What happened to honor?

3,821 Views | 28 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by BG Knocc Out
TheGreatEscape
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Our leader told Israel that we support them and added a full stop.

Then he crumbled and became a liar by making conditions upon his previous statement of unconditional support.

Now it's we don't support Israel unless they cease fire when we tell them to and get out when Hamas is destroyed.

It makes us all look like a bunch of lying hypocrites.

Dear Israel,

We of the Judeo-Christian worldview support you. Full stop.
Waffledynamics
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I don't get it either. Apparently we love frozen conflicts around the globe.
Owlagdad
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We will just have to wait until Joe tries to tell us what obama told him to say.
techno-ag
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Libs have always thought if you just talk enough, people will stop fighting. Neville Chamberlain is a prime example. But sometimes you have to put a bully in his place, even if that means war.
Trump will fix it.
TheGreatEscape
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This is why historic Christianity can give us a backbone. Thank St. Augustine of the 4th Century for giving us a spine.
Long read hut worth it. There are some opinions on modern war that I left out. You can find that in the link. But here is a good read for Judeo-Christian Worldview types.

Maybe some day we will produce a leader who has honor as a result of reading this article.


"The way we think about the legitimacy of war has its origins in the thought of St Augustine. He believed that the Kingdom of Peace cannot be realised within human history, only beyond, therefore we have to reckon with the reality of sin, including violence, and the possibility of war. Yet despite this reality, he had a deep abhorrence of war and so he wanted to develop a tool to assess the morality of wars in order to limit their number and brutality, and to protect the moral order of the world. This tool took the form of a set of conditions to be satisfied for a war to be considered just what we have come to know as Just War Theory. This theory remains the primary moral framework for questions of military intervention by States, both for Christians and more generally. For example, when an international commission was asked to define the 'Responsibility to Protect' and set out the conditions for humanitarian military intervention, it used the criteria set out in traditional Just War Theory.[1]

Criteria for a Just War
Augustine's criteria were developed by Thomas Aquinas and there have been various subsequent amendments [2], and the criteria were substantially examined by the Catholic Bishops of the USA in 1983.[3] The presumption of the theory, in keeping with Augustine's stance, is against war. The theory falls in two main parts: jus ad bellum, which is concerned with the ethics of declaring war; and jus in bello, concerned with conduct during war. (Today, ethicists have increasingly been talking of jus post bellum, concerned with the conduct of the victorious party after the war.) The criteria can be summarised as follows:

Jus ad bellum

1. Wars must be fought only on legitimate authority. This criterion aimed to limit conflicts by small-scale barons, captains and princelings, and is often treated as the sine qua non of Just War Theory. [4]

2. The cause must be just. The war must be fought, for example, in order to resist aggression, protect the innocent, or to support the rights of some oppressed group. There must be significant reasons which are weighty enough to overthrow the prima facie duty that we should not kill or injure others.

3. The war must have right intention. It must advance the good and avoid evil, have clear aims and be open to negotiation; it must not be for revenge or for the sake of killing and there should be no ulterior motive. It must be waged without love of violence, or cruelty; and regret or remorse should be the proper attitude. This is shaped by the pursuit of a just cause. Since peace should be the object of war, killing is a means to that end. This condition also holds for jus in bello.

4. It must be a last resort, all other attempts having failed or being unavailable.

5. There must be a reasonable hope of justice, or a reasonable chance of success, in order to prevent pointless wars. If there is no such hope, then it would not just be imprudent, but there would be no good grounds to override the prima facie obligation to not harm others if none of the just ends can be realised, and thus going to war would be immoral. [5]

Jus in bello

6. There must be discrimination. Non-combatants should not be directly or intentionally attacked, although it is recognised that there may be accidental casualties.

7. There must be proportion; that is, there must be a balance between the good achieved versus the harm done. This condition takes into account the effects on all human beings, not just those on one side, and it is the effects on humans rather than other physical damage which have priority. This condition also applies to jus ad bellum, in order to prevent going to war over minor disputes.

A just war, then, is not a war in which both sides act justly; in fact there cannot be such a war. For a war to be just, that war must be waged in order to right a wrong or to prevent an imminent injustice.

The Basis for Just War Theory
There is general acceptance that killing is, all things being equal, a grave wrong. John Rawls argues, for example, that we have a 'natural duty' which is owed to persons generally not to injure or harm others. [6] Christian theology derives the same obligation from the Decalogue and more generally from the norm of agape. [7] It is necessary then both to demonstrate that the prima facie obligation not to kill or injure others is overridden in the case of a just war and that the innocent [8] are not being directly killed.

The demands of justice are such a case. For example, outside the room in which I am writing there is a playground full of children. If someone came into the playground and started to attack the children and if I had a rifle by the desk, I would be justified in shooting the assailant, even though I myself may not be at risk. The classical natural law of justice, which is viewed as superior to the laws and demands of any State, sees all people as brothers and sisters who share in the cosmic logos and thus we are required to treat each other with the justice and respect owed to all. [9] Implicit is a concept of human solidarity, according to which we have mutual obligations and duties to all people. Roman law also involved contractual obligations which entitled one to protect the rights of others and seek redress from those who cause the individual or State injury or harm.

Just War Theory is based on this classical view and from it the central concepts derive: that of the prior guilt of the offending party; and of just war as a means of vindicating violated rights or a violated order of justice, or as the means of restoring justice. However, the enemy's natural rights must be protected since they are also humans and must be treated with justice and respect, even after hostilities have begun. Hence conduct in war must be just. [10]

The decision to go to war is not made simply on the basis of the enemy's deeds, for example being unjust or violating international law, but also on one's own intentions: they must be upright in terms of both means adopted and ends pursued. Moreover, all the aims and intentions must be included. It is not permissible to use some just intentions to justify the pursuit of other unjust intentions. Thus clear objectives are required. Intent, however, is complex; moreover, outcomes of wars are notoriously unpredictable: they rarely achieve their political objectives unambiguously and often become the cause of future wars.

Prima facie obligations
Killing is a prima facie wrong and always stands in need of justification: without justification on moral grounds it is an actual wrong. Killing, then, is never morally neutral: according to Frankena, 'even when they [the killers] are justified there is still one moral point against them'. [11] So Just War Theory in effect deals with a moral dilemma: there are two prima facie obligations to avoid killing and to meet the demands of justice and one cannot be fulfilled without sacrificing the other. The dilemma is resolved by finding justification for sacrificing one in favour of the other and the criteria are the means by which one decides. Just War Theory starts with a presumption that war is prohibited and is not justified unless it can be demonstrated as such, and then specifies situations in which use of force would be justified. However, the burden of proof rests on the person who intends to go to war.[12]

The distinction between prima facie and actual obligations is important. The argument is that what appears to be a conflict ceases to be so once the situation is correctly analysed and the actual obligations become clear. [13] 'To hold that an obligation or duty is prima facie is to claim that it always has a strong moral reason for its performance, although this reason may not always be decisive or triumph over all other reasons'.[14] So, other things being equal, a prima facie duty is normally binding but, unlike an absolute duty, it does not necessarily determine one's actual obligation.

Just War Theory provides for situations when the prima facie obligation is overridden. However, the obligation is not cancelled and continues to exert influence, particularly in jus in bello. Specifically, the theory states that the aim should be to restrain or incapacitate, rather than kill or injure; that unnecessary suffering is excluded; that aggression is only directed towards combatants when they are a threat (that is, they cease to be a legitimate target once they surrender or are injured), and that attack on non-combatants is wrong or unethical. In this sense there is a distinction between the person qua person, and the person qua soldier. [15] Moreover, any indirect or incidental effects on non-combatants must be justified by proportionality.

So in certain circumstances it is legitimate and necessary to override some prima facie duties in favour of others which have a stronger claim and take priority, such as to uphold justice or to protect the innocent. War, therefore, can be a moral undertaking and the State has the right to go to war, but it remains subject to moral principles and rules determined by the overridden prima facie obligations."


https://www.thinkingfaith.org/articles/20131011_2.htm


Livewire82
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Nothing says freedom and honor quite like displacing rage onto and committing war crimes against an arbitrary group of innocent people locked in a far away cage to show support for a foreign regime that couldn't care less about you. Especially after your own govt spent the better part of recent years dehumanizing citizens, stripping rights, and calling freedom advocates extremists. I guess it is easier to hate on others actually standing up to tyranny than it is to stand up for yourself at home.



one safe place
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Waffledynamics said:

I don't get it either. Apparently we love frozen conflicts around the globe.
They stretch things out as long as they can, American companies can then have a longer time frame in which to sell things, American companies make more things to sell, more money coming to those making and selling things means larger campaign contributions.
CheeseSndwch
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one safe place said:

Waffledynamics said:

I don't get it either. Apparently we love frozen conflicts around the globe.
They stretch things out as long as they can, American companies can then have a longer time frame in which to sell things, American companies make more things to sell, more money coming to those making and selling things means larger campaign contributions.

War may be good for business but nation building takes the graft to a whole other level.
AggieMD95
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Weakness perpetuates conflict. Here we are in its midst
P.H. Dexippus
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[You're free to disagree with and debate another poster's point of view, but simply contributing insults isn't the way to go -- Staff]
APHIS AG
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When has ANY Democrat shown at least one ounce of honor or integrity?
TXaggiesTX
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No such thing as a judeo Christian worldview. Those are 2 very different world views. Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ - 1 John 2:22
TheGreatEscape
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In a sense, I agree with you.

But not a jot or tittle will pass away from the law so long as heaven and earth remain (from Matthew 5).

It's unfortunate that after 70 AD and the destruction of the temple that Hebrews began to interpret the Hebrew Bible through the lenses of the Talmud. It messed up a lot of things.

But anyway, we agree that their inclusion into the new covenant has been denied without the acceptance of Jesus' free gift of salvation (Romans 11).

If you read Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Sons and the religious leaders he was addressing, then you know that the younger prodigal son represents those who would believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But the story is also about the elder son's jealousy and anger with his father for throwing a party and accepting back his younger brother. The elder son represents the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

Anyway, I believe the Jews are very important to the region living in Israel. Better to happen over there than over here because it would. It is the case whether we support Israel or not. My opinion is historically accurate.

The Ottoman's invaded Constantinople when Israel was under Muslim control or Ottoman control. Many Christians were enslaved and killed by Muslims in the region, even before the rise of the Ottoman Empire. If you need a link just ask or google Islam and Eastern Orthodox Church.

Furthermore, we are trying to reach the hearts of the Hebrew people because we are closely connected in our history, the Hebrew Bible, and the New Testament (which often quotes the Hebrew Bible or reiterates the Law and the Prophets of the Hebrew Bible by applying the law and the prophets to believers in Jesus as the Messiah).

So they may spit on Christians or spit on the ground when they pass Christians in Israel, but we will show them our love and support.

And Israel has many Jews who are atheists and LGBTQ supporters. So…they are a lot like us. We all need help in our cultures.

Prayers.

Warmly,

TGE
ts5641
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What happened to honor? democrats
TheGreatEscape
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Romans 1:16 (ESV)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

To the Jew first should still be our hope and prayer.
nortex97
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No one, including of course the Israeli's, took him at his word.

And I am sure he doesn't even remember his word, what with it having been spoken more than thirty seconds ago. Poopy pants is not now and never has been an honorable man. He married his kids baby-sitter for goodness sakes. No one who has ever voted for him for any office has any honor either.
TheGreatEscape
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And that's a shame.
I am hesitant in standing for everything George W. stood for and did.

But he didn't appear to poll for everyone's opinion in every single decision when he would make a stand.

I respect him for that.

A mobocracy is exactly what Aristotle feared in his work on Politics. Aristotle wanted to develop a life of virtue for a Republic's citizens and wanted to make it possible for them to live a life of virtue.

japantiger
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How "just wars" get started are not hard to sort out morally.

It's when the stark reality that "War is Hell" decends on one side and they want out; but don't want to surrender or face justice for their "unjust" actions, that things get dicey. "I know I supported the bad guys who did this to you; and they're still trying to kill you, and I am still hiding them in my home and shielding them; but don't hurt me" is the essence of the dilemma for a combatant seeking justice.

Proportionality and how to draw the boundary between the person qua person, and the person qua soldier (and when an enemy can retreat behind the facade of a defeated enemy) are where theory and practice diverge.

  • What, for example, is a "proportionate response" to an enemy who's tactics are unspeakable terror and brutality (systematic rape, mutilation of corpses, beheadings, burning innocents alive, etc.).
  • Can a whole civilian population be exempted from consequences just because, after supporting above tactics (voting for the perpetrators, even cheering them in public as they bring back mutilated bodies, etc) they suddenly cry out for mercy when the consequences of their actions are brought to their doorstep....while failing to do anything to aid in the destruction of those responsible for hell being reigned down on them?

Where is the morality in demanding that a wronged combatant seeking justice put themselves (their soldiers, their children and grandchildren) in mortal danger to reduce the risk to those that supported the unjust war and it's barbaric tactics?

For example, asking a soldier to engage in (the most) dangerous door to door combat in an effort to minimize civilian casualties, while the same civilians give aid, succor and protect the enemy; is an inherently immoral act. In that case, the not-innocent civilian is asking for an obligation and claim on the life of the soldier. That not-innocent civilian, who had a hand in starting the unjust war, is claiming they have a greater right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than the person that is forced to respond to their (continuing) "unjust actions".

War is hell. Don't start it if you don't want to reap the whirlwind. Unconditional surrender will end it; just ask Japan and Germany. I love the moral clarity that the most famous Texags post ever summed up in one word; "Nazi's".

zephyr88
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Our support with a Trump administration would be unwavering,

Full stop.

FJB
TheGreatEscape
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Japantiger,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

If you notice that the Just War theory of the church led by St. Augustine…Just War theory never mentions that combatants should only shoot when fired upon.

I believe that shooting when you see someone armed with a weapon is justified and not condemned by Just War theory.

Just War theory was invented by Christians. We invented it way before the Geneva Convention and the rules of engagement and all of the hypocrisy.

Forget those silly secular efforts and conventions.
Adhere to Just War theory and we'd be much, much better in supporting our men and women serving.
Funky Winkerbean
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Why can't we support something without money?
TheGreatEscape
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I was silent about the Ukraine ordeal until about a week ago because I had to think it through. We should not be funding Ukraine. I'd much rather have a Russian Orthodox influence in Ukraine over what they've got right now. Not that Russia is a saint. What state ever has been?

And I am against the aggression and attack of Russia on Ukraine. The Russians started an unjust war. But I wish our country became neutral on the situation over there.

But with Israel, they keep things in check over there and keep Islam occupied. Plus, and this is a big plus, Israel wasn't the one who started the fight. Hamas is like a fighter who decided to fight way above his strength, speed, and weight class. When men grow up, they learn this lesson. But Gaza never will. And we all know why. It's an existential and spiritual issue at the root of it all.

And the Hebrews in Israel are stuck in their erroneous doctrine of DNA. The Hebrews do have the Noetic Covenant movement. But Christians have the full covenant blessings and not merely God's covenant to Noah. So it gets sketchy for our elder brothers and sisters.

Remember the Prodigal Son parable and you'll get what I mean.
annie88
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TheGreatEscape said:

Our leader told Israel that we support them and added a full stop.

Then he crumbled and became a liar by making conditions upon his previous statement of unconditional support.

Now it's we don't support Israel unless they cease fire when we tell them to and get out when Hamas is destroyed.

It makes us all look like a bunch of lying hypocrites.

Dear Israel,

We of the Judeo-Christian worldview support you. Full stop.
Us? Nope.

Democrats and poopy pants pervert? Yep.

The world has been laughing at us for three years.

And the bad guys are licking their chops.
“My philopsophy is this: Its none of my business what people say of me or think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier." ~ Sir Anthony Hopkins
TheGreatEscape
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I keep using the words untethered culture…

Look at what has happened to us because we have forsaken Just War theory and the Biblical principles upon which it
Is verified.
Proposition Joe
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TXaggiesTX said:

No such thing as a judeo Christian worldview. Those are 2 very different world views. Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ - 1 John 2:22

The worldview is that of "we can disagree but we can live in peace with that disagreement".

I find it interesting when things delve into "my religion is right, the other religion is incorrect" when it comes to Christianity and Judaism -- because that line of thinking is the same line of thinking of the radicals we are battling worldwide.
TheGreatEscape
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At least neither of those two are Islam.

Christians definitely have more in common with 2nd Temple Judaism before the Talmud became their New Testament after the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70AD.
japantiger
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TheGreatEscape said:

Japantiger,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

If you notice that the Just War theory of the church led by St. Augustine…Just War theory never mentions that combatants should only shoot when fired upon.

I believe that shooting when you see someone armed with a weapon is justified and not condemned by Just War theory.

Just War theory was invented by Christians. We invented it way before the Geneva Convention and the rules of engagement and all of the hypocrisy.

Forget those silly secular efforts and conventions.
Adhere to Just War theory and we'd be much, much better in supporting our men and women serving.
Yes, I should have made note that I was specifically attacking current leftist dogma's interpretation of it.
TheGreatEscape
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I love you. Thank you.
BG Knocc Out
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Things like honesty, honor, loyalty etc. are hallmarks of white supremacy and must be scrapped forever. See CFB.
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