I've only ever worked in small lean businesses where everyone had to pull their weight, for the most part. I will admit at one time in my career we did a lot of work for a large global corporation and there was a ton of waste and inefficiency, but largely because of customer requirements and how the customer worked.

I own a small company and if my employees don't work, they won't be here long. There is not enough margin for it.

Reminds me of a time where I allowed my office manager to hire an assistant. The hire seemed very polished, a 45ish year old lady that dressed professionally and seemed to be working/busy every time I walked by.

She came into my office wanting to establish her PTO as it was not defined when hired. I told her I would get back to her.

The office manager told me that she basically had not learned anything in the first week and was useless. She just shuffled papers around the desk all day and acted busy.

I said you hired her and if you don't want her, get rid of her. She fired her that Friday afternoon. She told the office manager to give me an FU when she was leaving.

Andrew Dufresne said:

---

Personally? I think it's lowwww.

Obviously this is anecdotal, but my 20 year time in the workforce has shown me that most people are either lazy or incompetent, or both.

Typically, in my experience it's just been a few Firebrands that backpack the rest of the team across the finish line.

Do we have a bunch of bubble fake jobs in this country?

---

Projection?

Interesting username.

not a single one on welfare

Self employed and 100% commission people. That's all.

Quote:

---

I can't say if the 80/20 rule is applicable for her group (30 ish people). There a few really hard workers like her, but most just do 40-50 hours in her opinion.

---

I dont think there is anything wrong with 40-50 hours. If that's what you're paying me for...or Im paying you for, so be it. Thing is, some people can get 80 hours worth of work done in 35. Some get 35 hours worth in 80.

One of my first jobs, this used to annoy the ever-livin out of me. The managers were so happy when people came in on the weekend, or worked late. The LOVED it, and frequently mentioned it. But they failed to recognize that the people working overtime were the ones who were super inefficient, and struggled to get their work done as quick as others. It made me want to work somewhere else, where the leaders recognized hard work and efficiency, and didnt reward the opposite.

AgGrad99 said:

---

Quote:

---

I can't say if the 80/20 rule is applicable for her group (30 ish people). There a few really hard workers like her, but most just do 40-50 hours in her opinion.

---

I dont think there is anything wrong with 40-50 hours. If that's what you're paying me for...or Im paying you for, so be it. Thing is, some people can get 80 hours worth of work done in 35. Some get 35 hours worth in 80.

One of my first jobs, this used to annoy the ever-livin out of me. The managers were so happy when people came in on the weekend, or worked late. The LOVED it, and frequently mentioned it. But they failed to recognize that the people working overtime were the ones who were super inefficient, and struggled to get their work done as quick as others. It made me want to work somewhere else, where the leaders recognized hard work and efficiency, and didnt reward the opposite.

---

I see this argument a bunch and I used to agree with it. But I find it mostly irrelevant unless your job requires you to actually be doing something every one of those hours.

The fallacy is from the oft undetermined what X number of hours of work looks like or even means. So a person who delivers 60 hours of work in 40, are they really 50% more efficient / productive? Or should the baseline be what they are delivering and the ones meeting expectations are truly on 67% productive?

I get what you are saying regarding managers who watch the clock and mark down the time of their employees comings and goings.

But efficiency and productivity in the workplace are very subjective and very fluid things. I think it can be just as important to gauge the response and attitude when you assign additional tasks, challenge someone on a deadline, or ask someone to work extra / weekends. etc. That in particular is where I see a lot of the responses by younger folks / millennials and such about the WFH ability, work / life balance where they response that something is not in their job description, they do not work weekends or OT, and they want 5-6 weeks of PTO.

Regardless of how productive and talented you may be, a bad attitude to getting the job done is a huge indicator of your value and worth to a company.

In my opinion of course.

Quote:

---

I see this argument a bunch and I used to agree with it. But I find it mostly irrelevant unless your job requires you to actually be doing something every one of those hours.

---

I hear what you're saying but I'm not so much analyzing hourly production, as much as I am making a point about efficiency.

Some employees can get a lot more done than others, in the same amount of time. Efficiency should be the metric, rather than time. If you get the job I pay you for, done this week...well done.

That said, I am in manufacturing, and do literally see how much more per hour some employees are able to produce than others....which is why we've gone more to a hybrid contract-labor model. You work harder and better, you get paid more. You dont, you dont. Some of my employees are making a lot more now.

All that to say, when I see people bragging about working 60 hours a week, I am always curious, and wonder if they're just inefficient.

AgGrad99 said:

---

Quote:

---

I see this argument a bunch and I used to agree with it. But I find it mostly irrelevant unless your job requires you to actually be doing something every one of those hours.

---

I hear what you're saying but I'm not so much analyzing hourly production, as much as I am making a point about efficiency.

Some employees can get a lot more done than others, in the same amount of time. Efficiency should be the metric, rather than time. If you get the job I pay you for, done this week...well done.

That said, I am in manufacturing, and do literally see how much more per hour some employees are able to produce than others....which is why we've gone more to a hybrid contract-labor model. You work harder and better, you get paid more. You dont, you dont. Some of my employees are making a lot more now.

All that to say, when I see people bragging about working 60 hours a week, I am always curious, and wonder if they're just inefficient.

---

I was going to caveat my post with manufacturing does offer a much clearer path to measure efficiency.

We build houses and are graded by our overlords with cycle time being a huge metric. Since we cannot make more hours in a day and more days in a week, then efficiency becomes uber critical.

I consider myself to be a pretty dang efficient "worker", but if I am truly putting in 60+ hours I am exhausted and not doing anything else much during that time. A few years ago I was working about 80+ hours per week and even though I worked from the house, I ate and slept in my home office during those 90 days or so and it nearly killed me healthwise.

To your point, people bragging about constantly working over 60+ hours and saying there are efficient are either lying or are about to burn the f out.

Yep. I've been there...and still have to put in more time than I'd like fairly often, and can relate to your experience.

I personally think most are lying. However, there are some that spend that amount of time at the office but socialize 30 hours and work 30. The ones putting in the work at that level dont have time to brag. They are producing results.

Small business owners are some of the most egregiously out of touch people on the planet. They expect everybody to work as hard as them, as if we had some controlling interest in the business itself.

I'll also add this....

I've told my boys, sometimes you have to 'play the game'. If a boss loves people who put in more time, do it.

Worry about changing things when you're the boss.

or just get a better job, job hopping has proven to increase you salary vs staying at current job and asking for a raise

Smith said:

---

Small business owners are some of the most egregiously out of touch people on the planet. They expect everybody to work as hard as them, as if we had some controlling interest in the business itself.

---

Excellent first post.

Most small business owners do NOT expect everyone to work as hard as them.

Source: I have started and own several small businesses.

According to the semiconductor industry it was 95%, because I had to fire the bottom 5% of my techs each year back in the day.

I'd say about 69% keep their head down and take care of business.

You're the minority

There is a known term for this and these employees are called 'overhead'. Perilous life for the worthless.

Smith said:

---

or just get a better job, job hopping has proven to increase you salary vs staying at current job and asking for a raise

---

Sure.

But job hopping doesnt look great on a resume, early in your career.

Sometimes (most times), you need to put in your dues, in order to learn. Once you're valuable...look for better opportunities.

Smith said:

---

Small business owners are some of the most egregiously out of touch people on the planet. They expect everybody to work as hard as them, as if we had some controlling interest in the business itself.

---

This post makes me chuckle a little. I used to feel this way.

I dont expect people to work as hard as me. But I do expect people to work as hard, and it shouldnt require ownership in the company (they didnt help build), for that to happen. That's what you're paid for.

The employees didnt take on debt, risk, etc etc in order to create their job. The owner did though.

And the reason they're the owner, is because they work as hard as they do.

Every small business is different, just like large corporations. Some are more demanding than others. That's ok, just make sure you're compensated fairly, for the work you're expected to do.

Maybe not, but I bet over time, you might have a different perspective.

I disagree, if the owner wants to make building his company his entire personality and life go ahead. But dont expect me to care, you have me between 8am-4pm. After that its my time, you dont own me or my life.

Smith said:

---

I disagree, if the owner wants to make building his company his entire personality and life go ahead. But dont expect me to care, you have me between 8am-4pm. After that its my time, you dont own me or my life.

---

You're fired.

Those will be the words you want to prepare yourself to hear anytime you make that obnoxious, ridiculous demand of any employer, small medium or large.

Going to assume you have either a government job or live off the welfare system (or soon will).

Incorrect,

Im too good at my job, therefore irreplaceable. Because of that I have certain demands that I can make. Nice try boomer.

Your generations mentality is thankfully dying off in a mass casualty rate

I'm not sure how you're defining "earn" but according to Price, the square root of the number of workers are doing half the work, and the rest the other half.

According to Pareto, 20% of workers are doing 80% of the work.

This is not new, nor will it go away.

My wife's ex is a CIO at his 5th or 6th Fortune 500 company and he has always said that 20% of the people in any organization do all the work. The hard part for senior management is to identify who those 20% are.

Elon appears to have succeeded at identifying them at Twitter. My experience in government contracting is that it's basically the same ratio.

Now in smaller businesses, everyone carries their own weight or the business fails. My wife owns a small business so she doesn't see a dime if she doesn't bring it in herself.

Its called adult day care for a reason

Smith said:

---

Incorrect,

Im too good at my job, therefore irreplaceable. Because of that I have certain demands that I can make. Nice try boomer.

Your generations mentality is thankfully dying off in a mass casualty rate

---

Astounding arrogance

fka ftc said:

---

Smith said:

---

Small business owners are some of the most egregiously out of touch people on the planet. They expect everybody to work as hard as them, as if we had some controlling interest in the business itself.

---

Excellent first post.

Most small business owners do NOT expect everyone to work as hard as them.

Source: I have started and own several small businesses.

---

Agreed. I don't expect anyone in or around my company without an interest to be remotely close to working as hard. They do what is asked of them and they get paid for it. I don't expect more or less. Business owners are well aware of who works for the business and who works for the paycheck. Why is that bothersome?