aggiehawg said:

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Just received an alert from Forbes that Trump can't get to the 454 million point on the bond to appeal the Engeron order in the Letitia James lawsuit.

If that is accurate, we are squarely in the Pennzoil case territory, IMO.

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So trump files bankruptcy?

If I recall, Texaco (here Trump) filed su it in federal court after th state judgement but before bond requirement. Eventually USSC says to lower federal courts "stay out of the state court issues." Eventually the TxSCt allowed a reduction of punitive damages but not compensatory. Somewhere along the way Texaco filed bankruptcy and a settlement occurred having to be agreed to by bankruptcy court.


So the Pennzoil territory is trump filing bankruptcy? Or is recollection incorrect/law evolved?

Exciting day for some posters that won't be named.

BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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The amount of the judgment, plus post-judgment interest.

Here you go:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/read-trump-new-york-fraud-case-decision-fine-sanctions/

fredfredunderscorefred said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Just received an alert from Forbes that Trump can't get to the 454 million point on the bond to appeal the Engeron order in the Letitia James lawsuit.

If that is accurate, we are squarely in the Pennzoil case territory, IMO.

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So trump files bankruptcy?

If I recall, Texaco (here Trump) filed su it in federal court after th state judgement but before bond requirement. Eventually USSC says to lower federal courts "stay out of the state court issues." Eventually the TxSCt allowed a reduction of punitive damages but not compensatory. Somewhere along the way Texaco filed bankruptcy and a settlement occurred having to be agreed to by bankruptcy court.


So the Pennzoil territory is trump filing bankruptcy? Or is recollection incorrect/law evolved?

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First off, not sure the ay has Trump has structured all of his holdings is easily accessible to multiple Chapter 11 filings. (Could be wrong about that.) So that was not what I was suggesting nor recommending because I don't know if that is possible or would work in this particular case.

By being in Pennzoil territory, I was referring to the appellate bonding requirements. Although somehing that is shocking to people from the sheer size but under Pennzoil I don't see how he could get any legal respite if James opts to begin executing on the judgment while the appeal is pending. And because of that, there are procedural issues that take time to navigate to try to stop her from doing so. He would need a court order from somewhere and I don't know if that can happen or happen in time that is.

Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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By terrible use of math and logic.

On some, judge says "well IF Trump had used lower values AND the bank required a higher interest rate, that rate would he X and he would have paid Y in interest". This despite the banks saying "in every similar transaction with Uber rich people we never believe them and discount values and give the rate we think the should get". It's a weird combo of "reliance isn't an element because they didn't rely," but we will assume they relied for judgment purposes.another one was "he wouldn't have been able to purchase a building that he eventually sold, so we are taking the profits from that sale."

Antoninus said:

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Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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The amount of the judgment, plus post-judgment interest.

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I understand that. How did they CALCULATE the judgement to be $454 Million?

Ag with kids said:

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Antoninus said:

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Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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The amount of the judgment, plus post-judgment interest.

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I understand that. How did they CALCULATE the judgement to be $454 Million?

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You would think that some enterprising reporter would have put together a simple line-item by line-item summary of the judgment/damages, but I've not been able to find one. You just have to read the judgment.

welcome back from banned camp, bro. I see you've been furiously making up for lost time.

BadMoonRisin said:

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welcome back from banned camp, bro. I see you've been furiously making up for lost time.

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friend, it was not 50 or so of MY posts that got pruned over the weekend.

As for Mar A Lago, James would be better off to proceed against NY located assets.

Domesticating a foreign judgment in Florida is not the easiest of processes, nor very quick.

Ag with kids said:

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Antoninus said:

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Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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The amount of the judgment, plus post-judgment interest.

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I understand that. How did they CALCULATE the judgement to be $454 Million?

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As I understand it they took the value of the properties he used in loans, and slapped ridiculously low values that Judge weirdo and James pulled out of their asses, and applied the difference..

Suh as Mar A Largo being worth $18 million dollars which is insane to anyone in the Florida real estate business

Foreverconservative said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Antoninus said:

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Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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The amount of the judgment, plus post-judgment interest.

---

I understand that. How did they CALCULATE the judgement to be $454 Million?

---

As I understand it they took the value of the properties he used in loans, and slapped ridiculously low values that Judge weirdo and James pulled out of their asses, and applied the difference..

Suh as Mar A Largo being worth $18 million dollars which is insane to anyone in the Florida real estate business

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That is what they did to find "fraud." They did the interest rate debacle to find the judgment.

fredfredunderscorefred said:

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On some, judge says "well IF Trump had used lower values AND the bank required a higher interest rate, that rate would he X and he would have paid Y in interest". This despite the banks saying "in every similar transaction with Uber rich people we never believe them and discount values and give the rate we think the should get". It's a weird combo of "reliance isn't an element because they didn't rely," but we will assume they relied for judgment purposes.another one was "he wouldn't have been able to purchase a building that he eventually sold, so we are taking the profits from that sale."

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I agree.

Under the statute, "reliance" is CLEARLY not an element in order to pursue enforcement. Every competent lawyer in the country (starting with Turley) has explained this.

So, the "damages" associated with the misrepresentations DO appear to be questionable.]

Honestly, I expected comparatively-lower dollar figures and more-severe injunctive relief, for exactly that reason.

fredfredunderscorefred said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Antoninus said:

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Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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The amount of the judgment, plus post-judgment interest.

---

I understand that. How did they CALCULATE the judgement to be $454 Million?

---

As I understand it they took the value of the properties he used in loans, and slapped ridiculously low values that Judge weirdo and James pulled out of their asses, and applied the difference..

Suh as Mar A Largo being worth $18 million dollars which is insane to anyone in the Florida real estate business

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That is what they did to find "fraud." They did the interest rate debacle to find the judgment.

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Correct.

Antoninus said:

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fredfredunderscorefred said:

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On some, judge says "well IF Trump had used lower values AND the bank required a higher interest rate, that rate would he X and he would have paid Y in interest". This despite the banks saying "in every similar transaction with Uber rich people we never believe them and discount values and give the rate we think the should get". It's a weird combo of "reliance isn't an element because they didn't rely," but we will assume they relied for judgment purposes.another one was "he wouldn't have been able to purchase a building that he eventually sold, so we are taking the profits from that sale."

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I agree.

Under the statute, "reliance" is CLEARLY not an element in order to pursue enforcement. Every competent lawyer in the country (starting with Turley) has explained this.

So, the "damages" associated with the misrepresentations DO appear to be questionable.]

Honestly, I expected comparatively-lower dollar figures and more-severe injunctive relief, for exactly that reason.

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The dominos case suggests (states specifically) that reliance is not an "element," but "relevant". There are so many times in his opinions that he (engeron) uses reliance, both in determine whether fraud happened and obviously in calculating thr judgment, that I wouldn't be surprised if appellate courts eventually say "know what, reliance is obviously an element in fraud even under this statute because it is necessary on whether the acts create an atmosphere "conducive to fraud"" (conducive to fraud being the key requirement it seems).

smh

Quote:

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that I wouldn't be surprised if appellate courts eventually say "know what, reliance is obviously an element in fraud even under this statute because it is necessary on whether the acts create an atmosphere "conducive to fraud"" (conducive to fraud being the key requirement it seems).

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Or in the alternative, that the state statute was not enacted to be applied to situations such as this.

fredfredunderscorefred said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Antoninus said:

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Ag with kids said:

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BTW, how did they come to that $454 Million number? What calculations were used to determine it?

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The amount of the judgment, plus post-judgment interest.

---

I understand that. How did they CALCULATE the judgement to be $454 Million?

---

As I understand it they took the value of the properties he used in loans, and slapped ridiculously low values that Judge weirdo and James pulled out of their asses, and applied the difference..

Suh as Mar A Largo being worth $18 million dollars which is insane to anyone in the Florida real estate business

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That is what they did to find "fraud." They did the interest rate debacle to find the judgment.

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Okay I read the actual ruling again. Engoron found that Trump allegedly gave phony wealth claims were critical to his success, affording him lower loan interest rates and allowing him to build projects he wouldn't have otherwise been able to finish. The judge determined that those savings and windfall profits were "ill-gotten gains" and ordered him and his co-defendants (Don Jr and Eric) to cough them up to the state, with interest. So in addition to the $355 million penalty, which was the calculated profit the Trumps made, he ordered them to payback of what the judge deemed "ill-gotten gains" from his spurious financial statements, Trump is required to pay interest on that amount at an annual rate of 9%, as prescribed by New York law, so that adds up fast. James' office calculates that, to date, Trump owes an additional $98.6 million in interest, bringing his total penalty to $453.5 million. The interest will keep accruing until Trump pays.

Quote:

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$168 million, plus interest, in savings on loans he obtained using his inflated financial statements for a golf resort near Miami, a Chicago hotel and condominium tower, a Washington, D.C. hotel and a Manhattan office building. Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank's private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk.
$126.8 million, plus interest, in profit from selling the Trump International Hotel in Washington in May 2022 to a company that now operates it as a Waldorf Astoria. Trump used $170 million of the $375 million to pay off a loan on the property. Other proceeds went to his children.
$60 million, plus interest, from selling the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023.

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Engoron noted in his ruling that the buyer, Bally's Corporation, stands to pay Trump an additional $115 million if it obtains a casino license for the property. However, he did not say if he would require Trump to give up that money, too.

Trump's sons, Eric and Don Jr., must each pay a little over $4 million, plus interest, to the state for their shares of the Washington hotel sales. Weisselberg, the former Trump Organization finance chief, was ordered to pay $1 million half of the $2 million severance he's receiving.


HTH the other person that wanted a list.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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that I wouldn't be surprised if appellate courts eventually say "know what, reliance is obviously an element in fraud even under this statute because it is necessary on whether the acts create an atmosphere "conducive to fraud"" (conducive to fraud being the key requirement it seems).

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Or in the alternative, that the state statute was not enacted to be applied to situations such as this.

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But how does an appellate court REACH the question of "legislative intent," when the statute does not appear to be remotely "ambiguous?"

Quote:

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But how does an appellate court REACH the question of "legislative intent," when the statute does not appear to be remotely "ambiguous?"

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A statute does not have to be ambiguous to reach the question of whether it was misapplied in a specific case.

1) So the State claims that Trump made improper profits by getting lower interest and insurance rates by submitting fraudulent accounting statements and the undeserved profits must be given to the State taxpayers. So wouldn't Trump be able to revise his City, State and Federal income tax statements and get whopping refunds due to having made less net profits ? 2) If these incompetent knuckleheads try to seize Trump's NY properties, he could tie them up in the court system for at least a decade due to all the complicated partnerships, cooperatives, condominiums, etc,etc, etc. Good luck with that NYS nitwits !

aggiehawg said:

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Domesticating a foreign judgment in Florida is not the easiest of processes, nor very quick.

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"Hang me just as high as you please, Letitia," said Trump, "but for Lord's sake don't fling me in that briar patch!"

oysterbayAG said:

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If these incompetent knuckleheads try to seize Trump's NY properties, he could tie them up in the court system for at least a decade due to all the complicated partnerships, cooperatives, condominiums, etc,etc, etc. Good luck with that NYS nitwits !

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Very true. Doubtless, SOME properties are held in fee simple by a judgment debtor, but I would expect that MANY of his properties are held in (for example) limited partnerships, in which one or more of the judgment debtors is partnered with persons or entities who are NOT judgment debtors. It will take a good while to sort all that out. In most cases, probably by a judicially-order "partition by sale."

Of course, the "post judgment interest" ticker just keeps running while all that happens. There is no reason for the AG to get in a hurry and cut any corners.

For public interest, using that statute to punish say someone providing an essential service but have draconian terms to make them contracts of adhesion and thus void.

There is no conceivable argument that Trump somehow did a reverse contract of adhesion with his lenders and insurers simply because he was the white elephant and they wanted to bag him they had no choice like Bud Fox doing what Gordon Gekko wanted.

aggiehawg said:

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For public interest, using that statute to punish say someone providing an essential service but have draconian terms to make them contracts of adhesion and thus void.

There is no conceivable argument that Trump somehow did a reverse contract of adhesion with his lenders and insurers simply because he was the white elephant and they wanted to bag him they had no choice like Bud Fox doing what Gordon Gekko wanted.

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The whole thing is absurd. Trump didn't even create an atmosphere conducive to fraud. This from the dominos case.

""Under Executive Law [] 63(12), the test for fraud is whether an act tends to deceive or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud" ***There is also support for the proposition that the Attorney General need not prove materiality and that causation is relevant only in determining damages, not liability***That said, evidence regarding falsity, materiality, reliance and causation plainly is relevant to determining whether the Attorney General has established that the challenged conduct has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud.***In determining whether certain conduct was deceptive, surely it is relevant whether members of the target audience - several of whom were called as witnesses at trial by the Attorney General - were actually deceived. Similarly, if the evidence showed that the alleged false statements had no real-world impact (that is, no reliance or causation), that would speak to the question of whether the challenged conduct was unlawfully deceptive or fraudulent." " (see, e.g., State v Rachmani Corp., 71 NY2d 718, 726 [1988] [addressing materiality of omission]; Tempur-Pedic, 30 Misc 3d at 993 [dismissing Executive Law claim because "[t]he OAG has submitted no evidence to show that retailers were misled or deceived in any way" by the respondent's allegedly fraudulent acts]; Exxon Mobil, 2019 WL 6795771, at *28 [finding no violation of the Executive Law because, among other things, the OAG "produced no testimony ... from any investor who claimed to have been misled by any disclosure"])."

This thing should get tossed on appeal completely. Not sure whether the judges in higher courts are as ******ed as engeron.

Quote:

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This thing should get tossed on appeal completely. Not sure whether the judges in higher courts are as ******ed as engeron.

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In NY state? I wouldn't be so sure.

Did Letitia consider the possibility that Donald Trump may well have every single asset he owns fully topped up?

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Did Letitia consider the possibility that Donald Trump may well have every single asset he owns fully topped up?

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Well, he CLAIMS a net worth in excess of a billion dollars.

For the non-accountants, that means that he claims the value of his assets exceeds his liabilities by more than a billion dollars.

Foreverconservative said:

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* * *

Okay I read the actual ruling again. Engoron found that Trump allegedly gave phony wealth claims were critical to his success, affording him lower loan interest rates and allowing him to build projects he wouldn't have otherwise been able to finish. The judge determined that those savings and windfall profits were "ill-gotten gains" and ordered him and his co-defendants (Don Jr and Eric) to cough them up to the state, with interest. So in addition to the $355 million penalty, which was the calculated profit the Trumps made, he ordered them to payback of what the judge deemed "ill-gotten gains" from his spurious financial statements, Trump is required to pay interest on that amount at an annual rate of 9%, as prescribed by New York law, so that adds up fast. James' office calculates that, to date, Trump owes an additional $98.6 million in interest, bringing his total penalty to $453.5 million. The interest will keep accruing until Trump pays.

* * *

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Didn't every bank testify this didn't happen?

No net worth claim makes any difference. The rubber meets the road when Leticia seizes and sells a specific asset subject to the judgment. She could go through this exercise and end up with a dry hole. As pointed out above, execution of judgements isn't for the faint of heart. There be dragons there.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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No net worth claim makes any difference. The rubber meets the road when Leticia seizes and sells a specific asset subject to the judgment. She could go through this exercise and end up with a dry hole. As pointed out above, execution of judgements isn't for the faint of heart. There be dragons there.

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You DO (I hope) realize that the AG has had access to his financial statements for YEARS and thus knows what assets are heavily leveraged ... and what assets are not, right?

VegasAg86 said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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* * *

Okay I read the actual ruling again. Engoron found that Trump allegedly gave phony wealth claims were critical to his success, affording him lower loan interest rates and allowing him to build projects he wouldn't have otherwise been able to finish. The judge determined that those savings and windfall profits were "ill-gotten gains" and ordered him and his co-defendants (Don Jr and Eric) to cough them up to the state, with interest. So in addition to the $355 million penalty, which was the calculated profit the Trumps made, he ordered them to payback of what the judge deemed "ill-gotten gains" from his spurious financial statements, Trump is required to pay interest on that amount at an annual rate of 9%, as prescribed by New York law, so that adds up fast. James' office calculates that, to date, Trump owes an additional $98.6 million in interest, bringing his total penalty to $453.5 million. The interest will keep accruing until Trump pays.

* * *

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Didn't every bank testify this didn't happen?

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Yes but this judge is a complete fruit loop so facts in evidence and sworn testimony means nothing.

Sure. We'll all be waiting with baited breath to see what she does. God willing she won't be able to resist grabbing a hold that tar baby in Florida.