There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

Yep, we're screwed! I hate to think it.

I agree with you but will add a couple of points. From a budget balancing standpoint it's Medi-care and social security. It's tough to cut defense to much as the U.S gets a huge windfall from being the lone world power( for now) .

Other spending programs have a large influence on the budget but these items have a secondary effect. Government programs can be used to send strong messages and influence how people behave. I'm not going to go into the weeds about what our government messaging and programs have primarily focused on the last 12 years but it has not been training a work force with technical skills and giving people the tools needed to be independent contributing members of society.

Productive citizens give you a bigger tax base.

You are mixing up spending. Defense is discretionary. The others are mandatory.

Interest on the debt is larger than defense spending now. In 3 years, interest will be larger than Medicare, SS and defense.

None of the 3 known candidates is fiscally conservative, either. Biden and Oliver are progressives and Trump (who I've relegated myself to voting for) is a liberal.

So, yes, we're screwed.

This is why down ballot is as important, if not moreso, than the top of the ticket. If Trump wins, hopefully they can rein in any dumbassery. If it's a Dem, same-same.

For a start, we could go back to 2019 spending levels.

Would be a great sign if govt spending increases would just slow dramatically

Starting with the economy crash in '08-09 and then the pandemic we've had two huge resets to the floor of
Govt spending that were positioned as one off temporary spending. Just pure insanity without accountability

The federal government exists only for a limited number of tasks and oversight. Mutual defense is at the top of the list. Most of the current federal government and agencies far exceeds what is mandated in the Constitution.

The federal government could be cut into a fraction of what it is and the country would not only function but would thrive.

Unfortunately, government doesn't cut itself but rather continues to bloat.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

You can't raise taxes enough to cut the debt. Math can't get there.

Spending cuts won't ever happen.

The only solution is total implosion and reboot.

YouBet said:

---

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

You can't raise taxes enough to cut the debt. Math can't get there.

Spending cuts won't ever happen.

The only solution is total implosion and reboot.

---

Yes, nothing is getting changed until it's mathematically impossible to not change it. If the Dems are in charge at that time, full blown tyranny and control will be introduced.

I'm quite sure they have a plan in place with what they will do, and have had such a plan since 2008 at least.

You forgot the 3rd option (and the most likely):

Inflate the crap out of the dollar.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

Here's the breakdown for 2022...

Mandatory is $4.1T...

SS - $1.2T
MC/MA - $1.339
Income Security - $581B
Student loans - $482B
Other? - $520B

Discretionary Is $1.7T

Non-defense - $910B
Defense - $751B

Net Interest -
$475B


So....looks like "mandatory" is the biggest problem. FDR and LBJ deserve a special place in hell for dumping this on us...

How about we start with cutting Student loans and Other from the mandatory budget. That gets us $1.002T

Then, cut non-defense in half, that's another $455B.

Spending was $6.3T and revenues were $4.9, for a deficit of $1.4T. I just got you $1.457T.

Problem solved...put that extra $57B towards the debt.

CowPieAndFries said:

---

I agree with you but will add a couple of points. From a budget balancing standpoint it's Medi-care and social security. It's tough to cut defense to much as the U.S gets a huge windfall from being the lone world power( for now) .

Other spending programs have a large influence on the budget but these items have a secondary effect. Government programs can be used to send strong messages and influence how people behave. I'm not going to go into the weeds about what our government messaging and programs have primarily focused on the last 12 years but it has not been training a work force with technical skills and giving people the tools needed to be independent contributing members of society.

Productive citizens give you a bigger tax base.

---

Compared to SS/MC which is $3.12T, defense is a drop in the bucket nowadays...

Entitlements and welfare are the biggest parts of the budget.

When there are plenty of jobs, welfare recipients should be few and far between.

Too many baby mama's are getting free housing and steaks. Something has to change to discourage out of wedlock babies or we are doomed as a culture.

Single motherhood is killing and undermining generations of Americans.

And when you have a defense department that can't account for hundreds of billions, their budget needs to be cut as well.

The only way to get the defense department to begin to operate efficiently is to cut their budget and I don't mean "cuts" the way congress does them where they just 'don't increase the budget as much as they planned to'

I mean actually decrease their budget year over year.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

You missed the third option.

Failure.

Let us start with a "good show" on spend cuts. Cut congressional pay/privileges by 50%.
AOC can go back to bar tending.

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Entitlements and welfare are the biggest parts of the budget.

When there are plenty of jobs, welfare recipients should be few and far between.

Too many baby mama's are getting free housing and steaks. Something has to change to discourage out of wedlock babies or we are doomed as a culture.

Single motherhood is killing and undermining generations of Americans.

And when you have a defense department that can't account for hundreds of billions, their budget needs to be cut as well.

---

The social safety net encompasses more than baby mama's.

Sure it is. My point was that subsidizing decisions that hurt society with ever increasing dollars is bad for both society and the budget.

What exactly was your point?

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Entitlements and welfare are the biggest parts of the budget.

When there are plenty of jobs, welfare recipients should be few and far between.

Too many baby mama's are getting free housing and steaks. Something has to change to discourage out of wedlock babies or we are doomed as a culture.

Single motherhood is killing and undermining generations of Americans.

And when you have a defense department that can't account for hundreds of billions, their budget needs to be cut as well.

The only way to get the defense department to begin to operate efficiently is to cut their budget and I don't mean "cuts" the way congress does them where they just 'don't increase the budget as much as they planned to'

I mean actually decrease their budget year over year.

---

I will say that most times, DoD projects cost what they do because the government requirements are so demanding...

Cutting spending and promoting strong economic growth based in manufacturing would strengthen the dollar and the country. Of course, this approach is equally unpopular with the traitors in charge.

Just had this discussion with some folks yesterday.

I'm voting for Trump with conviction so don't kill me...

The interest rate will have to get jacked up Volker style to put a stop to this. Combined with dramatic cuts in government spending, I could see getting this monster back to a 2% range.

But the overall economy would be a full-scale disaster.

I don't think Trump would have the balls to do this. Quite frankly there are only 2-3 politicians who would have the fortitude to do this. And none are in the running now.

However I do see a Trump admin getting inflation consistently below the 4-5% range vs the 6+% we have been living with. Dialing back Biden and Obama spending and programs would probably take 1-2% (maybe more) out of the inflation.

I agree with other posters...the debt level we have now could easily turn into a currency crisis.

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

Or

• eliminate wasteful spending
• Eliminate or greatly reduce wasteful federal departments EPA, Dept. of Education to mention a couple
• Stop funding countries, especially those that want to destroy us, like Iran.
• Stop funding or greatly reduce U.N. funding
• Stop or greatly reduce subsidies for bull**** projects like green initiatives.
• Stop funding the program used to bury sexual harassment by our Congress critters.
• Eliminate President Obama's bull**** health care grift.
• Eliminate all aid to illegal aliens and just offer bus passes back to Mexico.

I could be wrong but the above should cover at least a trillion or two of the waste.

A good chunk of ag tagers get their bread and butter from trickle down defense spending. Don't rock that boat.

There is only one solution...

Invade Mexico.... fix it up... flip it.


#profit

Every and any cut will result in a huge loss of money for the business sector. Cut welfare and every company associated with food and housing are going to be pissed. Cut defense and every business that has contracts with the government is going to be equally pissed.

Seeing as how politicians are owned by every business known to man, I wouldn't bet on anything major being done to those two (welfare and defense).

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

A stop the fraud of our govt and selling us out

B get rid of the fed Reserve and take back our money

C seize the assets of the trillionnaires as it's proven that they've done things to kill the population. Yes trillionnaires.

How so bear? That's me.

COVID
Vaccines
Viruses

All created by man
Didn't just naturally happen.

Weather altering devices

Population control measures
Food manipulation
War creation
Child trafficking

Who's the reason this happens?

Well there's always the other side of the equation

Who owns /controls the 75 trillion in nat debt, state debt, unfunded liabilities?

There is your answer

That's who controls and manipulates the world

Let's look at the border. That's not because of dummies. That's orchestrated and done in purpose.

That's destroying our country and setting us up for an invasion , maybe around Oct /Nov to stop the election.

Those folks have to be stopped before the budget is even considered. Because it's all full of pork aka money laundering back to
Donors that funds the assets to those in power.

We the people are being ripped off daily.

When those folks assets are seized and they are sent to their savior on the fiery furnace. We will take our country back.

Ag with kids said:

---

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Entitlements and welfare are the biggest parts of the budget.

When there are plenty of jobs, welfare recipients should be few and far between.

Too many baby mama's are getting free housing and steaks. Something has to change to discourage out of wedlock babies or we are doomed as a culture.

Single motherhood is killing and undermining generations of Americans.

And when you have a defense department that can't account for hundreds of billions, their budget needs to be cut as well.

The only way to get the defense department to begin to operate efficiently is to cut their budget and I don't mean "cuts" the way congress does them where they just 'don't increase the budget as much as they planned to'

I mean actually decrease their budget year over year.

---

I will say that most times, DoD projects cost what they do because the government requirements are so demanding...

---

From Senator Grassley
Last year, the DOD failed its fifth audit and was unable to account for over half of its assets, which are in excess of $3.1 trillion, or roughly 78 percent of the entire federal government.

So the argument you are going to go with is that 3.1 trillion of unaccounted for spending is because the government has erroneous specs for equipment?

Bold move.

I noted also u are one of the biggest proponents and defenders of untraceable, unending, and infinite Ukraine funding......coincidence?

Raising taxes is NOT a solution.

1) the math doesn't work, the debt is too big

2) Raising the tax rate does not equate to increased tax revenue. It just stifles the economy and makes people suffer and turns them into bigger tax cheats.

Unfortunately, it also makes it easier for politicians to dispense valuable favors and offers them an easy way to increase and monetize their power. That is why calls for a simpler, cleaner, fairer tax code structure never gain traction

K2-HMFIC said:

---

There are two options:

Cut Defense + SS + Medicare

Or

Raise Taxes.

Any discussion of cuts to non-discretionary spending is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't see how any administration wants to do either of these.

---

1. Tax rates should not be the discussion. Tax revenue needs to be the focus. It can successfully argued that raising tax rates actually lowers tax revenue in a shockingly quick period of time. In the past I have read, and I cannot find the information now, that the optimal tax rate for maximizing tax revenue is 18%. Both 0% and 100% bring in zero revenue and the rate maximizing tax revenue is somewhere in between. The paper I referenced used the 18% number as a level high enough to generate a base level of tax revenue but low enough to have a robust economy that stimulates economic churn. Meaning a guy's lower tax rate has left him enough money to buy a television. How many people have increased income as a result of that one sale? Materials for the product, production of the product, transportation of the product, sale of the product, capital appreciation of the assets all along the chain of that product. And then the ancillary benefits from that one sale - support staff for every part of the chain, tires for the trucks that transport and deliver the product, people to produce the materials for tires for the trucks, the truck and truck driver vendors, sales people for the tv and the tire and everything in between, etc. Raise tax rates and take away a consumer's potential to buy a new television and you eliminate layer upon layer of tax revenue producing activity. So kill the chicken and get a chicken dinner for one night or feed the chicken and eat eggs for years.

It is an exponential effect the lower tax rate creates that generates significantly higher tax revenue. Everyone is making more so they are spending more money and everyone is creating/paying more tax revenue. And since there is near equal production to consumption there is limited inflationary price increases.

2. The United States government spends more money on mismanaged health care than national defense. And it's largely due to the corruption layered between the food industry, big Pharma and politicians.

So a higher tax rate and the elimination of reasonable government services is not the solution. The correct answer to solving our problem is an 18% tax rate and the elimination of corruption in our elected officials, neither of which will happen.

So now what? Invest in the Industrial Military Complex and Big Pharma and gird yourself up for the eventual apocalypse. After all, that what they guys in charge of this debacle are doing. As the saying goes, "you can't fight Mother Nature".

fixer said:

---

Just had this discussion with some folks yesterday.

I'm voting for Trump with conviction so don't kill me...

The interest rate will have to get jacked up Volker style to put a stop to this. Combined with dramatic cuts in government spending, I could see getting this monster back to a 2% range.

But the overall economy would be a full-scale disaster.

I don't think Trump would have the balls to do this. Quite frankly there are only 2-3 politicians who would have the fortitude to do this. And none are in the running now.

However I do see a Trump admin getting inflation consistently below the 4-5% range vs the 6+% we have been living with. Dialing back Biden and Obama spending and programs would probably take 1-2% (maybe more) out of the inflation.

I agree with other posters...the debt level we have now could easily turn into a currency crisis.

---

You can't. When Volcker took us to 20% we had $1T in debt.

20% on $35T in debt is apocalyptic.

Country would implode. It's the reason they only move in .25 increments now. Big moves like Volcker are no longer possible without imploding the country.

Ironically, implosion is the only way out so if we want to accelerate that then they could pull a Volcker and end the US as we currently know it.

Sad but very true. Politicians learned in 2008 that they could save our economy and their jobs by adding huge amounts of government debt. They have all been doing exactly this since 2008.

To drastically cut government spending and/ or drastically raise taxes would kill our economy/ country and the party doing so would be blamed for a decade or more. Political Suicide.

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Entitlements and welfare are the biggest parts of the budget.

When there are plenty of jobs, welfare recipients should be few and far between.

Too many baby mama's are getting free housing and steaks. Something has to change to discourage out of wedlock babies or we are doomed as a culture.

Single motherhood is killing and undermining generations of Americans.

And when you have a defense department that can't account for hundreds of billions, their budget needs to be cut as well.

The only way to get the defense department to begin to operate efficiently is to cut their budget and I don't mean "cuts" the way congress does them where they just 'don't increase the budget as much as they planned to'

I mean actually decrease their budget year over year.

---

I will say that most times, DoD projects cost what they do because the government requirements are so demanding...

---

From Senator Grassley
Last year, the DOD failed its fifth audit and was unable to account for over half of its assets, which are in excess of $3.1 trillion, or roughly 78 percent of the entire federal government.

So the argument you are going to go with is that 3.1 trillion of unaccounted for spending is because the government has erroneous specs for equipment?

Bold move.

I noted also u are one of the biggest proponents and defenders of untraceable, unending, and infinite Ukraine funding......coincidence?

---

No...I didn't say anything like that. But, nice strawman.

And your Ukraine comment is also another nice strawman, so bravo...a twofer!!!

A balanced budget and a stream lined government are not going to happen before a collapse. For some reason the financial health of government is tied to one party and that party can't do anything without the other party being equally committed.

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Sure it is. My point was that subsidizing decisions that hurt society with ever increasing dollars is bad for both society and the budget.

What exactly was your point?

---

Essentially same as yours except that more than baby mama's are being supported. Such as baby daddy's, baby's cousins, blah, blah, blah.