JJxvi said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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pagerman @ work said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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This boxer and the other one from Taiwan are not trans, they are intersex. They have been presenting as female from birth.

I think the higher levels of testosterone should probably preclude them from competing against women but this is a little bit more difficult of a situation.

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If they have XY chromosomes, it really isn't that difficult when it comes to women's athletics, and particularly boxing, where they could potentially kill a woman.

The IBA and IBF don't let them fight women. That should be sufficient.

Edited to add:

It should be sufficient, but then you have this insanity:

Quote:

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International Olympic Committee spokesman Mark Adams said before the Olympics boxing match between Carini and Khelif that "These boxers [Khelif and Tu-ting] are entirely eligible. They are women on their passports. It's not helpful to start stigmatizing like this. We all have a responsibility not to turn it into some kind of witch-hunt."

***
The IOC's "Portrayal Guidelines" instruct members of the media not to use the "problematic" terms "male" and "female" in their coverage of the Olympics.

"A person's sex category is not assigned based on genetics alone," the guidelines read.

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This stupidity cannot be reconciled with the amount of steroid testing that goes on to ensure that male and female athletes aren't doping.

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This is a weird one...biologically, Khelif is a woman. She was born with female reproductive organs...she just fits into this weird box where she also has XY chromosomes.

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How do you know what reproductive organs Khelif has?

Functional Ovaries? A uterus?

Is there ovulation? Eggs? A monthly visitor?

Or is there simply a lack of make genitalia and you've labeled that "female reproductive organs"

What's the situation specifically?

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So are you advocating for a third physical sex? She's born with a vagina. They look , and they decide...is this male or female? You want to make it more intensive than that for everybody born everywhere in the world? I thought we were for binary simplicity here?

If everybody is simply male or female at birth, this boxer is female.

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I'm advocating for fair, and safe competition in sports. I don't care what's on a persons birth certificate, what kind of clothes they wear, or what they identify as

There's nothing that precludes specific rules for something like sporting competitions, no rules requiring that women's competition be restricted to biological and genetic females.

Seems to me like it's you who is insisting on binary guidelines that allow generic males to beat up on women

Read my posts by starting from the first one. That one outlines my position. If she's dangerous, than by all means there should be some sort of due process that decides that. However, this lady has been boxing for years apparently and fought in the last Olympics too. It came up after testing in 2023 for the first time with her.

The rest of my posts are contrary reactions to all the "Dudes caint fight women! It aint right!" type posts about this rather than some kind of digging-my-feet-in-the-sand statements about this situation. I stated from the beginning that the situation wasnt simple, and those posts are to highlight different ways of thinking about this, from my point of view.

Captain Pablo said:

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JJxvi said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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pagerman @ work said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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This boxer and the other one from Taiwan are not trans, they are intersex. They have been presenting as female from birth.

I think the higher levels of testosterone should probably preclude them from competing against women but this is a little bit more difficult of a situation.

---

If they have XY chromosomes, it really isn't that difficult when it comes to women's athletics, and particularly boxing, where they could potentially kill a woman.

The IBA and IBF don't let them fight women. That should be sufficient.

Edited to add:

It should be sufficient, but then you have this insanity:

Quote:

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International Olympic Committee spokesman Mark Adams said before the Olympics boxing match between Carini and Khelif that "These boxers [Khelif and Tu-ting] are entirely eligible. They are women on their passports. It's not helpful to start stigmatizing like this. We all have a responsibility not to turn it into some kind of witch-hunt."

***
The IOC's "Portrayal Guidelines" instruct members of the media not to use the "problematic" terms "male" and "female" in their coverage of the Olympics.

"A person's sex category is not assigned based on genetics alone," the guidelines read.

---

This stupidity cannot be reconciled with the amount of steroid testing that goes on to ensure that male and female athletes aren't doping.

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This is a weird one...biologically, Khelif is a woman. She was born with female reproductive organs...she just fits into this weird box where she also has XY chromosomes.

---

How do you know what reproductive organs Khelif has?

Functional Ovaries? A uterus?

Is there ovulation? Eggs? A monthly visitor?

Or is there simply a lack of make genitalia and you've labeled that "female reproductive organs"

What's the situation specifically?

---

So are you advocating for a third physical sex? She's born with a vagina. They look , and they decide...is this male or female? You want to make it more intensive than that for everybody born everywhere in the world? I thought we were for binary simplicity here?

If everybody is simply male or female at birth, this boxer is female.

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I'm advocating for fair, and safe competition in sports. I don't care what's on a persons birth certificate, what kind of clothes they wear, or what they identify as

There's nothing that precludes specific rules for something like sporting competitions, no rules requiring that women's competition be restricted to biological and genetic females.

Seems to me like it's you who is insisting on binary guidelines that allow generic males to beat up on women

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If this person was born with a vagina and would have been treated like a woman without genetic testing, it would seem that they are a woman.

My next controversial opinion would be that choosing to participate at all in boxing is dumb and dangerous just to start with and nobody should really if they really understood what they were doing to themselves.

Ciboag96 said:

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Riddle me this Batman: How do the rabid feminists, who promote women's empowerment, also support men in drag beating the absolute **** out of women?

Also goes along with LGBTQ proponents supporting Islamists?

It. Doesn't. Make. Any. ****ing. Sense.

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When you are godless , you are empty inside.
You end up looking in the wrong places, and following the wrong things.

This is absolute madness.

jjxvi,

Your argument that a person's sex, identified via genital exam, has always been the way it was decided is not a valid reason for sporting bodies to continue to do it that way. The technology to decide via a genetic test is proven and available and that's how it should be. It doesn't invalidate past competitions and competitors under the previous method. Look forward and stop letting this happen.

NE PA Ag,

Your solution may help for the very highest of profile World and Olympic level sporting bodies, but I can assure you that there is no way that we can flip a switch and require all woman's competitions worldwide to suddenly get a genetics test to compete. You interested in taking your daughter in for the blood draw for middle school basketball?

Even those World governing bodies dont have the ability to test every single competition under their banners down to the lowest levels under them.

Quote:

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If everybody is simply male or female at birth, this boxer is female.

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Are trolls male or female?

Just wondering, as that has apparently been your choice on this thread

You got an actual comeback to that statement you quoted? Maybe she was born a girl, but then in 2023 we found out she was man? That seems to fit your thinking on the situation.

The answer of course is to get rid of all sports separated by sex.

There's only one football, soccer, gymnastics, boxing, etc.

No more controversy, right?

JJxvi said:

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You got an actual comeback to that statement you quoted? Maybe she was born a girl, but then in 2023 we found out she was man? That seems to fit your thinking on the situation.

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What?????

The "male" boxer has a reproductive system and can give birth. So …. What do we do with that information

Really?

How many births thus far?

hedge said:

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The "male" boxer has a reproductive system and can give birth. So …. What do we do with that information

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She likely is infertile, but certainly a possibility that she could give birth after an embryo transfer, depending on what her medical situation actually is. Gonadal tissue is usually non functional (so no eggs of their own) but a lot of times the uterus, fallopian tubes, etc are fully developed so birthing is possible it seems from reading, although I would guess that would require outside hormonal help. Also, a girl with really masculine features and ability, is probably more likely to be totally infertile, I would think, than not.

JJxvi said:

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NE PA Ag,

Your solution may help for the very highest of profile World and Olympic level sporting bodies, but I can assure you that there is no way that we can flip a switch and require all woman's competitions worldwide to suddenly get a genetics test to compete. You interested in taking your daughter in for the blood draw for middle school basketball?

Even those World governing bodies dont have the ability to test every single competition under their banners down to the lowest levels under them.

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Point taken actually. I just learned about it. Only possible via blood, bone marrow, a biopsy to collect cell tissue, or if pregnant amniotic fluid.

hedge said:

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The "male" boxer has a reproductive system and can give birth. So …. What do we do with that information

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Holy sh** you don't know that

Keller6Ag91 said:

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JJxvi said:

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You got an actual comeback to that statement you quoted? Maybe she was born a girl, but then in 2023 we found out she was man? That seems to fit your thinking on the situation.

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What?????

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I'm not sure if you're just getting here and confused by my take on the situation or what, so to reiterate, here's my understanding of whats happening.

JJxvi said:

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Leaving ideological sides out of it, this is not a simple situation.

This boxer is a woman or female by sex. Female sex being determined by examining your physical characteristics, the same way its been done for all time. 10 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, she would be female and therefore a woman. Now we are aware now through genetic testing, that a medical anomaly exists with her which is likely what gives her an advantage in her sport. She has the genes of a man, that through some medical complication werent expressed in physical sex, but may be expressed in ways that give her an advantage over the typical woman. She's not trans, and she comes from Algeria, where I'm guessing sex changes aren't like a big thing.

But what should we do about it? Obviously if its dangerous, that is a good argument for keeping her out, but just that she's "got an advantage" is a murky area. Everybody competing for gold in a physical based sport was likely born with an "unfair" advantage over 99.9% of the rest of the world if we are being honest. Yao Ming didnt become a pro basketball player solely on the basis of outworking all the other chinese kids, for example.

This boxer also competed in the last olympics by the way.

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AtticusMatlock said:

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This boxer and the other one from Taiwan are not trans, they are intersex. They have been presenting as female from birth.

I think the higher levels of testosterone should probably preclude them from competing against women but this is a little bit more difficult of a situation.

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K. They should alternate fighting men and women every other fight.

Why on God's green earth is there even a GRAY AREA when it comes to gender.

There is a lot of gray area in the world but damn this is BLACK AND WHITE.

Doesn't take a medical team and endless studies to differentiate a man from a women.

Oh Billy Ray at AutoZone can let you know in the parking lot.

Good lord.

Aggie Therapist said:

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Why on God's green earth is there even a GRAY AREA when it comes to gender.

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Well, i guess God is a good enough place to start if youre gonna try to find someone to assign blame for things like genetic anomalies, intersex people and such existing in the first place.

JJxvi said:

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Keller6Ag91 said:

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JJxvi said:

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You got an actual comeback to that statement you quoted? Maybe she was born a girl, but then in 2023 we found out she was man? That seems to fit your thinking on the situation.

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What?????

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I'm not sure if you're just getting here and confused by my take on the situation or what, so to reiterate, here's my understanding of whats happening.

JJxvi said:

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Leaving ideological sides out of it, this is not a simple situation.

This boxer is a woman or female by sex. Female sex being determined by examining your physical characteristics, the same way its been done for all time. 10 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, she would be female and therefore a woman. Now we are aware now through genetic testing, that a medical anomaly exists with her which is likely what gives her an advantage in her sport. She has the genes of a man, that through some medical complication werent expressed in physical sex, but may be expressed in ways that give her an advantage over the typical woman. She's not trans, and she comes from Algeria, where I'm guessing sex changes aren't like a big thing.

But what should we do about it? Obviously if its dangerous, that is a good argument for keeping her out, but just that she's "got an advantage" is a murky area. Everybody competing for gold in a physical based sport was likely born with an "unfair" advantage over 99.9% of the rest of the world if we are being honest. Yao Ming didnt become a pro basketball player solely on the basis of outworking all the other chinese kids, for example.

This boxer also competed in the last olympics by the way.

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Interesting.
I am guessing that sex changes are a huge issue in Algeria, but there wasn't a sex change, correct?
In most 3rd world countries, she would be banned (unfair or not).
But the IOC allowed Pistorius, so not surprised they allowed this boxer.

Aggie Therapist said:

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Why on God's green earth is there even a GRAY AREA when it comes to gender.

There is a lot of gray area in the world but damn this is BLACK AND WHITE.

Doesn't take a medical team and endless studies to differentiate a man from a women.

Oh Billy Ray at AutoZone can let you know in the parking lot.

Good lord.

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In this case, it might actually be a gray area

Quote:

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ALGERIAN BOXER WAS BORN A WOMAN

Imane is a woman

She has hyperandrogenism, a condition characterized by abnormally high androgen levels in her blood, leading to elevated testosterone and the presence of XY chromosomes.

This is a natural disorder.

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I thought what has happened most often with intersex children at birth is that the parents pick one sex or the other to put on the birth certificate. So my assumption is, this boxer's parents chose "female". And in Algeria, they don't allow transgender or to change sex on a passport. Since the Olympic rules seem to be go to by whatever sex is on a passport, not much else can be done if Algeria won't allow her to change. Doesn't mean he/she wouldn't prefer to identify as trans if her home country would allow it. So that's likely why they state "she never identified as trans"...because he/she literally CAN'T in Algeria.

Intersex is not necessarily a person having ambiguous or dual genetalia which may be a situation where a choice is made

India's solution to those born with XY chromosome was to create a "third gender". They're legally recognized as third gender including by the Supreme Court of India. They have their own sporting events such as football, track and field, and other athletics. So they don't compete… https://t.co/H66Ob43DaX

— Rupa Subramanya (@rupasubramanya) August 1, 2024

deddog said:

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Aggie Therapist said:

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Why on God's green earth is there even a GRAY AREA when it comes to gender.

There is a lot of gray area in the world but damn this is BLACK AND WHITE.

Doesn't take a medical team and endless studies to differentiate a man from a women.

Oh Billy Ray at AutoZone can let you know in the parking lot.

Good lord.

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In this case, it might actually be a gray area

Quote:

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ALGERIAN BOXER WAS BORN A WOMAN

Imane is a woman

She has hyperandrogenism, a condition characterized by abnormally high androgen levels in her blood, leading to elevated testosterone and the presence of XY chromosomes.

This is a natural disorder.

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Wait, are you saying high androgen CAUSED the XY chromosomes?

Journalist probably wrote that, they love writing "wet roads cause rain" stories

Maybe the response is, "I am sorry you can't compete, you have an unfair advantage"? It sucks for this competitor, but the elevated testosterone IS an unfair advantage against women.

JJxvi said:

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Journalist probably wrote that, they love writing "wet roads cause rain" stories

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Of course they do

So what we have is

- person is XY
- has high androgen levels because of it
- but is a woman and should be allowed to beat up girls

Yeah. Completely sane world

Where does trying to find the "unfair advantage" in a person's genes stop? With the appointment of a Handicapper General?

JJxvi said:

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Where does trying to find the "unfair advantage" in a person's genes stop? With the appointment of a Handicapper General?

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When if any other athlete had a higher testosterone advantage over their competitor, whether because of their different genetic issue or they purposely take it, then they are out…

Thats a good idea for a new feminized sport. Participants just take a T test and higher number gets disqualified. Lowest testosterone wins

JJxvi said:

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Thats a good idea for a new feminized sport. Participants just take a T test and higher number gets disqualified. Lowest testosterone wins

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Yep…sorry that doesn't fit your current narrative…she/he shouldn't have been in that ring…

MelvinUdall said:

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JJxvi said:

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Where does trying to find the "unfair advantage" in a person's genes stop? With the appointment of a Handicapper General?

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When if any other athlete had a higher testosterone advantage over their competitor, whether because of their different genetic issue or they purposely take it, then they are out…

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Why not muscle mass as welll?

fc2112 said:

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Breaking News:

Mike Tyson says he's willing to Box Olympic DUDE with all Proceeds to go to a Battered Women's Charity... pic.twitter.com/HU9pnh0Vx2

— Rob/1865 (@Rob1865_) August 1, 2024

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Speaking of Mike Tyson:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et7N0wbvFXg