Bad idea Chevron.

Do you think Trump would have been able to prevent this?

Every engineering company is doing this. It's been going on for 20 years.

Start implementing unavoidable taxes and fines on any us corps that outsource

ttu_85 said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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dmart90 said:

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IF they hire good leadership in India, have good product and architectural direction from the US, give the team in India a self-contained problem they can own, and create a great culture - then they can be successful long-term. It's worked well for my current company.

I realize that's a lot of ifs.

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Given your nested IF statements, it looks like the Indians can out program us:
IF (condition=true) THEN
IF (other condition=true) THEN
IF (another condition=true) THEN
IF (yet another condition=true) THEN
maybe they'll be able to do something useful
ELSE
FAIL
ELSE
FAIL
ELSE
FAIL
ELSE
FAIL

The first hurdle will be Leadership.
Second will be retention.
(Formatting - I guess the TexAgs doesn't like spaces or tabs)

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Lordy y'all are coding in BASIC



Joking !!!

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See what I mean.

Indians could have programmed that way better than I could

Canyon99 said:

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Outsourcing to India

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Anyone still hiring consultant groups as an excuse to outsource their tech to India or manufacturing to China deserves to lose their ass. Foremost being Wall Street. These bankers and accountants can't think past the next quarter and it shows.

Canyon99 said:

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Outsourcing to India

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Yup they bring over the H1 and then then turn around and outsource the bulk IT back home. F em all.

****** ******

HollywoodBQ said:

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. . . I've been to Bangalore about 10 times for work between 2011 and 2020 (one of my last trips before the world ended in March 2020).

Since 2021, I've hired a team of 8-10 people in India, between Bangalore and Pune.

Salaries have increased considerably but the value of the Rupee has dropped significantly.
Back in 2011, it was about 60 Rs per USD, now it's over 80 Rs per USD.

15 years ago, you could hire an "Engineer" in India for $40,000. Today, that's more like $60,000.

If you bring them over to the USA, you're going to have to pay them something between $100k - $150k depending on experience and location.

And trust me, every last one of them wants to come to the USA. Most of them want to retire back to India but they want to spend their prime earning years here in the land of Freedom.

Just this week, I had a guy give my name to our HR recruiter to use as a reference. It was a guy I tried to hire in India two years ago but he turned down my job offer because his existing employer promised him an H-1B Visa to the USA. Now he's trying to change jobs and wants us to take over his sponsorship. It's not in my department so I don't hold any sway over whether he gets hired or not but in the past, I did want to hire him. For the record, it's about $15,000 in immigration legal fees and such to assume somebody's H-1B Visa sponsorship.

The vast majority of these young Indian guys are just chasing a bag. And as soon as somebody else offers a bigger bag, they're gone. By the way, I've worked with some very competent Indian women but they're never going to get the credit they deserve due to cultural issues (women in the USA complaining about discrimination and equality have no idea how good they have it).

Productivity wise, there's no place that matches the USA in productivity. And obviously no place other than maybe Australia or Canada that comes close to matching US customer service standards. Note: I'm not counting Airlines or Hotels because the Asians have that on lock - Emirates, Etihad, Singapore, Cathay, Korean, etc.

Back in 2004 when I first moved to LA, I befriended an older Sikh guy who lived in my apartment ("pause" - or as we used to say in LA in 2004, "no homo"). He used to sit out by the pool drinking whisky and told me about the 4 men living in one room who were on their mobile phones all night calling home while they were on a 179 day assignment working in the IT shop at Warner Brothers (179 days of temporary work allowed WB to pay them in Rupees rather than USD).

What that old Sikh guy told me still rings true today.

He told me that the Indians can program better than you and you should never try to beat them. But, he said, the problem they have is that due to their education system and culture, they will never be able to figure out what the problem is. So as an American, you can use Indians to program but you have to provide the problem definition and guidelines because they can't do it.

I've got plenty of other observations but that's good enough for this conversation.
. . . .

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It kind of has a black players can play any position in the NFL well except QB feel to it - although obviously that wasn't true regardless of cultural objections.

Indians are routinely accepted into schools here - is that education enough to overcome their cultural issues (presumably the same across religion, caste, politics, geography, income, yada, yada) that prevent them from being able to read defenses or coach?

Quote:

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The center will focus on improving operational reliability, low-carbon energy solutions, and subsurface geology for carbon storage.

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Good luck with that. You can't focus on operational reliability with a 23 hour flight between where the equipment is and where the people are working on the problems.

It doesn't even work when there are technical folks in Houston trying, clumsily, to work on problems in west Texas oil fields.

soggybottomboy said:

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A company can't pass up and opportunity for cutting costs. Deserves a shareholder lawsuit if they don't.

I wonder what can be done about this given the advent of remote technology. Any job that can be done in a low cost of living region has to be moved there?
One thing is US engineers need to upskill so that their work can't be done elsewhere, as well as US salaries need to come down to be globally competitive.

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Petroleum engineering competency in India already can't compete with US engineers, so your comment about US enginners upskilling is not informed. India is currently inviting Exxon and other majors interests in their largest fields to come to India and help them develop their lagging production because they don't have the technical knowledge base that we do in the US.

Hos post was related to engineering competency in India versus the US. Take your race baiting comments to another thread.

soggybottomboy said:

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A company can't pass up and opportunity for cutting costs. Deserves a shareholder lawsuit if they don't.

I wonder what can be done about this given the advent of remote technology. Any job that can be done in a low cost of living region has to be moved there?
One thing is US engineers need to upskill so that their work can't be done elsewhere, as well as US salaries need to come down to be globally competitive.

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O&G companies aren't doing this as direct replacements for the typical engineers like electrical, process, mechanical, etc. they do this to supplement asset resources, with data analysis, admin, KPIs, managing certain processes, etc. they look for engineering degree folks in india so that they have certain competencies but they aren't replacing us (yet).

what it does do is limit how many engineering resources directly in an asset/org, because you have this satellite org providing support from remotely you don't need as many higher cost ones to also do all the menial/admin/low value work

fixer said:

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Quote:

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The center will focus on improving operational reliability, low-carbon energy solutions, and subsurface geology for carbon storage.

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Good luck with that. You can't focus on operational reliability with a 23 hour flight between where the equipment is and where the people are working on the problems.

It doesn't even work when there are technical folks in Houston trying, clumsily, to work on problems in west Texas oil fields.

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what it means is they will let india do the data analysis and monitoring and send alerts over to someone else to fix/action

Faustus said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

---

. . . I've been to Bangalore about 10 times for work between 2011 and 2020 (one of my last trips before the world ended in March 2020).

Since 2021, I've hired a team of 8-10 people in India, between Bangalore and Pune.

Salaries have increased considerably but the value of the Rupee has dropped significantly.
Back in 2011, it was about 60 Rs per USD, now it's over 80 Rs per USD.

15 years ago, you could hire an "Engineer" in India for $40,000. Today, that's more like $60,000.

If you bring them over to the USA, you're going to have to pay them something between $100k - $150k depending on experience and location.

And trust me, every last one of them wants to come to the USA. Most of them want to retire back to India but they want to spend their prime earning years here in the land of Freedom.

Just this week, I had a guy give my name to our HR recruiter to use as a reference. It was a guy I tried to hire in India two years ago but he turned down my job offer because his existing employer promised him an H-1B Visa to the USA. Now he's trying to change jobs and wants us to take over his sponsorship. It's not in my department so I don't hold any sway over whether he gets hired or not but in the past, I did want to hire him. For the record, it's about $15,000 in immigration legal fees and such to assume somebody's H-1B Visa sponsorship.

The vast majority of these young Indian guys are just chasing a bag. And as soon as somebody else offers a bigger bag, they're gone. By the way, I've worked with some very competent Indian women but they're never going to get the credit they deserve due to cultural issues (women in the USA complaining about discrimination and equality have no idea how good they have it).

Productivity wise, there's no place that matches the USA in productivity. And obviously no place other than maybe Australia or Canada that comes close to matching US customer service standards. Note: I'm not counting Airlines or Hotels because the Asians have that on lock - Emirates, Etihad, Singapore, Cathay, Korean, etc.

Back in 2004 when I first moved to LA, I befriended an older Sikh guy who lived in my apartment ("pause" - or as we used to say in LA in 2004, "no homo"). He used to sit out by the pool drinking whisky and told me about the 4 men living in one room who were on their mobile phones all night calling home while they were on a 179 day assignment working in the IT shop at Warner Brothers (179 days of temporary work allowed WB to pay them in Rupees rather than USD).

What that old Sikh guy told me still rings true today.

He told me that the Indians can program better than you and you should never try to beat them. But, he said, the problem they have is that due to their education system and culture, they will never be able to figure out what the problem is. So as an American, you can use Indians to program but you have to provide the problem definition and guidelines because they can't do it.

I've got plenty of other observations but that's good enough for this conversation.
. . . .

---

It kind of has a black players can play any position in the NFL well except QB feel to it - although obviously that wasn't true regardless of cultural objections.

Indians are routinely accepted into schools here - is that education enough to overcome their cultural issues (presumably the same across religion, caste, politics, geography, income, yada, yada) that prevent them from being able to read defenses or coach?

---

First let me give you some background. I grew up in Saudi Arabia attending an International School with lots of Indian kids. Indian kids both from San Francisco (whose fathers worked for Bechtel) and Indian kids from India. Matter of fact, just last night, I was explaining to my wife that it was two Indian brothers from Kashmir who actually talked me into joining Boy Scouts (I never would have gotten to Philmont or made Eagle Scout if it weren't for those two guys).

There wasn't much to do in my hometown in Saudi Arabia, so our lives consisted of riding bikes, playing Atari and going swimming. Our swim team coach Mr. G.S. Nair (pronounced Nigh-Air) had been the 100m Freestyle National Champion and held the Indian National record. At the time he was our coach, he could swim the 100m Free in 51 seconds. Problem was that the world record holder at the time - Rowdy Gaines was already in the 49 second range. And 2 seconds in competitive swimming is forever. But I digress.

Since you want to go Black Quarterback on me, let's do that. Blacks have proven they can play the position for 40 years. Doug Williams, Randall Cunningham, Steve McNair and don't forget Houston Oilers legend Warren Moon. Now in modern times, from Michael Vick onwards, everybody has a Black QB but the game has changed to suit their abilities. Nobody's looking for Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts or even John Elway.

When I was first out of college and got back from my Army Training at Fort Knox (same area/era shown in "Stripes"), I got an Environmental Engineering job in Austin in 1994. I worked with several Indian guys and guys from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ghana, Nigeria, etc. They all had to get a Masters Degree from an American institution to work in the USA. Those guys were committed to working/living in the USA but the Indian guys were all dreaming of retiring back home in India. (also, back in 1994, there was only one Indian restaurant in Austin - Star of India. Nobody ever dreamed of all the Indian restaurants they have now)

Working in IT, I've worked with lots of Indians. I've also helped many Indians fulfill their dreams of moving to the USA, Australia or Singapore. By the way, it took me about 9 months to hire the guy in Singapore and I had to pay him more than 200,000 SGD to qualify for a skilled migrant visa.

Bottom line, the Indian folks that you see working in the USA are the cream of the crop and they've climbed over literally millions of their countrymen to make it here.

I've also presented to a roomful of 100 developers in Bangalore and had them laugh at me when I asked if the two different product development teams were working together to add a particular new feature to their respective code bases.

Anyway, it's not race. It's culture. Or more to the point, the system.
So to go back to your Black QB analogy, are today's modern Black QBs as good of drop back passers in the pocket as Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts, etc. Or, are they playing in a different system.

My point is that hiring Indian Engineers in India, is embracing a system that is not going to yield the results the employer thinks they're going to get. And they're going to have a very difficult time retaining any talent that they do develop.

Union Carbide says "hold my beer"

Quote:

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On the night of December 2, 1984, chemical, methyl isocyanate (MIC) spilt out from Union Carbide India Ltd's (UCIL's) pesticide factory turned the city of Bhopal into a colossal gas chamber. It was India's first major industrial disaster. At least 30 tonnes of methyl isocyanate gas killed more than 15,000 people and affected over 600,000 workers.

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https://www.business-standard.com/about/what-is-bhopal-gas-tragedy

doubledog said:

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Union Carbide says "hold my beer"

Quote:

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On the night of December 2, 1984, chemical, methyl isocyanate (MIC) spilt out from Union Carbide India Ltd's (UCIL's) pesticide factory turned the city of Bhopal into a colossal gas chamber. It was India's first major industrial disaster. At least 30 tonnes of methyl isocyanate gas killed more than 15,000 people and affected over 600,000 workers.

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https://www.business-standard.com/about/what-is-bhopal-gas-tragedy

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BP says, sure

jagvocate said:

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soggybottomboy said:

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US salaries need to come down to be globally competitive.

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Falling for the globalist agenda. We hollowed out our industry with NAFTA and are now arbitraging away America's salaried (middle) class

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How would you fix it then?

hedge said:

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Start implementing unavoidable taxes and fines on any us corps that outsource

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That will make the HQs move and/or make US companies even more uncompetitive against other companies, esepecially Asian.

Wildmen06 said:

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Every engineering company is doing this. It's been going on for 20 years.

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Semi-conductors are doing it at a rapid pace, and yes the "Chip ACT" was a failure.

Chevron always paid twice the price for management decisions using BCG for to do the actual work of organizational design (layoffs), and strategy. Their senior management is devoid of any actual leaders.