had stayed out of it and let the Russians and Germans beat each other to a pulp?

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Do you know the answer to the first two questions?

i only knew of Martyr Made because Dave Smith has referred to his Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem podcast series. whenever he talks about it, he says it's several hours (i think 30???) and while it interests me, i ain't got time for that.

i will say that Israel/Palestine is the one area where i really don't agree with Smith on. Not that I think Israel is the good guy and poor Palestine has just been oppressed for no reason whatsoever, just that one is a democracy and one is a bunch of idiots (who I love and are made in God's image) that are too stupid to realize that their leaders take their aid money and their lives willy nilly. Israel has done a ton of awful stuff, I'm just not sympathetic to the Palestinian people for their absolute inability to be a functional society. there is a reason that none of their neighbors take them in.


that being said, my only impression of Cooper, was Smith or Scott Horton referencing him.


thought the interview was interesting as a whole and when he said "Churchill was a chief villain of WWII, i thought that was a spicy take, but didn't necessarily disagree wholeheartedly with anything afterwards. a few things where i thought he was being a bit too gracious towards the Germans in a few situations, but in no way whatsoever defending the atrocities of them. he did preface that he was being hyperbolic.

i feel like almost all the twitter follows i had (most that i like, like Seth Dillon, etc.) and people on this thread that went after him listened to a completely different podcast than i did. i never heard it as waving away anything or dismissing... just that both sides did some awful things... and history gets mad at you pointing out the awful things the "good guys" did. the point is made that you just can't even pretend like Churchill has some warts, even though I think he's a commendable figure and one of the most important in the 20th century. But he's not perfect. I never heard Cooper say anything along the lines of defending Nazis or the Holocaust, nonetheless denying it.

e.g.

i had a conversation with a peer, but somebody that i would call a midwit.

he actually knows Eugene Kaspersky and was talking about how he was unfairly treated because of Russia. when we were talking it through in the modern sense of Russia Ukraine, he couldn't get that i wanted Russia to lose this war and be expelled, but I also thought Russia was provoked.

i said something along the lines of:

"I think Putin is a dictator. I think he's an awful leader and the world would be better if he were deposed. Let me emphasize, I want Putin gone. The invasion of Ukraine is not justified. I hope Ukraine pushes out Russia and regains their land and we can get them to the bargaining table to figure out the warm water port situation.

but also NATO and the west keep expanding eastward towards a non-existent USSR while putting missiles on their border. we are literally on paper as hosting a coup to get a more western friendly government in Ukraine which hurt them. I'm not saying it's not better that it happened, but it's still something negative towards Russia's interest. The invasion is not at all justified and I hope Ukraine wins, but I just can't say it's "unprovoked."

and he replied, "that's a lot of words for having Putin's **** in your mouth."


to put it the sense of what Cooper is saying.

The good guys won WWII
I'm glad we won WWII.
The world is better because we won WWII.
Some of the worse things (Dressden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Rape of German women by soviets) as awful as they were, did bring the war to a sooner end.

but we (US/UK/League of Nations) were not saints in what lead up to it, nor what we did to end it.

i can believe the 4 former points and be welcome in polite society. add the latter and you're a holocaust denier and nazi sympathizer to a lot of people.

Mumpsimus.

I am finally watching the @martyrmade / Tucker discussion on Churchill. I am not sure who among the critics have actually watched it. As I dislike Twitter pile-ons, I think everyone should watch what X says before X is put in the tumbril. My response as a Churchillian below. https://t.co/7pO2JYIt0R

— Gray Connolly (@GrayConnolly) September 7, 2024

This is a thread made by a Churchill historian in response to Cooper. The summary is that Cooper didn't say anything new, and that all of his points were made by contemporary critics of Churchill during and after the war. He also thinks the criticism of Churchill is unfair, because the entire setup of the Britist Empire was the biggest driver of policy and not just Churchill. Specifically, the British Empire had always been against a united continental Europe for their own reasons, and the status quo in 1940 after Germany took all of north and central Europe was never going to fly.

The other half of the point Cooper is making is in regards to total war. When you are in a total war, anything goes, and anything that ends the war faster can be said to have it's own sort of positive morality no matter how bad it is. So firebombing, targeting civilians, nuclear war and terror campaigns go from "completely evil" to "maybe better than letting the war drag on". So these things can happen in a total war scenario that would never happen otherwise. Looking at it from that direction, you can lay a fair amount of responsibility on the people who pushed the world into total war. Without the total war, then none of the atrocities occur. So if you want to believe Hitler didn't want a total world war, and that Churchill wanted to escalate a regional war into a world war, then you can make a very tenuous and circuitous point that Churchill is in some measure responsible for all the atrocities that happened later. I don't buy it, and it makes me think of crazy posterboard people, but there is a line of thought you can follow

You only need to listen to 2 minutes of that garbage to hear Cooper say that Churchill was the chief villain of the war, primarily responsible for it becoming something more than an invasion of Poland, and that people died in Nazi concentration camps because the Nazis didn't work out the logistics of imprisoning that number of persons prior to starting the war.

The Holocaust was not an accident of bad planning.

The guy is a nutcase.

The article that I linked pretty much goes through his ludicrous arguments in detail. If you want to listen to it, knock yourself out, but it's a waste of time.

twk said:

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You only need to listen to 2 minutes of that garbage to hear Cooper say that Churchill was the chief villain of the war, primarily responsible for it becoming something more than an invasion of Poland, and that people died in Nazi concentration camps because the Nazis didn't work out the logistics of imprisoning that number of persons prior to starting the war.

The Holocaust was not an accident of bad planning.

The guy is a nutcase.

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Because Tucker had him on, and basically agreed with him, the Tucker fanboys are going to going on all in on blaming Churchill for WWII and excusing the Nazis and Hitler for the Holocaust.

Anyone who has read Mein Kampf knows Hitler planned to wipe out the Jews in Europe long before he ever came to power. It wasn't by accident or happenstance that the Nazis committed genocide; it was always their goal.

Velvet Jones said:

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Tucker is a journalist like I'm a neurosurgeon. He's an entertainer at best? And often a complete loon


That BSC fake historian saying Hitler, Tojo, and Stalin weren't so bad but the real evil SOB was...Winston Churchill?

GTFO.

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I've been having constant headaches. Are you taking new patients?

You are deliberately misrepresenting what he said. His point was absolutely not that the Holocaust was just a result of bad planning.

These criticisms of Churchill have been around for a long time. You are free to disagree with them. I do. But you are just revealing your ignorance calling the person making you aware of them a moron. Or insane. Or whatever pejorative you want to use.

Churchill wasn't a saint. It's okay to admit that.

Silent For Too Long said:

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You are deliberately misrepresenting what he said. His point was absolutely not that the Holocaust was just a result of bad planning.

These criticisms of Churchill have been around for a long time. You are free to disagree with them. I do. But you are just revealing your ignorance calling the person making you aware of them a moron. Or insane. Or whatever pejorative you want to use.

Churchill wasn't a saint. It's okay to admit that.

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I'm not misrepresenting what he said.

Cooper and Carlson were spreading lies. You bought them.

Edit: Victor Davis Hanson wrote an article castigating this charlatan, but it's behind a paywall: https://www.thefp.com/p/victor-davis-hanson-the-truth-about

He did not say the Holocaust was a result of bad planning.

He paraphrased a primary source EARLY IN THE WAR where a German officer was lamenting the logistical difficulties they were facing in a concentration camps.

So, yes, you are misrepresenting what he said

bobbranco said:

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The leftists are huge sappers.

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Combat engineers?

Also, I didn't "buy" anything. I explicitly stated I don't agree with all his criticisms of Churchill. This also isn't new information for me.

Again, since you have trouble with reading comprehension, these criticisms have been around for 80 years.

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

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You know you have won as a center right person when everyone who is left of center starts calling you names instead of attacking your ideas, your position, or the content of your argument. Every single thing Tucker's guest said is a 100 percent fact. This is extremely similar to when liberals and leftists try to attack conservative policies on violent crime. They cannot prove what you are saying is wrong because it is not, so they just start calling you names. The American Pageant and all other US history textbooks were written by idealogical Far Leftists. People who are farther left than Karl Marx. Go look up some of these authors. You will routinely see professors at schools like UT Austin get arrested at stuff like the BLM riots of 2020, and the Hamas riots of 2024. These history book authors are not neutral good faith actors.

I have timestamped the video

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It seems to me that radicals on the left and the right all specialize in ad hominem attacks.

That especially applies to Trump -- he thinks calling names and making ad hominem attacks is everything.

Silent For Too Long said:

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He did not say the Holocaust was a result of bad planning.

He paraphrased a primary source EARLY IN THE WAR where a German officer was lamenting the logistical difficulties they were facing in a concentration camps.

So, yes, you are misrepresenting what he said

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Me and Victor Davis Hanson. Good company to be in, as opposed to the folks you are riding with.

VDH is a brilliant guy. He's sometimes wrong, too.

Very intelligent well researched people can say things that are wrong. I know that's a concept that's terribly difficult for you wrap your head around.

Velvet Jones said:

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Tucker is a journalist like I'm a neurosurgeon. He's an entertainer at best? And often a complete loon


That BSC fake historian saying Hitler, Tojo, and Stalin weren't so bad but the real evil SOB was...Winston Churchill?

GTFO.

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This. He's a talking head and makes his money off of being contrarian.

Good job working Trump into every post you make

eric76 said:

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bobbranco said:

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The leftists are huge sappers.

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Combat engineers?

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Think about it. Because leftist historians are such sappers.

verb

[ol]

gradually weaken or destroy (a person's strength or power).
"our energy is being sapped by bureaucrats and politicians"

[/ol]