I have heard this before, but just listened to it again. Such a juxtaposition between then and now. If you have not read "With the Old Breed" or Leckie's "Helmet For My Pillow", I encourage you to do so.
Sledge Hammer
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Last: 3 mo ago by CanyonAg77
Both are outstanding books! Not even sure we'd have the resolve to win a war 10% of the scale of WW2. We are so weak now and Gen Z are the leaders in weakness and America hating.
Thank you!
"With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" is one of the best books I've ever read. Incredible battlefield memoir. Definitely not the romanticized portrayal of World War II. The Pacific was an absolute brutal meat grinder.
outofstateaggie said:
"With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" is one the best books I've ever read. Incredible battlefield memoir. Definitely not the romanticized portrayal of World War II. The Pacific was an absolute brutal meat grinder.
Finishing up Supernova in the East which is Dan Carlin's podcast focused on the Japanese in WWII and he mentions this memoir as the best and most brutal one he's ever read.
It's really interesting that we don't really teach the Pacific War like we do the European campaign. Probably for obvious reasons. It was stunningly horrific and makes the European campaign look quaint in comparison.
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
Nm
P.U.T.U said:
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
I'm curious as to what was made up?
& then things here took a turn somehow.....
BarfKraft Punk said:
& then things here took a turn somehow.....
P.U.T.U said:
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
YouBet said:outofstateaggie said:
"With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" is one the best books I've ever read. Incredible battlefield memoir. Definitely not the romanticized portrayal of World War II. The Pacific was an absolute brutal meat grinder.
Finishing up Supernova in the East which is Dan Carlin's podcast focused on the Japanese in WWII and he mentions this memoir as the best and most brutal one he's ever read.
It's really interesting that we don't really teach the Pacific War like we do the European campaign. Probably for obvious reasons. It was stunningly horrific and makes the European campaign look quaint in comparison.
It's an interesting conversation and one I've had many times. What I think it boils down to, IMO, of course, is that the Euro campaign for was always a largely regimented and even formulaic war of good vs evil. Especially afterwards once the Nazis were finally defeated and able to be fully analyzed. We could hold our heads high and use our good guy methods (bombing campaigns notwithstanding) to ultimately triumph. It's the American Way^TM.
The war against Japan was more primal and brutal. It wasn't a war against a single man and his outer circle and his ideals. The Nazi party was the ultimate evil and very easy to paint as such. It was a symbol unto itself of everything we stood against. While on the other side it was a war against the Japanese spirit itself and in the words of SNAFU himself, "Ya gotta get mean". Rules of war largely didn't exist on the battlefield in the Pacific and that really damages the persona we like to have of ourselves and we didn't have a singular easy target we could focus against, aside from just the Japanese people. When troops attacked a Nazi position, it was war. When troops attacked a Japanese position, it was an extermination. In their own words mind you. And that's not exactly something America likes to highlight officially. So it gets pushed to the side a lot in our culture. It's truly wild to see the dichotomy of the fronts when you study them.
I actually think Bands of Brothers and The Pacific explore this perfectly. BoB was gritty and dark at times but the stakes are easy and the rules were largely set. The Pacific was about a war of brutality and what it does to the men who fought it. BoB was a set piece story of a military campaign filled with great characterization as the backdrop. The Pacific was the study of war and humanity itself and what it is capable of. Almost the exact opposite of BoB. While I will always love BoB, I will always appreciate the Pacific more. It explores the side of war America doesn't like to think about but should not be allowed to ignore.
ETA: There is a few volumes out there of German soldiers in the East that are just as bad probably if you are looking for grim campaigns to read. Carlin also has a series on this, called Ghosts of the Ost Front I believe. Really, really good as well.
YouBet said:outofstateaggie said:
"With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" is one the best books I've ever read. Incredible battlefield memoir. Definitely not the romanticized portrayal of World War II. The Pacific was an absolute brutal meat grinder.
Finishing up Supernova in the East which is Dan Carlin's podcast focused on the Japanese in WWII and he mentions this memoir as the best and most brutal one he's ever read.
It's really interesting that we don't really teach the Pacific War like we do the European campaign. Probably for obvious reasons. It was stunningly horrific and makes the European campaign look quaint in comparison.
South Africa would probably try to have us before the International Court of Justice. Not Japan of course, but us.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
That is a damn good summary. I also favor the Pacific both in my reading and interest. Great insight.Eliminatus said:YouBet said:outofstateaggie said:
"With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" is one the best books I've ever read. Incredible battlefield memoir. Definitely not the romanticized portrayal of World War II. The Pacific was an absolute brutal meat grinder.
Finishing up Supernova in the East which is Dan Carlin's podcast focused on the Japanese in WWII and he mentions this memoir as the best and most brutal one he's ever read.
It's really interesting that we don't really teach the Pacific War like we do the European campaign. Probably for obvious reasons. It was stunningly horrific and makes the European campaign look quaint in comparison.
It's an interesting conversation and one I've had many times. What I think it boils down to, IMO, of course, is that the Euro campaign for was always a largely regimented and even formulaic war of good vs evil. Especially afterwards once the Nazis were finally defeated and able to be fully analyzed. We could hold our heads high and use our good guy methods (bombing campaigns notwithstanding) to ultimately triumph. It's the American Way ^TM.
The war against Japan was more primal and brutal. It wasn't a war against a single man and his outer circle and his ideals. The Nazi party was the ultimate and very easy to paint as such evil. It was a symbol unto itself of everything we stood against. While on the other side It was a war against the Japanese spirit itself and in the words of SNAFU himself, "Ya gotta get mean". Rules of war largely didn't exist on the battlefield in the Pacific and that really damages the persona we like to have of ourselves and we didn't have a singular easy target we could focus against aside from just the Japanese people. When troops attacked a Nazi position, it was war. When troops attacked a Japanese position, it was an extermination. In their own words mind you. And that's not exactly something America likes to highlight officially. So it gets pushed to the side a lot in our culture. It's truly wild to see the dichotomy of the fronts when you study them.
I actually think Bands of Brothers and The Pacific explore this perfectly. Bob was gritty and dark at times but the stakes are easy and the rules were largely set. The Pacific was about a war of brutality and what it does to the men who fought it. BoB was a set piece story of a military campaign filled with great characterization as the backdrop. The Pacific was the study of war and humanity itself and what it is capable of. Almost the exact opposite. I will always love BoB but I will always appreciate the Pacific more. It explores the side of war America doesn't like to think about but should not be allowed to ignore.
There is a few volumes out there of German soldiers in the East that are just as bad probably if you are looking for grim campaigns to read. Carlin also has a series on this, called Ghosts of the Ost Front I believe. Really, really good as well.
Agree with all of that. Fighting the Japanese must have been like fighting radical Islam that was centralized and organized. Utterly irrational and suicidal culture and populace. The more you learn about it the more you realize why we used nukes.
The Japanese would murder and suicide their own families instead of surrendering to US soldiers. Just wild *****
It was also surprising to learn that the size of the naval forces we amassed to start attacking the home islands and Japan was larger than D Day. Most people don't know that.
The Japanese would murder and suicide their own families instead of surrendering to US soldiers. Just wild *****
It was also surprising to learn that the size of the naval forces we amassed to start attacking the home islands and Japan was larger than D Day. Most people don't know that.
P.U.T.U said:
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
Random drive by comment with no supporting statements. Care to explain what you meant or are you just trolling?
Yeah a dumb troll. Doing a web search I see no one who calls his memoirs lies or fiction. We've spent too much time paying attention to nothing.
Jocko was going over one of his books and was talking about how a few of the stories in his books were made up. Not shocking since stuff like that is still going on today (Marcus Luttrell and Chris Kyle got caught with false stories in their books).Stive said:P.U.T.U said:
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
Random drive by comment with no supporting statements. Care to explain what you meant or are you just trolling?
My history prof at A&M made the comparison that the Japanese were Klingons & the Germans were Romulans. (Apologies for the Star Trek reference, but it fits)Quote:
Bob was gritty and dark at times but the stakes are easy and the rules were largely set. The Pacific was about a war of brutality
Well, if Jocko said it, it must be true. How the hell would he know?P.U.T.U said:Jocko was going over one of his books and was talking about how a few of the stories in his books were made up. Not shocking since stuff like that is still going on today (Marcus Luttrell and Chris Kyle got caught with false stories in their books).Stive said:P.U.T.U said:
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
Random drive by comment with no supporting statements. Care to explain what you meant or are you just trolling?
Obligatory:
WTF is Jacko and why should we think he's suddenly telling the truth when literally NO ONE has said since it was first published 40+ years ago "With the Old Breed" was full of made up stories?usmcbrooks said:Well, if Jocko said it, it must be true. How the hell would he know?P.U.T.U said:Jocko was going over one of his books and was talking about how a few of the stories in his books were made up. Not shocking since stuff like that is still going on today (Marcus Luttrell and Chris Kyle got caught with false stories in their books).Stive said:P.U.T.U said:
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
Random drive by comment with no supporting statements. Care to explain what you meant or are you just trolling?
I bought those two books years ago but never got around to reading either. I have read many books about the fighting my dad was involved in but need to read these.ts5641 said:
Both are outstanding books! Not even sure we'd have the resolve to win a war 10% of the scale of WW2. We are so weak now and Gen Z are the leaders in weakness and America hating.
I have had the same thought about our resolve. Most of those fighting in WWII were used to pretty rough living conditions prior to the war and used to physical labor. They had been through the depression years and had lived in pretty poor conditions. My dad had lived in a tent for around three years.
During a couple of the hurricanes, we were without power like 11 days once, 12 or 13 the other. People nearly went insane without a/c, lol. Whenever I do anything outside in the heat for any length of time, I think about fighting in that sort of heat, getting shot at, not having adequate water, etc. The dad of a friend of mine fought in some bitter cold conditions in Europe and when it gets in the 20s here, I think about him basically living outside in even much colder temps, with no fire for heat. Bunch of tough guys. We are not made of the same material.
Additionally, I am not sure our leaders of today would have the guts to melt civilians like we did in August 1945. We would likely send our enemies money instead of bombs.
Jocko Willink, former S.E.A.L. officer and OIC of Task Unit Bruiser. Some people love him, and some absolutely despise the guy. A lot of Marines and SEALS were wia and kia do in part to his actions in Ramadi.agracer said:WTF is Jacko and why should we think he's suddenly telling the truth when literally NO ONE has said since it was first published 40+ years ago "With the Old Breed" was full of made up stories?usmcbrooks said:Well, if Jocko said it, it must be true. How the hell would he know?P.U.T.U said:Jocko was going over one of his books and was talking about how a few of the stories in his books were made up. Not shocking since stuff like that is still going on today (Marcus Luttrell and Chris Kyle got caught with false stories in their books).Stive said:P.U.T.U said:
Great books but sadly he made up a lot of things that never happened
Random drive by comment with no supporting statements. Care to explain what you meant or are you just trolling?
So Jocko has no first hand knowledge, got it!
I know a few things have been called into question over the years that civilians think "could never happen". The big one I remember was his telling of an accidental death of a Marine who had a freak out mental break on the line and they couldn't get him to be quiet (sound discipline was in full force) so they hit him with an e-tool to knock him out. Ended up dying.
Sledge names no names and no one ever stopped forth to corroborate with names so people years later didn't think it happened. Did it? I don't know. Could the situation exist where it could have? Absolutely. Does **** happen in war that we like to gloss over in the name of good publicity and not looking bad and even protecting people and image? Also hell yes. It sucks but things like this DO happen and it may get mentioned in passing but not many are exactly lining up to spill all. Especially from those days and generation.
People like to think the American military at that time were perfect little parade ground soldiers with perfect jawlines and "gee shucks" attitudes who took their rifles and shot perfect little holes in the bad men and took home the trophy after the game was called. The common American these days with no real historical knowledge has elevated them all to this perfect pantheon of the "Greatest Generation". I'm not saying it's wrong and that they were not great of course, they were. But it's also ridiculous to think that they were perfect avatars of righteous good in every aspect, incapable of mistakes and bad decisions. Which such an elevation of them can imply for many these days. They weren't. They fought a hellish war and mistakes and bad decisions happen. Like every other war ever fought. Like accidentally killing a comrade instead of just knocking him out.
Sledge names no names and no one ever stopped forth to corroborate with names so people years later didn't think it happened. Did it? I don't know. Could the situation exist where it could have? Absolutely. Does **** happen in war that we like to gloss over in the name of good publicity and not looking bad and even protecting people and image? Also hell yes. It sucks but things like this DO happen and it may get mentioned in passing but not many are exactly lining up to spill all. Especially from those days and generation.
People like to think the American military at that time were perfect little parade ground soldiers with perfect jawlines and "gee shucks" attitudes who took their rifles and shot perfect little holes in the bad men and took home the trophy after the game was called. The common American these days with no real historical knowledge has elevated them all to this perfect pantheon of the "Greatest Generation". I'm not saying it's wrong and that they were not great of course, they were. But it's also ridiculous to think that they were perfect avatars of righteous good in every aspect, incapable of mistakes and bad decisions. Which such an elevation of them can imply for many these days. They weren't. They fought a hellish war and mistakes and bad decisions happen. Like every other war ever fought. Like accidentally killing a comrade instead of just knocking him out.
I had the absolute privilege of getting to know a Iwo Jima vet pretty well before he passed away.Hunted with him many times and drank a lot of beer with him and his son. What you say above mirrors what he related to me. He was 19 when he was on Iwo. His words, "He was just a scared Mexican kid from Laredo that was placed in the middle of hell." Proudest Marine you would ever meet.Eliminatus said:
I know a few things have been called into question over the years that civilians think "could never happen". The big one I remember was his telling of an accidental death of a Marine who had a freak out mental break on the line and they couldn't get him to be quiet (sound discipline was in full force) so they hit him with an e-tool to knock him out. Ended up dying.
Sledge names no names and no one ever stopped forth to corroborate with names so people years later didn't think it happened. Did it? I don't know. Could the situation exist where it could have? Absolutely. Does **** happen in war that we like to gloss over in the name of good publicity and not looking bad and even protecting people and image? Also hell yes. It sucks but things like this DO happen and it may get mentioned in passing but not many are exactly lining up to spill all. Especially from those days and generation.
People like to think the American military at that time were perfect little parade ground soldiers with perfect jawlines and "gee shucks" attitudes who took their rifles and shot perfect little holes in the bad men and took home the trophy after the game was called. The common American these days with no real historical knowledge has elevated them all to this perfect pantheon of the "Greatest Generation". I'm not saying it's wrong and that they were not great of course, they were. But it's also ridiculous to think that they were perfect avatars of righteous good in every aspect, incapable of mistakes and bad decisions. Which such an elevation of them can imply for many these days. They weren't. They fought a hellish war and mistakes and bad decisions happen. Like every other war ever fought. Like accidentally killing a comrade instead of just knocking him out.
Rip Gilbert Trevino '52
https://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/press-releases/gilberto-trevino/
For anyone interested the book "The Pineapple Air Force" is an interesting read.
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
Zelenskyy's face lmaoKraft Punk said:
& then things here took a turn somehow.....
Good God this administration and the Dems are embarrassing our country to no end
Of what Sledge and the rest of the Marines went through in Peleliu and Okinawa in 1944-45? I would say no, Jocko does not have firsthand knowledge.BQ78 said:
So Jocko has no first hand knowledge, got it!
I think that is part of it, but a significant part of the differences in the teaching and how history generally views it are based on a couple of things as well:Eliminatus said:YouBet said:outofstateaggie said:
"With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" is one the best books I've ever read. Incredible battlefield memoir. Definitely not the romanticized portrayal of World War II. The Pacific was an absolute brutal meat grinder.
Finishing up Supernova in the East which is Dan Carlin's podcast focused on the Japanese in WWII and he mentions this memoir as the best and most brutal one he's ever read.
It's really interesting that we don't really teach the Pacific War like we do the European campaign. Probably for obvious reasons. It was stunningly horrific and makes the European campaign look quaint in comparison.
It's an interesting conversation and one I've had many times. What I think it boils down to, IMO, of course, is that the Euro campaign for was always a largely regimented and even formulaic war of good vs evil. Especially afterwards once the Nazis were finally defeated and able to be fully analyzed. We could hold our heads high and use our good guy methods (bombing campaigns notwithstanding) to ultimately triumph. It's the American Way ^TM.
The war against Japan was more primal and brutal. It wasn't a war against a single man and his outer circle and his ideals. The Nazi party was the ultimate and very easy to paint as such evil. It was a symbol unto itself of everything we stood against. While on the other side It was a war against the Japanese spirit itself and in the words of SNAFU himself, "Ya gotta get mean". Rules of war largely didn't exist on the battlefield in the Pacific and that really damages the persona we like to have of ourselves and we didn't have a singular easy target we could focus against aside from just the Japanese people. When troops attacked a Nazi position, it was war. When troops attacked a Japanese position, it was an extermination. In their own words mind you. And that's not exactly something America likes to highlight officially. So it gets pushed to the side a lot in our culture. It's truly wild to see the dichotomy of the fronts when you study them.
I actually think Bands of Brothers and The Pacific explore this perfectly. Bob was gritty and dark at times but the stakes are easy and the rules were largely set. The Pacific was about a war of brutality and what it does to the men who fought it. BoB was a set piece story of a military campaign filled with great characterization as the backdrop. The Pacific was the study of war and humanity itself and what it is capable of. Almost the exact opposite. I will always love BoB but I will always appreciate the Pacific more. It explores the side of war America doesn't like to think about but should not be allowed to ignore.
There is a few volumes out there of German soldiers in the East that are just as bad probably if you are looking for grim campaigns to read. Carlin also has a series on this, called Ghosts of the Ost Front I believe. Really, really good as well.
1. It was largely a sea war fought from aircraft carriers with aircraft over locations in the Pacific that you can't really visit like you can with the battlefields of the European theater. You can't see the craters caused by 16" battleship shells, you can't see and walk and feel the terrain like you can at Normandy, etc. That makes it more of a story than reality, because you can't really see, touch, feel the same spot that men fought and died on like you can Normandy or the Battle of the Bulge or any of the hundreds of battle locations en route to Germany. For that matter, you really don't get the same sense of the war when the Battle of Britian is discussed either, because it wasn't a battle in the traditional sense. The few battlefields that were on land are often near impossible to get to, or far more difficult than those in France and Belgium and Germany, and the climate and nature tend to be far less forgiving on a tropical atoll in the south Pacific than they are on mainland Europe.
2. In this day and age you have to acknowledge the facts dealing with race. Because we are largely European descent and because most of the history of our country can be traced back to Europe, we have tended to historically focus on that area of the world. In part because of our lineage, but also in part because, generally speaking, we are the same as they are in terms of looks. Throw in the fact that for centuries Japan was isolated and outside of a small contingent of the population that focuses on eastern Asian cultures - the Japanese culture is largely still foreign to us. We don't study Japanese history in school, but we all earn at least the basics of European history. People gravitate to what they know, and whether the current social trend wants to admit it or not, people also gravitate to those that look like them. All things in nature do that.
You talk to 100 guys that were in situations like Ramadi and you get 300 different stories about what happened or didn't happen or who screwed up, etc.
There are as many people that say XYZ happened as there are that say ABC happened - who to believe is up to you, but ultimately it comes down to mostly from what perspective each person views the event(s), their ability to remember details, and how much of their memory is corrupted by what they hear and read from others.
Usually it is a case of everything turning to sht and too many knee jerk reactions that have ripple effects. Throw in a whole lot of contradicting personalities and egos and it only gets worse from there.
There are as many people that say XYZ happened as there are that say ABC happened - who to believe is up to you, but ultimately it comes down to mostly from what perspective each person views the event(s), their ability to remember details, and how much of their memory is corrupted by what they hear and read from others.
Usually it is a case of everything turning to sht and too many knee jerk reactions that have ripple effects. Throw in a whole lot of contradicting personalities and egos and it only gets worse from there.
Factor in that when the book was first published a lot of those guys probably never picked it up, or even heard about it. I never heard about it until I stumbled across it in the mid 90's.
It became a lot more know after "The Pacific" but by then, so many of those guys were already dead so it's not like a lot of them were around to dispute anything.
That, and even if some of them did read it, they probably just thought "yup, that happened" but certainly were not going to step forward and claim credit for something, or point the finger at someone else. Those guys hardly talked about the war except among themselves.
My Grandfather was in the Army Corps of Engineers and build a lof of the runways on Okinawa in 1945. He had to go into a cave to try and get a Japanese hold out to surrender. He was an officer and "didn't feel right asking any of my men to do a job I would not do" so he went in to get him out. Guy would not come out or surrender so he had to shoot him. Brought home a Japanese battle flag. I only ever heard that story second hand until I was visiting with my wife one Easter and she saw the flag while she was standing in their hallway looking at family photos on the wall. She had no clue about the story, but saw the flag and asked my GrandPa, "what's that" and he goes on for 10-minutes telling this story. I was shocked because he'd never talked about the war even though he never really saw any action outside of that one incident.
It became a lot more know after "The Pacific" but by then, so many of those guys were already dead so it's not like a lot of them were around to dispute anything.
That, and even if some of them did read it, they probably just thought "yup, that happened" but certainly were not going to step forward and claim credit for something, or point the finger at someone else. Those guys hardly talked about the war except among themselves.
My Grandfather was in the Army Corps of Engineers and build a lof of the runways on Okinawa in 1945. He had to go into a cave to try and get a Japanese hold out to surrender. He was an officer and "didn't feel right asking any of my men to do a job I would not do" so he went in to get him out. Guy would not come out or surrender so he had to shoot him. Brought home a Japanese battle flag. I only ever heard that story second hand until I was visiting with my wife one Easter and she saw the flag while she was standing in their hallway looking at family photos on the wall. She had no clue about the story, but saw the flag and asked my GrandPa, "what's that" and he goes on for 10-minutes telling this story. I was shocked because he'd never talked about the war even though he never really saw any action outside of that one incident.
I have both the Sledge and the Leckie books in my library as well as the Ambrose BoB. Watched BoB and Pacific together, alternating between the episodes. Absent were the personal accounts of the principal precipitants in 'Pacific' and that gave BoB the edge acceptance in the characters. The inclusion of John Basilone, a character in his own right, had nothing to do with Leckie of the 1st Marines or Sledge of the 5rh Marines. Basilone served in the 7th Marines and his service with Chesty Puller deserved its own story.
None the less the Pacific campaigns were undoubtably horrific., Readings of the New Guinea Campaign and the Kokoda Track or John Master's "Road Past Mandalay". reenforces the intensity of combat against Japanese forces.
None the less the Pacific campaigns were undoubtably horrific., Readings of the New Guinea Campaign and the Kokoda Track or John Master's "Road Past Mandalay". reenforces the intensity of combat against Japanese forces.
I disagree with your generational assessments. Millennials have been the foot soldiers of the woke, CRT, and trans movements. Gen Z males in particular are getting red-pilled and are the most conservative youth in generations.ts5641 said:
Both are outstanding books! Not even sure we'd have the resolve to win a war 10% of the scale of WW2. We are so weak now and Gen Z are the leaders in weakness and America hating.
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