Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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nu awlins ag said:

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Spotted Ag said:

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In Texas public schools you attend the district in which you live. However, you can choose to transfer to another district IF the new district accepts your application. You can always send your kid to private school if they accept your application.

Where it gets stupid is when the UIL gets involved. If they kid is an athlete the morons at the UIL like to be little dictators and then they decide if the kid can participate in varsity level sports at the new school. Your family can actually move into a new district and if your kid is a good athlete the DEC can rule that they aren't eligible to participate in varsity level activities for one year. It's a damn joke and another example of adults choosing to do what's best for adults and not what's best for kids.

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Well in Katy ISD, kids transfer all the time for football. It's getting ridiculous.

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Can you share more about this?

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What would you like to know, names?

Houstonag said:

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I have a lot of experience with the Texas public education system for over 50 years. A very good system over all but not perfect. Biggest problem is apathetic selfish voters who do not pay attention to who they are voting for the school boards. From that good or bad leads to poor administration, budget problems, discipline, etc. We know who they are for the state had to move in with magistrates.

School choice is fine but a whole sale diversion of dollars from a system that has worked for 95% of the time is not workable.

I personally went to catholic school during elementary school for my mother did not like what she saw in my local school district. Ok but we moved later to another city and we finished in public school. My parents got zero dollars from the state to help with tuition in the catholic schools.

To sum up the practicality of having "choice" needs to be fully understood for the so called choice schools could not accommodate some abrupt shift. So why not fix the problem with the struggling school district with more support to deal with discipline and sometimes poor teaches. Provide an incentive for top teaches to go in and teach and not have to deal with class disruption.

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Frankly, your whole post is completely off base.

When you introduce competition into the system, it's amazing how many changes can be made in a very short amount of time.

The reason those issues exist is because there is absolutely no incentive for them to change, and because the 504's and special needs have money tied to them.

Administrative bloat is a function of zero need to be efficient and the ever increasing regulations pushed down by the TEA and the feds....such as 504's, etc.

CDUB98 said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Rural school districts fight school choice because government jobs are usually the only remaining good paying jobs in rural areas. The more rural the area the more stratified the job market becomes. Either you're a land owner or an hourly laborer. Being a part of a school district (no matter how underpaid they say) is a pipe dream compared to getting back out and doing manual labor. Government jobs also become extremely nepotistic in these areas.

School choice would dismantle what little lower middle class jobs are available into even more lower paid, leaner jobs.

So when rural politicians fight school choice its because the school teacher and administration voting block is strong enough to keep a politician in check so the admin can keep their gravy train running.

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Except there is no other choice in a rural setting. The public school is the only option. IMO, that argument is DOA.

It's not like someone can just set up an accredited school in a couple of days.

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Just because there isn't a choice now (because of a monopolistic beaucracy) doesn't mean there can't be when you remove said beaucracy. How much time do you think you need to spin up a charter school? The parents who want their kids out of a bad situation ASAP can pull together a school in a few weeks, tops. It'll certainly start as an extension of a homeschool.

why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

one MEEN Ag said:

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Rural school districts fight school choice because government jobs are usually the only remaining good paying jobs in rural areas. The more rural the area the more stratified the job market becomes. Either you're a land owner or an hourly laborer. Being a part of a school district (no matter how underpaid they say) is a pipe dream compared to getting back out and doing manual labor. Government jobs also become extremely nepotistic in these areas.

School choice would dismantle what little lower middle class jobs are available into even more lower paid, leaner jobs.

So when rural politicians fight school choice its because the school teacher and administration voting block is strong enough to keep a politician in check so the admin can keep their gravy train running.

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Most of them fight it because they either don't understand the system, or have been convinced that if school choice were to pass, every single student would overnight take flight to somewhere else. Which is absolutely not the case.

In fact, rural districts would likely see the smallest amount of overall change versus urban and suburban districts, for a few reasons - first being that in most truly rural districts, there isn't much of an option for private school to begin with and, generally speaking, most people in rural districts tend to be fairly satisified with the public school system. Rural districts also are easier controlled by the parents because of the fact that they are smaller and everybody in the area usually knows what is going on in town and everywhere outside of town.

Isn't a charter school a public school? Serious question as I don't know.

Even if it is a private started by a homeschool group,

1) How many homeschoolers are you realistically going to have in a rural setting? Not many at all.

2) Notice I said "accredited." That's a very key distinction.

BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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As long as you pay property taxes, the public schools ain't losing money. From the state for the head count, yes, but not local.

BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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Answering the bolded, because they don't have to address it. They can sit back and collect their fat, taxpayer checks without doing anything substantial so long as the district passes the minimum necessary.

nu awlins ag said:

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BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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As long as you pay property taxes, the public schools ain't losing money. From the state for the head count, yes, but not local.

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Except, I believe, is that this whole idea of "choice" or "vouchers" is to give that money back to the taxpayer to use. I could be wrong.

Houstonag said:

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I have a lot of experience with the Texas public education system for over 50 years. A very good system over all but not perfect. Biggest problem is apathetic selfish voters who do not pay attention to who they are voting for the school boards. From that good or bad leads to poor administration, budget problems, discipline, etc. We know who they are for the state had to move in with magistrates.

School choice is fine but a whole sale diversion of dollars from a system that has worked for 95% of the time is not workable.

I personally went to catholic school during elementary school for my mother did not like what she saw in my local school district. Ok but we moved later to another city and we finished in public school. My parents got zero dollars from the state to help with tuition in the catholic schools.

To sum up the practicality of having "choice" needs to be fully understood for the so called choice schools could not accommodate some abrupt shift. So why not fix the problem with the struggling school district with more support to deal with discipline and sometimes poor teaches. Provide an incentive for top teaches to go in and teach and not have to deal with class disruption.

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There will be no overnight massive change, anybody that thinks that doesn't know much.

As to the rest of the bolded section.....competition and incentive fixes all of that, and pretty quickly as well. The problem is that the government hates a monopoly, unless they control the monopoly. Then they fight tooth and nail to keep that monopoly in their grip. That's what is happening right now with the debate on school choice - it would seriously expose the crappy underbelly of a system that has become a failed system and one that politicians and admins want to keep in place because it is lucrative to them to do so.

NoahAg said:

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ABattJudd said:

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We had a huge concern about FHSAA and how that would work for athletics when the school choice issue opened up. Coaches still can't "recruit," (they do anyway), but kids are pretty much free to move from one school to the other. A kid can play football at my school, then jump over to a school in Orlando 25 miles away for baseball, then come back to us for football the next year.

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Simple solution: Completely remove athletics from public schools. Focus resources on, I don't know, educating.

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This sounds good in theory, but in all honesty - athletics is as good a form of education as anything you'll find in the classrooom. Kids need to learn how to try, fail, be a part of a team and, most importantly, have things outside of books to focus energy on. School isn't just about teaching kids how to read and add and subtract, it's about (or used to be anyway) preparing them for the world after school and how to begin to manage life as an adult.

BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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biggest differences between private and public schools are class size and more parent involvement. I would say that there are very few private school classrooms with more than 20 students in them. compare that to the 35-40 at may of the larger public schools

CDUB98 said:

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nu awlins ag said:

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BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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As long as you pay property taxes, the public schools ain't losing money. From the state for the head count, yes, but not local.

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Except, I believe, is that this whole idea of "choice" or "vouchers" is to give that money back to the taxpayer to use. I could be wrong.

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Not sure about that. Good question, but I think you are still on the hook for your property tax where you are zoned.

BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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Honestly - what makes their schools work so well is their ability to select which students attend, which students don't attend and what their disciplinary system will be.

It also helps that most parents with kids in private schools are far more active in their kid's lives and the management and admin of the school than what you get at your local 5th Ward HISD campus. Sorry, but those are just the facts.

Public schools won't address it, because again - not much incentive to. Whether Thuggie Jr. goes to school or not, his momma's money goes there. So why worry about things when you are getting paid regardless (hell, look at Jimbo's contract as an example). Additionally, the public school has a whole mess of rules, regs, etc. pushed down on them that don't always apply to a private school - and when you are starting off a race with your hamstrings cut, you are never going to catch up.

In literally every other sector of our economy, capitalism is pushed, praised and what everybody strives for. Hell, the government has laws that prevent monopolies in the private sector, because apparently monopolies are bad. Except in public school, then they are somehow the perfect thing. Capitalism and competition are the backbone of our economy, and should be implemented in our school system as well, because they force efficiency, agile thinking and better innovation. There isn't a single thing we use or buy today that is there because of a government run monopoly forcing it to be there - except schools.

Edit - Private schools aren't some sort of Utopia of school systems, don't think they are and I certainly know they aren't. They have their own issues like any other system out there. They just have the flexibility to handle issues in a much more efficient manner than public schools, up to and including just getting rid of the issue all together if necessary.

nu awlins ag said:

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CDUB98 said:

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nu awlins ag said:

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BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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As long as you pay property taxes, the public schools ain't losing money. From the state for the head count, yes, but not local.

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Except, I believe, is that this whole idea of "choice" or "vouchers" is to give that money back to the taxpayer to use. I could be wrong.

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Not sure about that. Good question, but I think you are still on the hook for your property tax where you are zoned.

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I think it depends on how the specific law is structured. Some do a tax deduction or rebate on the state income tax, I think. In Texas, I've heard the idea of having to file paperwork to get a subsidy or whatever you'd like to call it, a rebate? Another possibility is that the taxpayer files some kind of paperwork that removes the ISD tax from their tax bill.

There's really several bureaucratic ways to slice it. Bottom line, while my kiddo is at a private school, I'd like to have that tax money back to pay for her school. After that, just go back to what it is now.

If I lived back in NOLA, my kids would be in private school, but the public they attend is ranked in the top 5 in Academics. Hard to justify that unless you are looking for smaller classes perhaps and some religious offerings.

nu awlins ag said:

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If I lived back in NOLA, my kids would be in private school, but the public they attend is ranked in the top 5 in Academics. Hard to justify that unless you are looking for smaller classes perhaps and some religious offerings.

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Smaller classes
Yes, religious based education
More respectful and disciplined kids
Less to zero fear of a fight breaking out or a kid stabbing another
Parental involvement
Teacher involvement
Minimal Marxism

CDUB98 said:

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nu awlins ag said:

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BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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As long as you pay property taxes, the public schools ain't losing money. From the state for the head count, yes, but not local.

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Except, I believe, is that this whole idea of "choice" or "vouchers" is to give that money back to the taxpayer to use. I could be wrong.

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Correct.

About 50% of your annual property taxes are county, city, etc. taxes, the other 50% or so are school ISD taxes. Percentages vary by county, city, district, etc. but it's generally in the 50/50 range.

Sounds just like his public school which is surprising, but then again it ranked really high academically so you just don't have the stuff you mentioned. Now, the football team is a whole other issue......

BCSWguru said:

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Public schools dont care about your kids, its very evident. Teachers probably do for the most part, but the people making the big dollars at these schools care absolutely zero about your children. Its all about money. And they want more of it.

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So dumb.

Bob Lee said:

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aezmvp said:

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Same problem with Justin Holland east of Dallas. His staff will tell you it's about accountability and you can't keep certain books out of a private schools' library (because they think that will convince religious parents). His staff told me that people would send their kids to underperforming private schools and that student achievement wasn't an indicator of an accountable school.

When Republicans don't have staffers that understand basic market economics (if the school is bad people won't go and there will be no more school) and want to tie any issue to an emotional hook, then we have real problems.

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They actually said the thing about not being able to keep certain books out of the private school's libraries? Wow. They really have no good arguments in opposition to school choice.
This is bureaucrats protecting the jobs of other bureaucrats. Simple as that. The kids can take it up the rear for all they care.

Eta: I can't get over how weak of a retort that is, my eyes would just roll to the back of my head, and it would be so hard to keep my composure if I were talking to this person.
At my kid's school, every single class is recorded and available to watch by parents in their entirety. Try implementing that in a public school, and watch the teachers throw an epic tantrum. Every teacher has to sign an agreement that they are a practicing Catholic, and they understand that teaching anything antithetical to the faith is a fireable offense. They are at least a billion light-years ahead of public schools in the accountability department. How are people taken in by these idiotic talking points?

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Its already mandatory if a parent requests and I personally record about 90% of my days (everyday that I "lecture") and post them everyday.

cevans_40 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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aezmvp said:

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Same problem with Justin Holland east of Dallas. His staff will tell you it's about accountability and you can't keep certain books out of a private schools' library (because they think that will convince religious parents). His staff told me that people would send their kids to underperforming private schools and that student achievement wasn't an indicator of an accountable school.

When Republicans don't have staffers that understand basic market economics (if the school is bad people won't go and there will be no more school) and want to tie any issue to an emotional hook, then we have real problems.

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They actually said the thing about not being able to keep certain books out of the private school's libraries? Wow. They really have no good arguments in opposition to school choice.
This is bureaucrats protecting the jobs of other bureaucrats. Simple as that. The kids can take it up the rear for all they care.

Eta: I can't get over how weak of a retort that is, my eyes would just roll to the back of my head, and it would be so hard to keep my composure if I were talking to this person.
At my kid's school, every single class is recorded and available to watch by parents in their entirety. Try implementing that in a public school, and watch the teachers throw an epic tantrum. Every teacher has to sign an agreement that they are a practicing Catholic, and they understand that teaching anything antithetical to the faith is a fireable offense. They are at least a billion light-years ahead of public schools in the accountability department. How are people taken in by these idiotic talking points?

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Its already mandatory if a parent requests and I personally record about 90% of my days (everyday that I "lecture") and post them everyday.

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Awesome. This is a no brainier to me, and should be mandatory in every public school imo.

I work as an assistant principal in a semi-rural area near our capital city. The biggest problem we face is discipline and FAPE. It is incredibly hard to remove the high flier discipline issues from school, and they are a massive drain on resources. If everyone is entitled to FAPE no matter what, it limits what a district will allow to be done from a discipline standpoint.

Expulsion should be much easier than it is. Kids can cuss out a teacher and be a general A-hole and I can, at most, suspend them three days because of FAPE.

Fix discipline and you fix public education. Or at least go a long ways towards fixing it.

one MEEN Ag said:

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Rural school districts fight school choice because government jobs are usually the only remaining good paying jobs in rural areas. The more rural the area the more stratified the job market becomes. Either you're a land owner or an hourly laborer. Being a part of a school district (no matter how underpaid they say) is a pipe dream compared to getting back out and doing manual labor. Government jobs also become extremely nepotistic in these areas.

School choice would dismantle what little lower middle class jobs are available into even more lower paid, leaner jobs.

So when rural politicians fight school choice its because the school teacher and administration voting block is strong enough to keep a politician in check so the admin can keep their gravy train running.

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LOL. The 40k gravy train

This is some next level fantasy here. We recently had our Superintendent (you know, the highest paid person in the district) leave to take a private sector job making more money with infinitely fewer headaches.

Professional Hitter said:

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I work as an assistant principal in a semi-rural area near our capital city. The biggest problem we face is discipline and FAPE. It is incredibly hard to remove the high flier discipline issues from school, and they are a massive drain on resources. If everyone is entitled to FAPE no matter what, it limits what a district will allow to be done from a discipline standpoint.

Expulsion should be much easier than it is. Kids can cuss out a teacher and be a general A-hole and I can, at most, suspend them three days because of FAPE.

Fix discipline and you fix public education. Or at least go a long ways towards fixing it.

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This is too easy. Instead we should blow up the whole damn system.

I really don't care much about school choice as I don't think it would have much impact on smaller, rural schools but I do wish the voters would fix the public school system.

Bob Lee said:

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cevans_40 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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aezmvp said:

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Same problem with Justin Holland east of Dallas. His staff will tell you it's about accountability and you can't keep certain books out of a private schools' library (because they think that will convince religious parents). His staff told me that people would send their kids to underperforming private schools and that student achievement wasn't an indicator of an accountable school.

When Republicans don't have staffers that understand basic market economics (if the school is bad people won't go and there will be no more school) and want to tie any issue to an emotional hook, then we have real problems.

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They actually said the thing about not being able to keep certain books out of the private school's libraries? Wow. They really have no good arguments in opposition to school choice.
This is bureaucrats protecting the jobs of other bureaucrats. Simple as that. The kids can take it up the rear for all they care.

Eta: I can't get over how weak of a retort that is, my eyes would just roll to the back of my head, and it would be so hard to keep my composure if I were talking to this person.
At my kid's school, every single class is recorded and available to watch by parents in their entirety. Try implementing that in a public school, and watch the teachers throw an epic tantrum. Every teacher has to sign an agreement that they are a practicing Catholic, and they understand that teaching anything antithetical to the faith is a fireable offense. They are at least a billion light-years ahead of public schools in the accountability department. How are people taken in by these idiotic talking points?

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Its already mandatory if a parent requests and I personally record about 90% of my days (everyday that I "lecture") and post them everyday.

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Awesome. This is a no brainier to me, and should be mandatory in every public school imo.

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Its the parents that don't want it.

mustang1234 said:

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BCSWguru said:

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why is it when these debates arise, nobody is asking what private schools do? what do their admins think about this? what makes their schools work so well?

and why will public school admins not address why people are fed up with their schools? the only thing they parrot is how bad it will be if kids start going to private schools and they lose their money.

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biggest differences between private and public schools are class size and more parent involvement. I would say that there are very few private school classrooms with more than 20 students in them. compare that to the 35-40 at may of the larger public schools

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Not totally true. At my kids 6A school, 3800, classes range from 18-22 maybe 25 tops. You are right about parental involvement. The higher that is, the better the schools and the better the students as well.

Professional Hitter said:

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I work as an assistant principal in a semi-rural area near our capital city. The biggest problem we face is discipline and FAPE. It is incredibly hard to remove the high flier discipline issues from school, and they are a massive drain on resources. If everyone is entitled to FAPE no matter what, it limits what a district will allow to be done from a discipline standpoint.

Expulsion should be much easier than it is. Kids can cuss out a teacher and be a general A-hole and I can, at most, suspend them three days because of FAPE.

Fix discipline and you fix public education. Or at least go a long ways towards fixing it.

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Yep.

At my wife's school, about 90% of the resources are burned on the same 10% or so of the kids with respect to discipline. And it's like that in most places, but the inability to address the issue only forces the schools to lower the bar and ultimately everybody suffers.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with classification of students by their abilities, nothing. In fact, every student would ultimately be better off if we could do such a thing, up to and including sending the handful of students that cause the overwhelming majority of the problems to a campus that is more suited for their skills - like a quasi boot camp type of place.

cevans_40 said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Rural school districts fight school choice because government jobs are usually the only remaining good paying jobs in rural areas. The more rural the area the more stratified the job market becomes. Either you're a land owner or an hourly laborer. Being a part of a school district (no matter how underpaid they say) is a pipe dream compared to getting back out and doing manual labor. Government jobs also become extremely nepotistic in these areas.

School choice would dismantle what little lower middle class jobs are available into even more lower paid, leaner jobs.

So when rural politicians fight school choice its because the school teacher and administration voting block is strong enough to keep a politician in check so the admin can keep their gravy train running.

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LOL. The 40k gravy train

This is some next level fantasy here. We recently had our Superintendent (you know, the highest paid person in the district) leave to take a private sector job making more money with infinitely fewer headaches.

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Our superintendent (5A district) makes $250k a year. The super in the town over (6A) also makes $250k a year.

I'd say that is well compensated.

Quote:

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In fact, every student would ultimately be better off if we could do such a thing, up to and including sending the handful of students that cause the overwhelming majority of the problems to a campus that is more suited for their skills - like a quasi boot camp type of place.

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I thought you were going to end with prison.

Wish I made that much.

There's a school like that in our district where continuous trouble makers go along with other kids with certain needs go to.

cevans_40 said:

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Professional Hitter said:

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I work as an assistant principal in a semi-rural area near our capital city. The biggest problem we face is discipline and FAPE. It is incredibly hard to remove the high flier discipline issues from school, and they are a massive drain on resources. If everyone is entitled to FAPE no matter what, it limits what a district will allow to be done from a discipline standpoint.

Expulsion should be much easier than it is. Kids can cuss out a teacher and be a general A-hole and I can, at most, suspend them three days because of FAPE.

Fix discipline and you fix public education. Or at least go a long ways towards fixing it.

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This is too easy. Instead we should blow up the whole damn system.

I really don't care much about school choice as I don't think it would have much impact on smaller, rural schools but I do wish the voters would fix the public school system.

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When the system doesn't work, yes. And we are far beyond the point where we can put enough bandaids on it to fix the problems. Hell, actually addresing and fixing the problems would essentially be blowing the system up as it is, because the width and depth of the changes that would need to be made are significant and, frankly, would be painful for a lot of people to do.

And again - it amazes me how people want competition, lower pricing, more innovation, better systems and products everywhere. Except schools, they will turn tail and vehemently fight for everything opposite when it comes to the school system.

I don't get it at all.

I want schools to have to work to keep students. I want them to look at how they can cut the fat, get better teachers, be better educators. I want them thinking like a for profit company where cutting unecessary costs because they don't necessarily have X amount of dollars coming in no matter what is always a priority. I want the goal to be to raise the standard, not constantly lower it because lowering it is the fat lazy slob easy button way. I have zero problems with there being financial incentives for teachers to go above and beyond, because that is how the rest of the world functions. Because that is how government should function, it damned defnitely should not be a place where apathy and inefficency rule the day because there is no reason to be alarmed if it does.

CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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In fact, every student would ultimately be better off if we could do such a thing, up to and including sending the handful of students that cause the overwhelming majority of the problems to a campus that is more suited for their skills - like a quasi boot camp type of place.

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I thought you were going to end with prison.

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Oh, rest assured - most of them end up there after the fact. The hard statistics bear that out.

I'm a firm believer that when kids are impressionable, if they are the trouble makers that they should be given a dose of the real world and spend a lot of time sweating, picking up trash on the highways and a bunch of other absolute sht jobs that they can expect to do in prison or in life after prison.