When does Trump have to pay $355 MM?

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Stat Monitor Repairman
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11:01a, 3/21/24
Companies have been pushed to include the threat of climate change in their annual report as a business risk.

Will they also be required to include the threat of politically motivated prosecution as a business risk?

How many companies are sitting on books right now where a NY prosecutor can ostensibly make a fraud case in the same manner?

Should investors be put on notice of that risk?

Or are companies considered safe so long as they are not named Trump and continue to distance themselves from Trump?
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captkirk
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In reply to Antoninus • 11:02a, 3/21/24
AG
Antoninus said:
I agree with about 99% of what you just posted. A part of the problem, IMO is that too many people (including lawyers) have fallen into the trap of describing the award as "damages." using that terminology has a tendency to influence people (again, including lawyers) to evaluate the award based upon preconceptions regarding legal "damages."

The statute says nothing about damages. It uses the term "relief.". I suspect that that choice of language was entirely intentional.

But I do agree with you that Engeron calculated the "relief" entirely incorrectly. Both as to the (incremental interest) and the "unjust enrichment" for lack of a better term.
I'm sure this was just an accidental oversight
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aggiehawg
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 11:05a, 3/21/24
AG
Quote:
How many companies are sitting on books right now where a NY prosecutor can ostensibly make a fraud case in the same manner?

Should investors be put on notice of that risk?

Or are companies considered safe so long as they are not named Trump and continue to distance themselves from Trump?
Well the Governor has already come out and said this was a Trump only prosecution and no other businesses will be similarly targeted.

So there's that, I guess.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to aggiehawg • 11:07a, 3/21/24
If the governor comes out and says that, and the AG ran on a 'get Trump' platform ... where does that leave us?
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Antoninus
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In reply to captkirk • 11:07a, 3/21/24
captkirk said:
Quote:
]But I do agree with you that Engeron calculated the "relief" entirely incorrectly. Both as to the "incremental interest" and the "unjust enrichment" for lack of a better term.
I'm sure this was just an accidental oversight
personally, I think it's because Engeron is not particularly bright, and was beyond his intellectusl depth on the case.
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Antoninus
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In reply to aggiehawg • 11:11a, 3/21/24
aggiehawg said:
Well the Governor has already come out and said this was a Trump only prosecution and no other businesses will be similarly targeted.
not really exactly what she said. I am paraphrasing, but what she basically said was "businesses who follow the law" need not be worried.

You have to remember the nature of the allegations against Trump in this case. The allegation was not that he expressed unrealistic opinions regarding the valuations of his properties. The allegation was that he intentionally and knowingly overstated values.

The reported opinion is almost 100 pages, and about half of that constitutes an outline of all in which he fabricated valuations out of whole cloth.

maybe I am nave, but I don't think many businesses do that
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 11:22a, 3/21/24
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
If the governor comes out and says that, and the AG ran on a 'get Trump' platform ... where does that leave us?
It leaves us right where Venezuela was after the year 2000 when the their judicial system was turned against political opponents and used to divest them of privately held property.

Another thing that happened there is Chavez weaponized squatters / (migrants) to go in and cause chaos wrecking the marketability of property causing further destabilization. This caused major O&G and ag/food companies to pull out of Venezuela entirely which further eroded the tax base leading to total economic collapse within the decade.

We watching the global marxist smoke draw in super slo-mo.

I get it that people hate Trump but it's not really about Trump here. It's about weaponization of the judicial system and destabilization of the basis of economy itself under the assumption that NY is too big to fail.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to Antoninus • 11:29a, 3/21/24
Quote:
"businesses who follow the law" need not be worried.
The 2024 version of 'if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor,' no?
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to Antoninus • 11:43a, 3/21/24
Quote:
maybe I am nave, but I don't think many businesses do that
Every successful business in the world leverages their existing assets to get a loan on those assets, and they try to do so on the most favorable terms possible.

What Trump did is standard throughout every industry, world wide. The global economy operates on that basis.

By prosecuting Trump for this the State of New York invites unintended consequences.

NY is in a unique position because it is the clearing house for most of the money that flows in, out and through the US.

NY has the attitude that they'll do what they please because theres no alternative. But there is an alternative, and over the next few years we're about to find that out.

What NY is doing will further push the world in to two global economic regimes. One based in CBDC and one based in BRICS.
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aggiehawg
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 11:53a, 3/21/24
AG
Quote:
NY has the attitude that they'll do what they please because theres no alternative. But there is an alternative, and over the next few years we're about to find that out.
Hedgies are leaving NYC for Miami. REITS are heading south as well. Commercial real estate was already in trouble because of the WFH rules during covid as we are seeing not only in NYC but in San Fran and other places as well. Too much empty office space with low to no new demand being created cannot be supportable forever as leases come up for renewal and are not being renewed.

There is no quick fix for any of that even before this ridiculous ruling. Not worth the risk to invest there going forward when there are gains to be made elsewhere that do have demand already.
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txwxman
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11:54a, 3/21/24
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'. Shareholders will sell their shares in your company if you're not challenging the Justice system to come after you. Where would Enron and Worldcom be today if they followed all the rules?
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11:56a, 3/21/24
NY has handed the remote to the dildo of consequences to some crazy lady named Letitia.
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fredfredunderscorefred
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11:57a, 3/21/24
AG
Add in that one of the people from the bank testified that what Trump did is standard and par for the course and they discount every rich persons SFCs, and the AG potentially has a goldmine of potential "fraudsters" to go after. Just depends on whether they cross her and she decides to "get them" like she said she would do for Trump.
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Antoninus
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 11:59a, 3/21/24
you really, really don't "get it," do you? You just cannot accept the possibility that Trump actually committed intentional fraud, rather than just being overly optimistic about the value of his assets.

and I am not saying that he absolutely did so.

I am saying that the allegations in the lawsuit are that he did so. The allegations are that he did something VERY different than standard practice in the industry. and after extensive discovery and a long, detailed trial, a court agreed that the allegations were accurate.

You just don't agree with the court
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Ellis Wyatt
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In reply to txwxman • 11:59a, 3/21/24
txwxman said:
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'. Shareholders will sell their shares in your company if you're not challenging the Justice system to come after you. Where would Enron and Worldcom be today if they followed all the rules?
Digusting. And an absolute misrepresentation of the facts.

But hey, your side is winning, so it's all good.
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Antoninus
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In reply to txwxman • 12:01p, 3/21/24
txwxman said:
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'. Shareholders will sell their shares in your company if you're not challenging the Justice system to come after you. Where would Enron and Worldcom be today if they followed all the rules?

"I don't care about an audit. I only care whether we win."
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aggiehawg
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In reply to fredfredunderscorefred • 12:02p, 3/21/24
AG
Quote:
Add in that one of the people from the bank testified that what Trump did is standard and par for the course and they discount every rich persons SFCs,
Lenders subject to the FDIC have to conduct their own due diligence in assessing Loan to Value decisions because the FDIC monitors that stuff constantly. Those loans are papered, repapered and repapered again.
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Antoninus
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In reply to fredfredunderscorefred • 12:03p, 3/21/24
fredfredunderscorefred said:
Add in that one of the people from the bank testified that what Trump did is standard and par for the course and they discount every rich persons SFCs.
they definitely testified that they did not rely on the financial statements. No one contests that.

But I have not seen anything to the effect that any bank representative testified that intentional misrepresentations are "standard"

for some reason, a large percentage of Trumpists have convinced themselves that the man is some sort of messianic figure. He just isn't.
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ThunderCougarFalconBird
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In reply to aggiehawg • 12:05p, 3/21/24
AG
aggiehawg said:
Quote:
NY has the attitude that they'll do what they please because theres no alternative. But there is an alternative, and over the next few years we're about to find that out.
Hedgies are leaving NYC for Miami. REITS are heading south as well. Commercial real estate was already in trouble because of the WFH rules during covid as we are seeing not only in NYC but in San Fran and other places as well. Too much empty office space with low to no new demand being created cannot be supportable forever as leases come up for renewal and are not being renewed.

There is no quick fix for any of that even before this ridiculous ruling. Not worth the risk to invest there going forward when there are gains to be made elsewhere that do have demand already.
this. Also, older class A space in NYC (and really, across the country) is absolutely getting wrecked because they can't compete with newer space on quality, trying to keep pace on amenities isn't generating enough returns, and there's just no demand. Lots of older class A buildings out there with occupancy rates below 50% and shrinking rent rolls.
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Tea Party
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In reply to aggiehawg • 12:07p, 3/21/24
aggiehawg said:
Quote:
Add in that one of the people from the bank testified that what Trump did is standard and par for the course and they discount every rich persons SFCs,
Lenders subject to the FDIC have to conduct their own due diligence in assessing Loan to Value decisions because the FDIC monitors that stuff constantly. Those loans are papered, repapered and repapered again.
Exactly.

But if we trusted banks to do their due diligence like they are required to do, then big gov can't use the convoluted legal system to go after political opponents.
Learn about the Texas Nationalist Movement
https://tnm.me
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Ag with kids
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In reply to Antoninus • 12:11p, 3/21/24
AG
Antoninus said:
you really, really don't "get it," do you? You just cannot accept the possibility that Trump actually committed intentional fraud, rather than just being overly optimistic about the value of his assets.

and I am not saying that he absolutely did so.

I am saying that the allegations in the lawsuit are that he did so. The allegations are that he did something VERY different than standard practice in the industry. and after extensive discovery and a long, detailed trial, a court agreed that the allegations were accurate.

You just don't agree with the court
The long detailed trial where the judge, that you already admit was in way over his head, issued summary judgement so that he was the only person deciding on the facts?

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aggiehawg
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In reply to ThunderCougarFalconBird • 12:11p, 3/21/24
AG
Quote:
Also, older class A space in NYC (and really, across the country) is absolutely getting wrecked because they can't compete with newer space on quality, trying to keep pace on amenities isn't generating enough returns, and there's just no demand. Lots of older class A buildings out there with occupancy rates below 50% and shrinking rent rolls.
Another unintended consequence of the internet age Location, location, location is not the biggest factor. It is still big due to comparables but if your business does not actually require a physical presence in NYC why go or stay there?
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fredfredunderscorefred
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In reply to Antoninus • 12:13p, 3/21/24
AG
Antoninus said:
fredfredunderscorefred said:
Add in that one of the people from the bank testified that what Trump did is standard and par for the course and they discount every rich persons SFCs.
they definitely testified that they did not rely on the financial statements. No one contests that.

But I have not seen anything to the effect that any bank representative testified that intentional misrepresentations are "standard"

for some reason, a large percentage of Trumpists have convinced themselves that the man is some sort of messianic figure. He just isn't.


I'm far from a trumpist. I wanted Desantis and even voted for him after he paused his campaign. I tend to wish Trump would go away but as I've said, not wanting the left to get away with their temper tantrum is the main reason I support Trump now.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to ThunderCougarFalconBird • 12:14p, 3/21/24
You gotta wonder how much ESG will contribute to the collapse of commercial office RE in NY and other places.

Certainly none of these 30-year old buildings are green building / green energy compliant which reduces a companies ESG score.

So it looks like we've also incentivized these public companies to abandon NYC on that basis.

Also worth noting that Google built this giant green buiiding in Austin but last I checked hasn't moved employees in because nobody gives a ***** about green building or even wants to work in a building. Same with JP Morgan in NYC where they had to demand workers show at their shiny new HQ.

We are seeing a controlled demolition of the US economy.

'Great reset' is right.
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Ag with kids
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In reply to Antoninus • 12:15p, 3/21/24
AG
Antoninus said:
fredfredunderscorefred said:
Add in that one of the people from the bank testified that what Trump did is standard and par for the course and they discount every rich persons SFCs.
they definitely testified that they did not rely on the financial statements. No one contests that.

But I have not seen anything to the effect that any bank representative testified that intentional misrepresentations are "standard"

for some reason, a large percentage of Trumpists have convinced themselves that the man is some sort of messianic figure. He just isn't.
I think Trump is an idiot. I'm not voting for him in 2024.

I also think this case was a sham and that Trump did what just about every other person in his industry does when getting loans. This case was ONLY about personal vengeance. Not about justice.

It doesn't have to be either/or with regard to all this legal stuff with Trump....
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Antoninus
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In reply to Ag with kids • 12:18p, 3/21/24
Ag with kids said:
The long detailed trial where the judge, that you already admit was in way over his head, issued summary judgement so that he was the only person deciding on the facts?
yes. The judge was way over his head on the complex financial issues.

But his ruling on the summary judgment evidence was fairly straightforward. Read the affidavits. They were clearly legally conclusory, and any first year law student would've understood that. He was correct to exclude them
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MelvinUdall
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In reply to Antoninus • 12:22p, 3/21/24
Antoninus said:
Ag with kids said:
The long detailed trial where the judge, that you already admit was in way over his head, issued summary judgement so that he was the only person deciding on the facts?
yes. The judge was way over his head on the complex financial issues.

But his ruling on the summary judgment evidence was fairly straightforward. Read the affidavits. They were clearly legally conclusory, and any first year law student would've understood that. He was correct to exclude them


The problem with this case, and we are seeing true business people that work in New York saying this case was a sham and that it will impact business that is done in NY.
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PCC_80
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In reply to fredfredunderscorefred • 12:32p, 3/21/24
AG
fredfredunderscorefred said:
Add in that one of the people from the bank testified that what Trump did is standard and par for the course and they discount every rich persons SFCs, and the AG potentially has a goldmine of potential "fraudsters" to go after. Just depends on whether they cross her and she decides to "get them" like she said she would do for Trump.
Yep, if NY actually gets away with this and makes a bunch of money from seizing Trump's assets then they will start to systematically go after other businesses. I would guess that Oil & Gas Companies and Auto Manufacturers will be the next ones to be targeted.

And half the people in this country would celebrate this being done.
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aggiehawg
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12:39p, 3/21/24
AG
Back in the 90's I had a client in the home building business, privately owned not public.I remember sitting in his office going over the take down schedule for lots in various subdivisions in which he was active. (Those take down schedules are also part of loan covenants, BTW.)

There had some asinine local business article about recent sales of his homes and how that affected his ability to borrow more. Poorly written not to mention inaccurate and he was super pissed because it implied he was not a player and one who had to beg for funding.

I remember he grabbed some papers on his desk, waved them around saying, "Like I am supposed to go to my lenders and say Hey guys! I got another one!"
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LawHall88
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12:51p, 3/21/24
AG
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Antoninus
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In reply to LawHall88 • 12:54p, 3/21/24
A competent lawyer is going to file an Abstract of Judgment in every county in which Trump or one of the other judgment creditors owns any property at all. to do otherwise would be something very close to malpractice.
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Rockdoc
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1:07p, 3/21/24
AG
Bill O'Reilly just said on the Clay and Buck radio show that Trumps lawyers were actually wanting NY to go ahead and begin proceedings to seize assets. Seems that will trigger some kind of instant appeals event, thus a stay.
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GenericAggie
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In reply to Antoninus • 2:00p, 3/21/24
AG
Antoninus said:
you really, really don't "get it," do you? You just cannot accept the possibility that Trump actually committed intentional fraud, rather than just being overly optimistic about the value of his assets.

and I am not saying that he absolutely did so.

I am saying that the allegations in the lawsuit are that he did so. The allegations are that he did something VERY different than standard practice in the industry. and after extensive discovery and a long, detailed trial, a court agreed that the allegations were accurate.

You just don't agree with the court

I think the sentiment is that the judge showed extreme bias and prejudice against someone he clearly has disdain towards, and maybe, was influenced by Albany and the AG. It's hard to not think that with how he acted in court. His smirking was evidence of that bias.

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Rockdoc
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In reply to GenericAggie • 2:03p, 3/21/24
AG
He was out in the open with his bias and he seemed to enjoy it. Power gone to his head.
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Im Gipper
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2:03p, 3/21/24
Here is the O'Reilly audio.



Appellate nerds: Doesn't Trump have to appeal through highest court in New York before going to federal court for relief?

It does not seem that a imminent stay here is likely.

I'm Gipper
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