Go get a job somewhere else where they can't use the full force of the federal government to violate the American people's God given rights. They've had time to correct their abuses of power and have done absolutely nothing. They're a political organization maybe they can go work at a think tank.

RogerFurlong said:

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Go get a job somewhere else where they can't use the full force of the federal government to violate the American people's God given rights. They've had time to correct their abuses of power and have done absolutely nothing. They're a political organization maybe they can go work at a think tank.

---

Yep……every one of them……all 35,000 of them………all corrupt and working for the democrats ……….

What do you propose we do with the millions of man hours of intelligence and information the current t (soon to be fired) employees possess? On yeah, "Get a job somewhere else!" I'm sure there are employers available.

Im sure all the documents on the Catholics and parents at school board meetings can be thrown away. If the 35,000 are so honorable I'm sure they can find work useful work elsewhere. Unless this is another jobs program for the woke.

deddog said:

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nortex97 said:

---

More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

---

I still believe there are good FBI folks. A large number. Especially at the lower levels

There is NO ONE at the ATF that isn't an anti-American *******.

---

It is the upper echelons that "select" the lower echelon officers and corrupt individuals will NEVER select anyone that is not corrupt.

Also, these individuals take an oath to defend the Constitution, which they violate everyday.

Your stretch just snapped.

B-1 83 said:

---

Your stretch just snapped.

---

My stretch snapped? Ok I guess.

American Hardwood said:

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I don't get the fear mongering over full-auto. Based on my experience rapid firing a semi-auto, I can't imagine emptying a mag at full auto would be very effective for much criminal activity. After the first round or two, you are going to be way off target with the recoil.

A semi-auto would be much more effective in the typical active shooter scenario. A guy trotting around with a full-auto is going to spend more time reloading than anything else, and his effective shot placement is going to be significantly less than a semi-auto guy. Stuff like glock switches are just gimmicks for dudes to show off.

---

Because it's scary to people (voters) who don't know guns, and whose main understanding comes from Hollywood, where Rambo or John Wick can spray full auto and hit everything they want to.

The only time I've seen a "full auto" pistol in real life was once at a 3-gun match when the sear broke on a guy's M&P. I don't think even his first round hit the target. He fired maybe 5-6 rounds before his brain could process what was happening and get his finger off the trigger.

For the criminal types, something like the Glock Switch is more about intimidation factor than anything else (and their marksmanship is generally damn poor even when they're firing singles.)

And that article was incorrect on one other point: possession of an unregistered machine gun is illegal in Texas (TPC 46.05) It's a 3rd degree felony, punishable by 2-10 years.

B-1 83 said:

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Quote:

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Nope, I don't need to.

---

Wow. Just wow.

No doubt those guys stopping the sex trafficking did so while kicking and screaming that they wanted to investigate Trump instead. But hey, they should have just resigned because a chunk of their organization is not dedicated to the mission, and someone else will step in and arrest these monsters. That's some real dedication right there.

---

When they release Epstein's list, and when those rank and file good guys you love so much demand better of their superiors, then I might change my mind.

Until then...they are no different than the "ordinary men" that "were just following orders" in the SS in the late 1930's and 1940's at various camps in Germany and Poland.

Sorry amigo, but those are the facts. If a chunk of your organization is outright violating every law possible, and you just turn your head - you are part of the problem and equally to blame because, especially with LEO's, they are obligated to uphold the law.

BluHorseShu said:

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schmellba99 said:

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B-1 83 said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

---

That agent may have been the lead in this investigation, but you can never be too sure. Shun and damn them all……

How do they find time for this?

Hint: They do lots of good stuff, and the average agent in the field has zero to do with the Washington DC and leadership crapshow

---

I used to think that. I no longer do.

What good stuff do they do? And the average agent still follows orders, even when they know those orders are against the Constitution. Soooooo.......fuggem. Fuggem all.

---

Amazing how many here have a detailed understanding of everything these orgs do everywhere all the time. I guess I didn't realize that every one in those orgs is knowingly in on the conspiracy and realizes everything they do is against the constitution.
I was worried people were just repeating what other posters usually say based on a few incidents that happened to not go the way they wanted.
Can you imagine the love for the FBI if they never investigated anything related to Trump and only went after Hillary?
But I'm sure when Trump is elected he'll fire all of them (since all are complicit) or just disband these orgs in their entirety. I mean, he's not going to go against the perceptions of his most ardent supporters. Maybe he'll even hang them for treason. Wouldn't that give some folks some satisfaction....though it would likely be the end of our Republic.

---

I give zero F's about this, and you can quit tryign to hang your hat on it.

The FBI, ATF and most other alphabet organizations are unconstitutional organizations. Period. Full stop. But especially with the FBI and the ATF, they do not operate in the interest of the citizens of the US. In fact, a very good and strong argument can be made they they openly operat against the citizens of the US based on their actions, in actions or desire to circumvent the legislative and constitutional process.

So yea...disband them. Yesterday. We would all be far, far better off.

B-1 83 said:

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AGinHI said:

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The dismissiveness of unparalleled corruption is befitting of people and the times.

And knee-jerk reaction.

Yeah, people are having a knee-jerk reaction to learning, in specific detail, that a federal law enforcement agency colluded to subvert a Presidential election.

Just bad apples.

Like Derek Chauvin

Oops.

---

Yep………..every one of them……..top to bottom…….no matter what their expertise….no matter what division….no matter where they are located……no matter their position……. Let's throw away, not tens of thousands of hours of expertise in organized crime, international criminal organizations, child/drug trafficking, …….but litterally millions of hours of expertise and cooperation because "Muh…….there are crooked people within". Don't shut down an entire agency Weed them out - don't throw away the baby with the bathwater.

---

The problem is, how do you figure out which ones are the good ones and which ones are the bad ones? It's like finding the 'good' Palestinians in a sea of Hamas.

B-1 83 said:

---

AGinHI said:

---

The dismissiveness of unparalleled corruption is befitting of people and the times.

And knee-jerk reaction.

Yeah, people are having a knee-jerk reaction to learning, in specific detail, that a federal law enforcement agency colluded to subvert a Presidential election.

Just bad apples.

Like Derek Chauvin

Oops.

---

Yep………..every one of them……..top to bottom…….no matter what their expertise….no matter what division….no matter where they are located……no matter their position……. Let's throw away, not tens of thousands of hours of expertise in organized crime, international criminal organizations, child/drug trafficking, …….but litterally millions of hours of expertise and cooperation because "Muh…….there are crooked people within". Don't shut down an entire agency Weed them out - don't throw away the baby with the bathwater.

---

This is what I don't understand. The ideal would be agents that can separate their political biases from their jobs. But I'm curious that, if the answer is to burn the whole thing down and replace it with only conservatives, that we're just trading one bias for another. There should not be bias, or minimal at most, in the performance of their jobs. They should follow the law, period.

I think all of these extreme ideas don't take into account the repercussions of such radical measures. And anyone who claims they've thought of those and have solutions, are only theorizing since its never been done.

As you said, weed out the bad apples. I'm sure there are some good agents who are doing the right thing. Likely even some good Ags in there.

They're doing exactly what the people in power want them to do. They're doing exactly what the Democrat base want them to do. And I would argue they're doing exactly what you want them to do considering you're against an actual structural change that could force the issue regarding the constant and blatant constitutional abuses by these organizations.

schmellba99 said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

B-1 83 said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

---

That agent may have been the lead in this investigation, but you can never be too sure. Shun and damn them all……

How do they find time for this?

Hint: They do lots of good stuff, and the average agent in the field has zero to do with the Washington DC and leadership crapshow

---

I used to think that. I no longer do.

What good stuff do they do? And the average agent still follows orders, even when they know those orders are against the Constitution. Soooooo.......fuggem. Fuggem all.

---

Amazing how many here have a detailed understanding of everything these orgs do everywhere all the time. I guess I didn't realize that every one in those orgs is knowingly in on the conspiracy and realizes everything they do is against the constitution.
I was worried people were just repeating what other posters usually say based on a few incidents that happened to not go the way they wanted.
Can you imagine the love for the FBI if they never investigated anything related to Trump and only went after Hillary?
But I'm sure when Trump is elected he'll fire all of them (since all are complicit) or just disband these orgs in their entirety. I mean, he's not going to go against the perceptions of his most ardent supporters. Maybe he'll even hang them for treason. Wouldn't that give some folks some satisfaction....though it would likely be the end of our Republic.

---

I give zero F's about this, and you can quit tryign to hang your hat on it.

The FBI, ATF and most other alphabet organizations are unconstitutional organizations. Period. Full stop. But especially with the FBI and the ATF, they do not operate in the interest of the citizens of the US. In fact, a very good and strong argument can be made they they openly operat against the citizens of the US based on their actions, in actions or desire to circumvent the legislative and constitutional process.

So yea...disband them. Yesterday. We would all be far, far better off.

---

Okay. So do you have a plan to replace them at all? I mean do you really understand every facet that the FBI works in to keep Americans safe domestically? No one is disagreeing that there are some bad apples. But the chaos that would ensue if we just shut it down would be insane. The level each state relies on the expertise and capability of the FBI is immense. I guess we could just go to having state investigation agencies that only deal with their own state and don't collaborate cohesively with other states for crimes.

Who's going to investigate if your child was kidnapped and taken out of state? And what resources do they have at their disposal. If that happened today, you'd be fine with the FBI no longer existing? Or would you want any and every significant resource at your disposal?

Fenrir said:

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They're doing exactly what the people in power want them to do. They're doing exactly what the Democrat base want them to do. And I would argue they're doing exactly what you want them to do considering you're against an actual structural change that could force the issue regarding the constant and blatant constitutional abuses by these organizations.

---

I'm not against weeding out the folks, there are obviously bad actors. What I am against is completely ridding our country of such a significant law enforcement agency with no plan to replace it at that level.

Would we be having this conversation if they were doing predominately what Republicans want them to do at the perceived detriment of the Democrats?

These agencies should operate based on the law not political bias. So as was mentioned before, if you throw out the baby with the bath water....you better be prepared to address the immense weakness this country would face from criminals.

Trump got rid of Sessions and Comey because they wanted to follow the law and not do his bidding. Trump had asked Comey to pledge his loyalty to him. Comey said as long as it didn't break the law.

We don't need people who put partisanship before the constitution. So we get rid of those who are and keep those that aren't.

I'm all for ridding the federal government of people that do not adhere to laws and the constitution. I'm just certain that you and the vast majority of people in this country, especially those in power, don't actually want to limit those abuses of power and instead just want to use the weapon for your own uses.

I don't believe it is possible to have a federal entity like the FBI without it also being a bludgeon against political enemies. There simply is no oversight and the political persuasion in power that I keep being told is only growing stronger and has no intention of relinquishing their tool.

schmellba99 said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

B-1 83 said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

---

That agent may have been the lead in this investigation, but you can never be too sure. Shun and damn them all……

How do they find time for this?

Hint: They do lots of good stuff, and the average agent in the field has zero to do with the Washington DC and leadership crapshow

---

I used to think that. I no longer do.

What good stuff do they do? And the average agent still follows orders, even when they know those orders are against the Constitution. Soooooo.......fuggem. Fuggem all.

---

Amazing how many here have a detailed understanding of everything these orgs do everywhere all the time. I guess I didn't realize that every one in those orgs is knowingly in on the conspiracy and realizes everything they do is against the constitution.
I was worried people were just repeating what other posters usually say based on a few incidents that happened to not go the way they wanted.
Can you imagine the love for the FBI if they never investigated anything related to Trump and only went after Hillary?
But I'm sure when Trump is elected he'll fire all of them (since all are complicit) or just disband these orgs in their entirety. I mean, he's not going to go against the perceptions of his most ardent supporters. Maybe he'll even hang them for treason. Wouldn't that give some folks some satisfaction....though it would likely be the end of our Republic.

---

I give zero F's about this, and you can quit tryign to hang your hat on it.

The FBI, ATF and most other alphabet organizations are unconstitutional organizations. Period. Full stop. But especially with the FBI and the ATF, they do not operate in the interest of the citizens of the US. In fact, a very good and strong argument can be made they they openly operat against the citizens of the US based on their actions, in actions or desire to circumvent the legislative and constitutional process.

So yea...disband them. Yesterday. We would all be far, far better off.

---

Oh really? You'll have to explain that one. The 'ol "They're not in the Constitution" argument is a hollow one due to Article 2 Section 2, the existence of such agencies under Cabinet departments for over two centuries, and the SCOTUS rulings. To top it off, nobody ever answers the question of just what Cabinet positions are specifically mentioned in the Constitution.

Shoelace and keyring.

The FBI was a problem when power hungry Hoover was in charge and started a culture of ignoring rights.

Purvis was a stooge with ambition like most grunts still are.

Quote:

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This is what I don't understand. The ideal would be agents that can separate their political biases from their jobs. But I'm curious that, if the answer is to burn the whole thing down and replace it with only conservatives, that we're just trading one bias for another. There should not be bias, or minimal at most, in the performance of their jobs. They should follow the law, period.

---

The conservative bias would be for respect of the law and order and a sense of moral righteousness. That is part of the conservative ideology.

The law is demonstrably 'legally fluid' for the left and they care not a whit about rights or justice. The ends justify the means and all that.

So yes, cleaning house and replacing them with a conservative bias would be considerably better than allowing parts of the cancer to remain.

Fenrir said:

---

I'm all for ridding the federal government of people that do not adhere to laws and the constitution. I'm just certain that you and the vast majority of people in this country, especially those in power, don't actually want to limit those abuses of power and instead just want to use the weapon for your own uses.

I don't believe it is possible to have a federal entity like the FBI without it also being a bludgeon against political enemies. There simply is no oversight and the political persuasion in power that I keep being told is only growing stronger and has no intention of relinquishing their tool.

---

I think to say that I (someone you know nothing about) and the vast majority of Americans don't want to limit those who abuse power is just emotional hyperbole. Even Trump tried to use the FBI for personal reasons.

The common factor in any organization be it local, state, or federal is people. Organizations aren't corrupt, people are. Take any government agency out of commission and you'll have to rely on another government to provide that service. Just like the angst pro or against Paxton and other in Texas and charges of corruption, all we can do is be vigilant against the bad apples.

BluHorseShu said:

---

Fenrir said:

---

I'm all for ridding the federal government of people that do not adhere to laws and the constitution. I'm just certain that you and the vast majority of people in this country, especially those in power, don't actually want to limit those abuses of power and instead just want to use the weapon for your own uses.

I don't believe it is possible to have a federal entity like the FBI without it also being a bludgeon against political enemies. There simply is no oversight and the political persuasion in power that I keep being told is only growing stronger and has no intention of relinquishing their tool.

---

I think to say that I (someone you know nothing about) and the vast majority of Americans don't want to limit those who abuse power is just emotional hyperbole. Even Trump tried to use the FBI for personal reasons.

The common factor in any organization be it local, state, or federal is people. Organizations aren't corrupt, people are. Take any government agency out of commission and you'll have to rely on another government to provide that service. Just like the angst pro or against Paxton and other in Texas and charges of corruption, all we can do is be vigilant against the bad apples.

---

How is it emotional hyperbole? It's a complete nonfactor on the political landscape. The vast majority of people don't care that the FBI has abused and eroded the constitutional rights of Americans for decades. It's basically Stockholm Syndrome at this point. That Trump tried to use it is not counter to my argument.

I don't disagree with you that the people that make up the organization are corrupt. That's entirely my point. I don't think this organization is salvageable because there is no meaningful oversight and no punishment when they break laws or go against the constitution. There is nothing but an "aw shucks, we won't do it again..." from them. Our entire federal government is simply an organization whose entire modern structure ensures that corruption and abuses will continue to happen at increasing rates. You can't keep giving more and more people without any real oversight and not expect more and more abuses to happen. That's what happens when a massive federal government continues to expand. It's a cancer.

American Hardwood said:

---

Quote:

---

This is what I don't understand. The ideal would be agents that can separate their political biases from their jobs. But I'm curious that, if the answer is to burn the whole thing down and replace it with only conservatives, that we're just trading one bias for another. There should not be bias, or minimal at most, in the performance of their jobs. They should follow the law, period.

---

The conservative bias would be for respect of the law and order and a sense of moral righteousness. That is part of the conservative ideology.

The law is demonstrably 'legally fluid' for the left and they care not a whit about rights or justice. The ends justify the means and all that.

So yes, cleaning house and replacing them with a conservative bias would be considerably better than allowing parts of the cancer to remain.

---

I see. So conservatives are immune to using their bias to make unfair decisions or engage in corruption? I'm not asking for a comparison against democrats, I'm talking about people. I can tell you til I'm blue in the face that 'ideally' I'd rather have conservatives leading these orgs...but at the end of the day, they are people. And even people with the best intentions are not immune to corruption.

I can promise you that there are many conservatives that don't respect the law (See sovereign citizens, Ammon Bundy, etc etc). There will always be idiots on both sides that don't believe the law applies to them. There are people on both sides that lack any morality/righteousness.

I would argue that conceptually conservatives do respect law and order, and strive to be morally righteous but that doesn't mean all democrats do not.

Fenrir said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

Fenrir said:

---

I'm all for ridding the federal government of people that do not adhere to laws and the constitution. I'm just certain that you and the vast majority of people in this country, especially those in power, don't actually want to limit those abuses of power and instead just want to use the weapon for your own uses.

I don't believe it is possible to have a federal entity like the FBI without it also being a bludgeon against political enemies. There simply is no oversight and the political persuasion in power that I keep being told is only growing stronger and has no intention of relinquishing their tool.

---

I think to say that I (someone you know nothing about) and the vast majority of Americans don't want to limit those who abuse power is just emotional hyperbole. Even Trump tried to use the FBI for personal reasons.

The common factor in any organization be it local, state, or federal is people. Organizations aren't corrupt, people are. Take any government agency out of commission and you'll have to rely on another government to provide that service. Just like the angst pro or against Paxton and other in Texas and charges of corruption, all we can do is be vigilant against the bad apples.

---

How is it emotional hyperbole? It's a complete nonfactor on the political landscape. The vast majority of people don't care that the FBI has abused and eroded the constitutional rights of Americans for decades. It's basically Stockholm Syndrome at this point. That Trump tried to use it is not counter to my argument.

I don't disagree with you that the people that make up the organization are corrupt. That's entirely my point. I don't think this organization is salvageable because there is no meaningful oversight and no punishment when they break laws or go against the constitution. There is nothing but an "aw shucks, we won't do it again..." from them. Our entire federal government is simply an organization whose entire modern structure ensures that corruption and abuses will continue to happen at increasing rates. You can't keep giving more and more people without any real oversight and not expect more and more abuses to happen. That's what happens when a massive federal government continues to expand. It's a cancer.

---

So why not get rid of all government? Once you get a group of people together to make a decision, you have politics....even if initially they all generally agree on some standards. At some point disagreements will arise and some will be happy with the results and some not. And when that happens enough, people will start to divide and come up with reasons why their decisions should be applied.
I mean, its the history of the world. We keep trying to make things better....but burning it all down does the opposite because it assumes everything about it was bad.

pretty much exactly what I thought he would look like

BluHorseShu said:

---

Fenrir said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

Fenrir said:

---

I'm all for ridding the federal government of people that do not adhere to laws and the constitution. I'm just certain that you and the vast majority of people in this country, especially those in power, don't actually want to limit those abuses of power and instead just want to use the weapon for your own uses.

I don't believe it is possible to have a federal entity like the FBI without it also being a bludgeon against political enemies. There simply is no oversight and the political persuasion in power that I keep being told is only growing stronger and has no intention of relinquishing their tool.

---

I think to say that I (someone you know nothing about) and the vast majority of Americans don't want to limit those who abuse power is just emotional hyperbole. Even Trump tried to use the FBI for personal reasons.

The common factor in any organization be it local, state, or federal is people. Organizations aren't corrupt, people are. Take any government agency out of commission and you'll have to rely on another government to provide that service. Just like the angst pro or against Paxton and other in Texas and charges of corruption, all we can do is be vigilant against the bad apples.

---

How is it emotional hyperbole? It's a complete nonfactor on the political landscape. The vast majority of people don't care that the FBI has abused and eroded the constitutional rights of Americans for decades. It's basically Stockholm Syndrome at this point. That Trump tried to use it is not counter to my argument.

I don't disagree with you that the people that make up the organization are corrupt. That's entirely my point. I don't think this organization is salvageable because there is no meaningful oversight and no punishment when they break laws or go against the constitution. There is nothing but an "aw shucks, we won't do it again..." from them. Our entire federal government is simply an organization whose entire modern structure ensures that corruption and abuses will continue to happen at increasing rates. You can't keep giving more and more people without any real oversight and not expect more and more abuses to happen. That's what happens when a massive federal government continues to expand. It's a cancer.

---

So why not get rid of all government? Once you get a group of people together to make a decision, you have politics....even if initially they all generally agree on some standards. At some point disagreements will arise and some will be happy with the results and some not. And when that happens enough, people will start to divide and come up with reasons why their decisions should be applied.
I mean, its the history of the world. We keep trying to make things better....but burning it all down does the opposite because it assumes everything about it was bad.

---

Our federal government absolutely should be immensely smaller. It was never intended to be the bloated bureaucratic **** hole that it is now. You are never going to stop the federal government from abusing the constitution without also limiting it considerably (much less the constant expansion we've had for decades and decades).

schmellba99 said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

B-1 83 said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

---

That agent may have been the lead in this investigation, but you can never be too sure. Shun and damn them all……

How do they find time for this?

Hint: They do lots of good stuff, and the average agent in the field has zero to do with the Washington DC and leadership crapshow

---

I used to think that. I no longer do.

What good stuff do they do? And the average agent still follows orders, even when they know those orders are against the Constitution. Soooooo.......fuggem. Fuggem all.

---

Amazing how many here have a detailed understanding of everything these orgs do everywhere all the time. I guess I didn't realize that every one in those orgs is knowingly in on the conspiracy and realizes everything they do is against the constitution.
I was worried people were just repeating what other posters usually say based on a few incidents that happened to not go the way they wanted.
Can you imagine the love for the FBI if they never investigated anything related to Trump and only went after Hillary?
But I'm sure when Trump is elected he'll fire all of them (since all are complicit) or just disband these orgs in their entirety. I mean, he's not going to go against the perceptions of his most ardent supporters. Maybe he'll even hang them for treason. Wouldn't that give some folks some satisfaction....though it would likely be the end of our Republic.

---

I give zero F's about this, and you can quit tryign to hang your hat on it.

The FBI, ATF and most other alphabet organizations are unconstitutional organizations. Period. Full stop. But especially with the FBI and the ATF, they do not operate in the interest of the citizens of the US. In fact, a very good and strong argument can be made they they openly operat against the citizens of the US based on their actions, in actions or desire to circumvent the legislative and constitutional process.

So yea...disband them. Yesterday. We would all be far, far better off.

---

I understand this is the point of view of a number of people. They think "I don't care what arguments you offer for consideration, I want it all burned down because I believe the entire government is against a certain group of us citizens and I do not see any good trying to salvage any of it". In short, they give zero F's. But there are alot of conservatives who give many F's and don't want to see it all burn down because they know that is not the solution to better lives for Americans.
But then, at least to date, the only thing I can tangibly say the government has done against me is tax the crap out of me. But that's both Federal, state and local governments. I guess we could disband them all.

Fenrir said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

Fenrir said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

Fenrir said:

---

I'm all for ridding the federal government of people that do not adhere to laws and the constitution. I'm just certain that you and the vast majority of people in this country, especially those in power, don't actually want to limit those abuses of power and instead just want to use the weapon for your own uses.

I don't believe it is possible to have a federal entity like the FBI without it also being a bludgeon against political enemies. There simply is no oversight and the political persuasion in power that I keep being told is only growing stronger and has no intention of relinquishing their tool.

---

I think to say that I (someone you know nothing about) and the vast majority of Americans don't want to limit those who abuse power is just emotional hyperbole. Even Trump tried to use the FBI for personal reasons.

The common factor in any organization be it local, state, or federal is people. Organizations aren't corrupt, people are. Take any government agency out of commission and you'll have to rely on another government to provide that service. Just like the angst pro or against Paxton and other in Texas and charges of corruption, all we can do is be vigilant against the bad apples.

---

How is it emotional hyperbole? It's a complete nonfactor on the political landscape. The vast majority of people don't care that the FBI has abused and eroded the constitutional rights of Americans for decades. It's basically Stockholm Syndrome at this point. That Trump tried to use it is not counter to my argument.

I don't disagree with you that the people that make up the organization are corrupt. That's entirely my point. I don't think this organization is salvageable because there is no meaningful oversight and no punishment when they break laws or go against the constitution. There is nothing but an "aw shucks, we won't do it again..." from them. Our entire federal government is simply an organization whose entire modern structure ensures that corruption and abuses will continue to happen at increasing rates. You can't keep giving more and more people without any real oversight and not expect more and more abuses to happen. That's what happens when a massive federal government continues to expand. It's a cancer.

---

So why not get rid of all government? Once you get a group of people together to make a decision, you have politics....even if initially they all generally agree on some standards. At some point disagreements will arise and some will be happy with the results and some not. And when that happens enough, people will start to divide and come up with reasons why their decisions should be applied.
I mean, its the history of the world. We keep trying to make things better....but burning it all down does the opposite because it assumes everything about it was bad.

---

Our federal government absolutely should be immensely smaller. It was never intended to be the bloated bureaucratic **** hole that it is now. You are never going to stop the federal government from abusing the constitution without also limiting it considerably (much less the constant expansion we've had for decades and decades).

---

And what about the state government and abusing the state constitution? Never happens?

BluHorseShu said:

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American Hardwood said:

---

Quote:

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This is what I don't understand. The ideal would be agents that can separate their political biases from their jobs. But I'm curious that, if the answer is to burn the whole thing down and replace it with only conservatives, that we're just trading one bias for another. There should not be bias, or minimal at most, in the performance of their jobs. They should follow the law, period.

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The conservative bias would be for respect of the law and order and a sense of moral righteousness. That is part of the conservative ideology.

The law is demonstrably 'legally fluid' for the left and they care not a whit about rights or justice. The ends justify the means and all that.

So yes, cleaning house and replacing them with a conservative bias would be considerably better than allowing parts of the cancer to remain.

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I see. So conservatives are immune to using their bias to make unfair decisions or engage in corruption? I'm not asking for a comparison against democrats, I'm talking about people. I can tell you til I'm blue in the face that 'ideally' I'd rather have conservatives leading these orgs...but at the end of the day, they are people. And even people with the best intentions are not immune to corruption.

I can promise you that there are many conservatives that don't respect the law (See sovereign citizens, Ammon Bundy, etc etc). There will always be idiots on both sides that don't believe the law applies to them. There are people on both sides that lack any morality/righteousness.

I would argue that conceptually conservatives do respect law and order, and strive to be morally righteous but that doesn't mean all democrats do not.

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I never spoke in absolutes, only in generalities. And in an ideological context, not personal.

But I contend that even in your example, if some who identifies as conservative doesn't respect the law, then are they truly a conservative? Same thing on the left. I don't care what people claim they are, I care about their core belief system, what they actually are. And in a comparison of core belief systems in the context of a lawful, just governmental entity, I believe conservatism beats out any anti-human leftist ideology any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Also, find me one of those morally righteous democrats you mentioned and let's get some questions going and find out exactly how on board they are with leftist power structure entrenching itself today. Likewise, there are some RINO's out there too that have no business aligning themselves with a true conservative caucus.

"Inhale what I am, Exhale what I think I am." - Inhale Exhale/Henry Rollins

BluHorseShu said:

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Fenrir said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Fenrir said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Fenrir said:

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I'm all for ridding the federal government of people that do not adhere to laws and the constitution. I'm just certain that you and the vast majority of people in this country, especially those in power, don't actually want to limit those abuses of power and instead just want to use the weapon for your own uses.

I don't believe it is possible to have a federal entity like the FBI without it also being a bludgeon against political enemies. There simply is no oversight and the political persuasion in power that I keep being told is only growing stronger and has no intention of relinquishing their tool.

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I think to say that I (someone you know nothing about) and the vast majority of Americans don't want to limit those who abuse power is just emotional hyperbole. Even Trump tried to use the FBI for personal reasons.

The common factor in any organization be it local, state, or federal is people. Organizations aren't corrupt, people are. Take any government agency out of commission and you'll have to rely on another government to provide that service. Just like the angst pro or against Paxton and other in Texas and charges of corruption, all we can do is be vigilant against the bad apples.

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How is it emotional hyperbole? It's a complete nonfactor on the political landscape. The vast majority of people don't care that the FBI has abused and eroded the constitutional rights of Americans for decades. It's basically Stockholm Syndrome at this point. That Trump tried to use it is not counter to my argument.

I don't disagree with you that the people that make up the organization are corrupt. That's entirely my point. I don't think this organization is salvageable because there is no meaningful oversight and no punishment when they break laws or go against the constitution. There is nothing but an "aw shucks, we won't do it again..." from them. Our entire federal government is simply an organization whose entire modern structure ensures that corruption and abuses will continue to happen at increasing rates. You can't keep giving more and more people without any real oversight and not expect more and more abuses to happen. That's what happens when a massive federal government continues to expand. It's a cancer.

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So why not get rid of all government? Once you get a group of people together to make a decision, you have politics....even if initially they all generally agree on some standards. At some point disagreements will arise and some will be happy with the results and some not. And when that happens enough, people will start to divide and come up with reasons why their decisions should be applied.
I mean, its the history of the world. We keep trying to make things better....but burning it all down does the opposite because it assumes everything about it was bad.

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Our federal government absolutely should be immensely smaller. It was never intended to be the bloated bureaucratic **** hole that it is now. You are never going to stop the federal government from abusing the constitution without also limiting it considerably (much less the constant expansion we've had for decades and decades).

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And what about the state government and abusing the state constitution? Never happens?

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I didn't say that now did I? A reasonably intelligent and honest person would realize that our original federal structure was intended to deal with abuses by the states as well. The Supreme Court has been dealing with cases involving states for over 200 years. Never mind that states have their own supreme courts to address issues. It's never going to be a perfect system (nothing ever will be) but it's far better than a system that puts so much power into the hands of unseen individuals, which as you've mentioned are the ones that are corrupted.

American Hardwood said:

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Under Hitler, the trains ran on time!

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LOL yep...Hitler visited orphanages at Christmas and donated to charitable causes. That's about how foolish people who say "but the FBI does SOME good things" look.

BluHorseShu said:

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schmellba99 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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schmellba99 said:

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B-1 83 said:

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nortex97 said:

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More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

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That agent may have been the lead in this investigation, but you can never be too sure. Shun and damn them all……

How do they find time for this?

Hint: They do lots of good stuff, and the average agent in the field has zero to do with the Washington DC and leadership crapshow

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I used to think that. I no longer do.

What good stuff do they do? And the average agent still follows orders, even when they know those orders are against the Constitution. Soooooo.......fuggem. Fuggem all.

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Amazing how many here have a detailed understanding of everything these orgs do everywhere all the time. I guess I didn't realize that every one in those orgs is knowingly in on the conspiracy and realizes everything they do is against the constitution.
I was worried people were just repeating what other posters usually say based on a few incidents that happened to not go the way they wanted.
Can you imagine the love for the FBI if they never investigated anything related to Trump and only went after Hillary?
But I'm sure when Trump is elected he'll fire all of them (since all are complicit) or just disband these orgs in their entirety. I mean, he's not going to go against the perceptions of his most ardent supporters. Maybe he'll even hang them for treason. Wouldn't that give some folks some satisfaction....though it would likely be the end of our Republic.

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I give zero F's about this, and you can quit tryign to hang your hat on it.

The FBI, ATF and most other alphabet organizations are unconstitutional organizations. Period. Full stop. But especially with the FBI and the ATF, they do not operate in the interest of the citizens of the US. In fact, a very good and strong argument can be made they they openly operat against the citizens of the US based on their actions, in actions or desire to circumvent the legislative and constitutional process.

So yea...disband them. Yesterday. We would all be far, far better off.

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I understand this is the point of view of a number of people. They think "I don't care what arguments you offer for consideration, I want it all burned down because I believe the entire government is against a certain group of us citizens and I do not see any good trying to salvage any of it". In short, they give zero F's. But there are alot of conservatives who give many F's and don't want to see it all burn down because they know that is not the solution to better lives for Americans.
But then, at least to date, the only thing I can tangibly say the government has done against me is tax the crap out of me. But that's both Federal, state and local governments. I guess we could disband them all.

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I'm glad you feel as if you can put words into my mouth. Because I said no such thing. I was very clear in what I said and why I believe it.

Reading is hard, I know.

BluHorseShu said:

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schmellba99 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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schmellba99 said:

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B-1 83 said:

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nortex97 said:

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More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

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That agent may have been the lead in this investigation, but you can never be too sure. Shun and damn them all……

How do they find time for this?

Hint: They do lots of good stuff, and the average agent in the field has zero to do with the Washington DC and leadership crapshow

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I used to think that. I no longer do.

What good stuff do they do? And the average agent still follows orders, even when they know those orders are against the Constitution. Soooooo.......fuggem. Fuggem all.

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Amazing how many here have a detailed understanding of everything these orgs do everywhere all the time. I guess I didn't realize that every one in those orgs is knowingly in on the conspiracy and realizes everything they do is against the constitution.
I was worried people were just repeating what other posters usually say based on a few incidents that happened to not go the way they wanted.
Can you imagine the love for the FBI if they never investigated anything related to Trump and only went after Hillary?
But I'm sure when Trump is elected he'll fire all of them (since all are complicit) or just disband these orgs in their entirety. I mean, he's not going to go against the perceptions of his most ardent supporters. Maybe he'll even hang them for treason. Wouldn't that give some folks some satisfaction....though it would likely be the end of our Republic.

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I give zero F's about this, and you can quit tryign to hang your hat on it.

The FBI, ATF and most other alphabet organizations are unconstitutional organizations. Period. Full stop. But especially with the FBI and the ATF, they do not operate in the interest of the citizens of the US. In fact, a very good and strong argument can be made they they openly operat against the citizens of the US based on their actions, in actions or desire to circumvent the legislative and constitutional process.

So yea...disband them. Yesterday. We would all be far, far better off.

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Okay. So do you have a plan to replace them at all? I mean do you really understand every facet that the FBI works in to keep Americans safe domestically? No one is disagreeing that there are some bad apples. But the chaos that would ensue if we just shut it down would be insane. The level each state relies on the expertise and capability of the FBI is immense. I guess we could just go to having state investigation agencies that only deal with their own state and don't collaborate cohesively with other states for crimes.

Who's going to investigate if your child was kidnapped and taken out of state? And what resources do they have at their disposal. If that happened today, you'd be fine with the FBI no longer existing? Or would you want any and every significant resource at your disposal?

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Yep, no replacement at all. I'm not convinced they serve a purpose worth the cost. Especially the ATF - they literally do nothing that is in line with the Constitution or freedom. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

And I forget, no LEO agencies speak to other LEO agencies at all in today's world. Nope, once they hit their jurisdictional lines, they just give up and call it a day. Or something. It's also not like the massive amount of tax dollars ($11.3 BILLION in 2024) that is taken from the people (and the states) could never be re-purposed to local and state agencies to perform the exact same functions. Nope, that could never happen either.

I'm so glad you are here to point out the folly of our ways and remind us how benevolent the government is and how much of a service they provide to us citizens that serve under them. So glad.

B-1 83 said:

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schmellba99 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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schmellba99 said:

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B-1 83 said:

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nortex97 said:

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More people should behave like this toward FBI/ATF employees socially.

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That agent may have been the lead in this investigation, but you can never be too sure. Shun and damn them all……

How do they find time for this?

Hint: They do lots of good stuff, and the average agent in the field has zero to do with the Washington DC and leadership crapshow

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I used to think that. I no longer do.

What good stuff do they do? And the average agent still follows orders, even when they know those orders are against the Constitution. Soooooo.......fuggem. Fuggem all.

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Amazing how many here have a detailed understanding of everything these orgs do everywhere all the time. I guess I didn't realize that every one in those orgs is knowingly in on the conspiracy and realizes everything they do is against the constitution.
I was worried people were just repeating what other posters usually say based on a few incidents that happened to not go the way they wanted.
Can you imagine the love for the FBI if they never investigated anything related to Trump and only went after Hillary?
But I'm sure when Trump is elected he'll fire all of them (since all are complicit) or just disband these orgs in their entirety. I mean, he's not going to go against the perceptions of his most ardent supporters. Maybe he'll even hang them for treason. Wouldn't that give some folks some satisfaction....though it would likely be the end of our Republic.

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I give zero F's about this, and you can quit tryign to hang your hat on it.

The FBI, ATF and most other alphabet organizations are unconstitutional organizations. Period. Full stop. But especially with the FBI and the ATF, they do not operate in the interest of the citizens of the US. In fact, a very good and strong argument can be made they they openly operat against the citizens of the US based on their actions, in actions or desire to circumvent the legislative and constitutional process.

So yea...disband them. Yesterday. We would all be far, far better off.

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Oh really? You'll have to explain that one. The 'ol "They're not in the Constitution" argument is a hollow one due to Article 2 Section 2, the existence of such agencies under Cabinet departments for over two centuries, and the SCOTUS rulings. To top it off, nobody ever answers the question of just what Cabinet positions are specifically mentioned in the Constitution.

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Especially in the case of the ATF - they are an agency of appointed bureaucrats that have the authority to create law (they try to hide it by calling them "opinions") that is then subsequently enforced by other agencies, such as the FBI.

These are unelected officials with whom we as citizens have essentially zero recourse against. And, again, especially with the ATF - they have the luxury of being able to change their "opinons" on a whim. And their "opinions" have the force of law because violating said "opinions" comes with criminal and financial punishment, including prison time. All for "opinions" of people, like this director, who admits they know nothing about firearms.

Unelected bureaucrats should NEVER have the power of lawmaking at their whim. That is solely the jurisdiction of Congress. So by that function alone, they are outside the bounds of the Constitution.

Concerning the FBI - nowhere in the Constitution does it give the Federal government the power to create a national police force (which is what the FBI is). The fact that they have been a known corrupt organization since their inception should lead anybody to want them disbanded, but especially with the more recent absolute corruption that they put on display without a care in the world. It was never the intent of the Founders for such agencies to exist, because they specifically framed a relatively weak federal government for a reason.

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because they specifically framed a relatively weak federal government for a reason.

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The fact that some refuse to acknowledge this while claiming to be conservative is a laughable position.

American Hardwood said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Quote:

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This is what I don't understand. The ideal would be agents that can separate their political biases from their jobs. But I'm curious that, if the answer is to burn the whole thing down and replace it with only conservatives, that we're just trading one bias for another. There should not be bias, or minimal at most, in the performance of their jobs. They should follow the law, period.

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The conservative bias would be for respect of the law and order and a sense of moral righteousness. That is part of the conservative ideology.

The law is demonstrably 'legally fluid' for the left and they care not a whit about rights or justice. The ends justify the means and all that.

So yes, cleaning house and replacing them with a conservative bias would be considerably better than allowing parts of the cancer to remain.

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I see. So conservatives are immune to using their bias to make unfair decisions or engage in corruption? I'm not asking for a comparison against democrats, I'm talking about people. I can tell you til I'm blue in the face that 'ideally' I'd rather have conservatives leading these orgs...but at the end of the day, they are people. And even people with the best intentions are not immune to corruption.

I can promise you that there are many conservatives that don't respect the law (See sovereign citizens, Ammon Bundy, etc etc). There will always be idiots on both sides that don't believe the law applies to them. There are people on both sides that lack any morality/righteousness.

I would argue that conceptually conservatives do respect law and order, and strive to be morally righteous but that doesn't mean all democrats do not.

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I never spoke in absolutes, only in generalities. And in an ideological context, not personal.

But I contend that even in your example, if some who identifies as conservative doesn't respect the law, then are they truly a conservative? Same thing on the left. I don't care what people claim they are, I care about their core belief system, what they actually are. And in a comparison of core belief systems in the context of a lawful, just governmental entity, I believe conservatism beats out any anti-human leftist ideology any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Also, find me one of those morally righteous democrats you mentioned and let's get some questions going and find out exactly how on board they are with leftist power structure entrenching itself today. Likewise, there are some RINO's out there too that have no business aligning themselves with a true conservative caucus.

"Inhale what I am, Exhale what I think I am." - Inhale Exhale/Henry Rollins

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I can accept that. The only problem is that we see examples every day of people claiming to be conservative (either by themselves or others) and then they slip up. So after they've been held in that regard, are they no longer conservative? I think someone like Jimmy Carter was morally righteous...he was just on the wrong side of policies that work. I would absolutely not put Biden there. The same is true for Trump....he is absolutely not conservative...but he is being championed for the WH because he did a few things (one that I really appreciated with the SCOTUS picks), but I would not deem him to be morally righteous....or at least if we are going to overlook someone personal life and only consider them righteous based on political policy. But even then he's not fiscally conservative. Or take the Zieglers in Fla. Are they morally righteous?

Side note: Nicely done with the HR quote. I'm a fan.