To be somewhat fair, has anyone brought up the fact that the point of sale systems that many businesses now use have a tip question built into the payment workflow? So on one hand you can't completely blame the person conducting the transaction. Technology has introduced some of this out of control tip trend.

On the other hand, I assume there may be a setting where the business can simply disable the tip ask. I've actually had people at the POS tell me not to tip before and to ignore that part of the payment workflow.

Jeeper79 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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MelvinUdall said:

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We are taking about not taxing tips…sure could there be repercussions, yes, but really it would be insignificant at best.

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Did you read the OP? The risk is that it creates a loophole and you start seeing more tipping which wouldn't be insignificant.

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What new loophole? 99.99% of waiters already don't pay anything in taxes. It's all refunded to them.

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Its all in the OP but I'll break it down further.

Say you make $100k as a plumber. Now let's say you add a 20% mandatory tip line to the bill and reduce the core price by 20%. That's essentially legalized tax evasion, is it not? I guess someone could choose to bring the top portion to $0, but how many people would?

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I had not considered this but man I would love if this were true. My legal bill would now include a 50% tip. God know I need to find some loophole to avoid this continued theft from my family's future.

YouBet said:

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To be somewhat fair, has anyone brought up the fact that the point of sale systems that many businesses now use have a tip question built into the payment workflow? So on one hand you can't completely blame the person conducting the transaction. Technology has introduced some of this out of control tip trend.

On the other hand, I assume there may be a setting where the business can simply disable the tip ask. I've actually had people at the POS tell me not to tip before and to ignore that part of the payment workflow.

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At my last business, we had a POS system and, yes, you can turn it off and/or customize it.

Jeeper79 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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MelvinUdall said:

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We are taking about not taxing tips…sure could there be repercussions, yes, but really it would be insignificant at best.

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Did you read the OP? The risk is that it creates a loophole and you start seeing more tipping which wouldn't be insignificant.

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What new loophole? 99.99% of waiters already don't pay anything in taxes. It's all refunded to them.

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Its all in the OP.

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Your OP is illogical. You are saying that it's unfair that the people who already don't pay anything in taxes will have a loophole allowing them to not pay anything in taxes. The only difference is that the IRS isn't needed as much with the proposed solution. Which means a net reduction in government spending.

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The whole point is that opening this loophole risks expanding tipping beyond low paying food server jobs. It's a pattern we're already seeing more of and this could make it worse.

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The loophole is already open. Your OP is pointless. If it were going to happen, it already would have. Nobody is tipping at McDonalds. If they tried to go to this, they would still end up having to pay minimum wage to cover the lack of tips to these employees. They would then continue losing workers to chains like Chick-fil-A that offer well above minimum wage for the same job with better customers.

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Expand your thought process beyond minimum wage food service jobs.

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It's all the wage these days.

All of this idiocy with "nuance" when the actual answer is easy:

- gut spending
- flat tax with zero deductions

Tom Fox said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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techno-ag said:

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Lower taxes are always better.

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Even when the government is picking winners and loser, including in the middle class? Even when it basically creates a loophole for how customers are charged?

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The majority of them are paying minimal federal income taxes if any.

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Somebody must have forgotten to tell that to the IRS.

Jeeper79 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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techno-ag said:

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Lower taxes are always better.

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Even when the government is picking winners and loser, including in the middle class? Even when it basically creates a loophole for how customers are charged?

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The majority of them are paying minimal federal income taxes if any.

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Somebody must have forgotten to tell that to the IRS.

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Please elaborate: how much do you think a family of 4 pays in federal income taxes after they invest into their IRA and 401K and get their tax credits.

It will not even be 5 figures.

How one poster can always be so wrong with everything they/he/she/it posts is really amazing.

BigRobSA said:

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YouBet said:

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To be somewhat fair, has anyone brought up the fact that the point of sale systems that many businesses now use have a tip question built into the payment workflow? So on one hand you can't completely blame the person conducting the transaction. Technology has introduced some of this out of control tip trend.

On the other hand, I assume there may be a setting where the business can simply disable the tip ask. I've actually had people at the POS tell me not to tip before and to ignore that part of the payment workflow.

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At my last business, we had a POS system and, yes, you can turn it off and/or customize it.

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What I assumed but I bet a good portion of owners have no idea how to turn it off even if they wanted to.

jefe95 said:

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How one poster can always be so wrong with everything they/he/she/it posts is really amazing.

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Two teas meets tips

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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The loophole is already open. Your OP is pointless. If it were going to happen, it already would have. Nobody is tipping at McDonalds. If they tried to go to this, they would still end up having to pay minimum wage to cover the lack of tips to these employees. They would then continue losing workers to chains like Chick-fil-A that offer well above minimum wage for the same job with better customers.

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The OP isn't about tipping at McDonalds or other low wage jobs. It is about creating a tax incentive to convert taxable earned income to untaxed tip income, regardless of the job. There will be a significant financial incentive to try to convert a $250k salary into $150k salary and $100k tip. There will absolutely be people looking to manipulate the system. Withstanding IRS scrutiny will be another question, but people will try.

VegasAg86 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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The loophole is already open. Your OP is pointless. If it were going to happen, it already would have. Nobody is tipping at McDonalds. If they tried to go to this, they would still end up having to pay minimum wage to cover the lack of tips to these employees. They would then continue losing workers to chains like Chick-fil-A that offer well above minimum wage for the same job with better customers.

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The OP isn't about tipping at McDonalds or other low wage jobs. It is about creating a tax incentive to convert taxable earned income to untaxed tip income, regardless of the job. There will be a significant financial incentive to try to convert a $250k salary into $150k salary and $100k tip. There will absolutely be people looking to manipulate the system. Withstanding IRS scrutiny will be another question, but people will try.

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Wow,


$500k is quite a meal!

IIIHorn said:

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VegasAg86 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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The loophole is already open. Your OP is pointless. If it were going to happen, it already would have. Nobody is tipping at McDonalds. If they tried to go to this, they would still end up having to pay minimum wage to cover the lack of tips to these employees. They would then continue losing workers to chains like Chick-fil-A that offer well above minimum wage for the same job with better customers.

---

The OP isn't about tipping at McDonalds or other low wage jobs. It is about creating a tax incentive to convert taxable earned income to untaxed tip income, regardless of the job. There will be a significant financial incentive to try to convert a $250k salary into $150k salary and $100k tip. There will absolutely be people looking to manipulate the system. Withstanding IRS scrutiny will be another question, but people will try.

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Wow,


$500k is quite a meal!

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What part of "creating a tax incentive to convert taxable earned income to untaxed tip income, regardless of the job" didn't you understand? Note I said it won't withstand IRS scrutiny, but most changes to the tax code bring changes to behavior to take advantage of new rules. This would be no different.

VegasAg86 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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The loophole is already open. Your OP is pointless. If it were going to happen, it already would have. Nobody is tipping at McDonalds. If they tried to go to this, they would still end up having to pay minimum wage to cover the lack of tips to these employees. They would then continue losing workers to chains like Chick-fil-A that offer well above minimum wage for the same job with better customers.

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The OP isn't about tipping at McDonalds or other low wage jobs. It is about creating a tax incentive to convert taxable earned income to untaxed tip income, regardless of the job. There will be a significant financial incentive to try to convert a $250k salary into $150k salary and $100k tip. There will absolutely be people looking to manipulate the system. Withstanding IRS scrutiny will be another question, but people will try.

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We both agree then that nothing will effectively change.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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MelvinUdall said:

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We are taking about not taxing tips…sure could there be repercussions, yes, but really it would be insignificant at best.

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Did you read the OP? The risk is that it creates a loophole and you start seeing more tipping which wouldn't be insignificant.

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What new loophole? 99.99% of waiters already don't pay anything in taxes. It's all refunded to them.

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When I was a full time waiter right out of school, I always owed a few grand in taxes at the end of the year. And I even had professional tax guys doing my taxes for me, and still owed a few grand.

DrZ said:

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Does anyone really think most tips are reported to the IRS. i think this is not that significant.

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Most tips these days are credit card tips, which are reported to the IRS. You dont have to report cash tips, which are few and far between, unless you work at a cash only bar or restaurant.

So what is the expected tip when you go through a line , and you service yourself on drinks, silverware, and condiments?

They pre populate the 15-18-20% for you. It's getting absurd

More people with no skin in the game.

Petrino1 said:

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DrZ said:

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Does anyone really think most tips are reported to the IRS. i think this is not that significant.

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Most tips these days are credit card tips, which are reported to the IRS. You dont have to report cash tips, which are few and far between, unless you work at a cash only bar or restaurant.

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The IRS disagrees, and they have a system to check.

https://www.rrgconsulting.com/what-employers-need-to-know-about-tip-reporting.html

YouBet said:

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To be somewhat fair, has anyone brought up the fact that the point of sale systems that many businesses now use have a tip question built into the payment workflow? So on one hand you can't completely blame the person conducting the transaction. Technology has introduced some of this out of control tip trend.

On the other hand, I assume there may be a setting where the business can simply disable the tip ask. I've actually had people at the POS tell me not to tip before and to ignore that part of the payment workflow.

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I hate those things. No, I'm not going to tip the cashier at Cici's. Why are they even allowed to ask.

VegasAg86 said:

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IIIHorn said:

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VegasAg86 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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The loophole is already open. Your OP is pointless. If it were going to happen, it already would have. Nobody is tipping at McDonalds. If they tried to go to this, they would still end up having to pay minimum wage to cover the lack of tips to these employees. They would then continue losing workers to chains like Chick-fil-A that offer well above minimum wage for the same job with better customers.

---

The OP isn't about tipping at McDonalds or other low wage jobs. It is about creating a tax incentive to convert taxable earned income to untaxed tip income, regardless of the job. There will be a significant financial incentive to try to convert a $250k salary into $150k salary and $100k tip. There will absolutely be people looking to manipulate the system. Withstanding IRS scrutiny will be another question, but people will try.

---

Wow,


$500k is quite a meal!

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What part of "creating a tax incentive to convert taxable earned income to untaxed tip income, regardless of the job" didn't you understand? Note I said it won't withstand IRS scrutiny, but most changes to the tax code bring changes to behavior to take advantage of new rules. This would be no different.

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I understood it perfectly.

It was a joke.

I see that your head is not rant free.

DrZ said:

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Does anyone really think most tips are reported to the IRS. i think this is not that significant.

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Yes, most tips are credit card based and are taxed/reported. How can you not know this?

Spartacus said:

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So what is the expected tip when you go through a line , and you service yourself on drinks, silverware, and condiments?

They pre populate the 15-18-20% for you. It's getting absurd

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If I fill my own drink, I don't tip.

techno-ag said:

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Lower taxes are always better.

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This. There will be great benefits and little downside to lowering taxes. It's been proved time and time again.

Lower taxes are great, but why should we create a whole new class of people that pay no taxes?

Everyone needs skin in the game!


Dont give me this "waiters already don't pay taxes". If that's the case, then we don't need a new law, so we?


BAD Trump. Stick to what he did best last time: lower taxes!

My only complaint is that we should replace the word "tips" with the word "income."

Taxation is theft. But since there's no way we're gonna get that we should at least get the incentives right. Just more convolution in an absurdly complex tax system. For the love of god, simplify it.

Jeeper79 said:

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And yes, I get that tipping is, by nature, optional. But for some jobs, it's expected unless the service is truly terrible. I could totally see a period of desensitization after which it becomes expected for more and more professions.

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Last week I had a construction crew replaced my concrete driveway. There were six guys on the crew finishing concrete, and only one of them (the teenage son of the owner) spoke English. The total was about $7k. I paid the owner in crisp $100 bills, and then I gave each guy a $100 tip. I figure if Joe Biden is OK ignoring the immigration law then he should be OK with me and this crew of concrete finishes ignoring the tax laws.

Helicopter Ben said:

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My only complaint is that we should replace the word "tips" with the word "income."

Taxation is theft. But since there's no way we're gonna get that we should at least get the incentives right. Just more convolution in an absurdly complex tax system. For the love of god, simplify it.

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Correct. We either need a consumption tax or a flat tax on every dollar (without deductions or credits) that is voted on by the citizens and should never exceed 15%.

Tom Fox said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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My only complaint is that we should replace the word "tips" with the word "income."

Taxation is theft. But since there's no way we're gonna get that we should at least get the incentives right. Just more convolution in an absurdly complex tax system. For the love of god, simplify it.

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Correct. We either need a consumption tax or a flat tax on every dollar (without deductions or credits) that is voted on by the citizens and should never exceed 15%.

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Haw can you say taxation is theft and then advocate for a consumption tax?

dmart90 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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My only complaint is that we should replace the word "tips" with the word "income."

Taxation is theft. But since there's no way we're gonna get that we should at least get the incentives right. Just more convolution in an absurdly complex tax system. For the love of god, simplify it.

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Correct. We either need a consumption tax or a flat tax on every dollar (without deductions or credits) that is voted on by the citizens and should never exceed 15%.

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Haw can you say taxation is theft and then advocate for a consumption tax?

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Because it is the most fair way to tax and captures everything. If we are going to tax, everyone must have skin in the game and the feedback needs to be immediate. You cannot have the tax burden rest almost entirely on a minority of citizens.

Unless you are advocating to eliminate all taxes, I do not understand your ire?

And I am open to understanding how you would alternately fund national security and infrastructure.

Tipping is dumb. Restaurant industry convinced us to pay their employment costs

The world is burning, not taxing tips is attractive to some folks who might otherwise pull the lever for Biden. There are sooooooooo many other critical issue that Trump is right on. This give away I really don't care about.

Tell Judy and Johnny that their tips will not be taxed. Win the election and close the southern border hard, punish all Central and South American Countries that took advantage of Biden's gift. Deport all that can be deported.


None of it starts if Trump doesn't find away to squeeze as many votes out that he can to counter the cheating.

I doubt many pay their taxes on tips. Not much loss

Jeeper79 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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MelvinUdall said:

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We are taking about not taxing tips…sure could there be repercussions, yes, but really it would be insignificant at best.

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Did you read the OP? The risk is that it creates a loophole and you start seeing more tipping which wouldn't be insignificant.

---

What new loophole? 99.99% of waiters already don't pay anything in taxes. It's all refunded to them.

---

Its all in the OP but I'll break it down further.

Say you make $100k as a plumber. Now let's say you add a 20% mandatory tip line to the bill and reduce the core price by 20%. That's essentially legalized tax evasion, is it not? I guess someone could choose to bring the tip portion to $0, but how many people would?

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I do not care what they call it on the invoice; if it is mandatory, it is a service fee, not a tip.