aggiehawg said:

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techno-ag said:

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Secolobo said:

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techno-ag said:

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Being on an island didn't help.

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...a tropical island surrounded by water...

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Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

Kenneth_2003 said:

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BG Knocc Out said:

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Seeing some of those cars on front street with all doors closed...I am hoping most of those were people fleeing to the waters and shutting their doors just in case, but a buddy was telling me about a vid he saw of a local woman (forgot her position, but it wasn't just some rando off the streets) claiming that the death toll is at least 1,000-1,500, maybe more, with many of those people basically being cremated by the extreme heat, leaving no remains for search parties, cadaver dogs etc. She claims a lot of those people were trapped and cremated in their cars because the files spread so fast. I am hoping that is not the case...but there did not appear to be many people who made it into the ocean.

Seems like if 1,000+ people were truly unaccounted for, in an area that small, we would be hearing so much more about it from the locals. That would be a very significant % of the local population, and a lot of tourists with families.

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Car fire does not burn hot and long enough to completely remove all evidence of a body. There's just too much water to evaporate away

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A typical car fire, or a car caught in an extraordinarily hot and prolonged mega fire? Place looks like it was firebombed. These aren't typical "car fires".

Quote:

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Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

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The hell there aren't units trained in disaster recovery and logistics. Have a friend who did just that for the Army for years until he retired awhile back. Back when Texas had a lot more hurricanse, we saw him all of the time, living in Austin, as he would stay with us while attached to Perry's Emergency HQ in Austin before he storms hit, during and then he'd go out in the field afterwards.

Also, don't you remember this guy?

Quote:

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On August 31, 2005, Honor was designated commander of Joint Task Force Katrina responsible for coordinating military relief efforts for Hurricane Katrina-affected areas across the Gulf Coast.

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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techno-ag said:

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Secolobo said:

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techno-ag said:

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Being on an island didn't help.

---

...a tropical island surrounded by water...

---

Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

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I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

Quote:

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Which would lead me to ask Governor Pissy Pants "WHY AREN'T YOU BRINGING IN WATER?"

You know who has water and not just cases of it, but great big potable, refillable, mobile containers full of it called "water buffalos"? That they take everywhere?

Marines.

There are around 10,000 Marines at Marine Corps Base Hawaii (Kaneohe). There another 12K+ active duty Navy sailors and 5500+ active duty Air Force personnel at Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. That's a lot of bodies with a lot of gear and, most importantly, expertise, who do not care if they are hot and tired.

You know who it seems that Governor hasn't requested come help Maui's people HIS people only an island away?

Any of those 27,000 troops who are sitting there, waiting for the call.
It's still just a couple of hundred National Guard assets, some Coasties and Army Corps of Engineers. That's it. That's Biden's big "Joint Task Force 5-0."

Quote:

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…The Hawaii National Guard has activated about 258 soldiers and airmen for duty that includes liaison support to the Hawaii Emergency Management Agency, command and control elements, and local law enforcement, Singh said.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has been assigned to remove debris and temporarily restore power, she said.

Singh said the Coast Guard has been working to minimize maritime environmental impacts, while remaining ready to respond to any new reports of individuals in the water.

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Via Hot Air

Quote:

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Finally, I just want to restress that Brigadier General Logan is here to discuss the DoD's response to the devastating wildfires in Maui, so please limit your questions to that topic. Without further ado, I'd like to introduce the Joint Task Force 5-0 Dual Status Commander, Army National Guard, Brigadier General Stephen F. Logan. Sir?

BRIGADIER GENERAL STEPHEN F. LOGAN: Hey, aloha, and good morning from Hawaii. This is Brigadier General Stephen Logan. Thank you for joining us this evening. We are deeply concerned about the situation in Maui and our thoughts and prayers are with those affected by the wildfires.
As the Joint Task Force 5-0 Commander, our primary mission is to support and augment the efforts of county, state, and federal authorities, ensuring that the people of Maui receive the necessary aid and assistance during this challenging time.

---

LINK

BG Knocc Out said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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BG Knocc Out said:

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Seeing some of those cars on front street with all doors closed...I am hoping most of those were people fleeing to the waters and shutting their doors just in case, but a buddy was telling me about a vid he saw of a local woman (forgot her position, but it wasn't just some rando off the streets) claiming that the death toll is at least 1,000-1,500, maybe more, with many of those people basically being cremated by the extreme heat, leaving no remains for search parties, cadaver dogs etc. She claims a lot of those people were trapped and cremated in their cars because the files spread so fast. I am hoping that is not the case...but there did not appear to be many people who made it into the ocean.

Seems like if 1,000+ people were truly unaccounted for, in an area that small, we would be hearing so much more about it from the locals. That would be a very significant % of the local population, and a lot of tourists with families.

---

Car fire does not burn hot and long enough to completely remove all evidence of a body. There's just too much water to evaporate away

---

A typical car fire, or a car caught in an extraordinarily hot and prolonged mega fire? Place looks like it was firebombed. These aren't typical "car fires".

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Yes. To consume a body beyond being identifiable as a body? To cremate a body? I think you need to look at what it takes to cremate a body. 1400+ degrees for 1.5-2 hours. Car fires do not burn for 2 hours, even when they aren't being fought. The fuel is consumed in less time than that, and certainly temperatures will not remain at those levels for that period of time. I doubt even an EV would burn at >1400*F for 1.5-2 hours. There simply is not enough fuel to sustain those temperatures for that amount of time.

Even assuming the fire could complete a "proper" cremation of the body the skeleton would still be present. The last thing the mortuary does before they return the "ashes" to a family following a cremation is to run the remains through a grinder.

Quote:

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Even assuming the fire could complete a "proper" cremation of the body the skeleton would still be present. The last thing the mortuary does before they return the "ashes" to a family following a cremation is to run the remains through a grinder.

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Wish they had done that back in the 80s when my first husband died. He wanted his ashes spread off a bridge in a particular spot. When I opened the urn, there were recognizable cervical bones on top.

aTmAg said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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techno-ag said:

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Secolobo said:

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techno-ag said:

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Being on an island didn't help.

---

...a tropical island surrounded by water...

---

Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

---

I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

---

What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

OH MY!

Kenneth_2003 said:

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aTmAg said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Secolobo said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Being on an island didn't help.

---

...a tropical island surrounded by water...

---

Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

---

I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

---

What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

---

I don't know the answers to your questions. But...

even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

Quote:

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even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

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At least keep the fuel depot for the marina on the shore protected/cooled down.

aTmAg said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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aTmAg said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Secolobo said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Being on an island didn't help.

---

...a tropical island surrounded by water...

---

Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

---

I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

---

What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

---

I don't know the answers to your questions. But...

even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

---

Assuming a flotilla of available craft. Assuming they could operate at a distance from shore that would render their nozzles effective.

The fire was advancing at speeds approaching 70mph according to reports I've heard. My guess top speed on a fire boat is probably 20knots. So conservatively speaking is advancing 1.5x the max speed of that craft. Fire boats are not built for offensive structural or wildland fire fighting.

I haven't looked at a map, much less a bathymetric chart, but my gut says the two assumptions above are invalid.

Kenneth_2003 said:

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aTmAg said:

---

Kenneth_2003 said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Secolobo said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Being on an island didn't help.

---

...a tropical island surrounded by water...

---

Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

---

I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

---

What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

---

I don't know the answers to your questions. But...

even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

---

Assuming a flotilla of available craft. Assuming they could operate at a distance from shore that would render their nozzles effective.

The fire was advancing at speeds approaching 70mph according to reports I've heard. My guess top speed on a fire boat is poetically 20knots. So conservatively soaking is advancing 1.5x the max speed of that craft. Fire boats are not built for offensive structural or wildland fire fighting.

I haven't looked at a map, much less a bathymetric chart, but my gut says the two assumptions above are invalid.

---

I'm talking about pre-soaking areas. I just looked up that evacuations started at 6:37am and that they were declared contained at 8:30pm. It seems like they could have helped. At least it was worth a shot. Like even if they were called, and couldn't reach, then it's better than not calling at all.

Quote:

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Kahului is the retail center for Maui residents, with several major stores and malls (including department stores in Queen Kaahumanu Center). Other large stores are located in Lahaina - including Lahaina Cannery Mall, Happy Valley area of Wailuku, Maui Mall, Maui Market Place (both also located in Kahului), as well as The Shops at Wailea.

Kahului is not commonly considered a tourist destination. Points of interest in Kahului include Alexander and Baldwin Sugar Museum in Pu'unene, located nearby; Kanaha Beach County Park; Kanaha Pond State Wildlife Sanctuary; Maui Nui Botanical Gardens; Maui Arts and Cultural Center; Tasaka Guri-Guri - famous for its "guri-guri" frozen dessert.

As facilities, Port Kahului features 1 Ro-Ro ramp, 1 Loading Dock, Fueling Dock (cargo terminal), dedicated Cruise Ship Dock. Among the largest cruise companies visiting Kahului are Carnival and NCL-Norwegian. Containership services are provided by Pasha Hawaii - a company specializing in Mainland USA-Hawaii shipping (TEU-containers, vehicle, and oversized cargo), also providing integrated transportation and storage-logistics services. Another major company presented at Port Kahului is Matson Navigation Company (established in 1882) which also provides top-quality ocean shipping services.

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LINK

aTmAg said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Kenneth_2003 said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Secolobo said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Being on an island didn't help.

---

...a tropical island surrounded by water...

---

Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

---

I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

---

What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

---

I don't know the answers to your questions. But...

even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

---

Assuming a flotilla of available craft. Assuming they could operate at a distance from shore that would render their nozzles effective.

The fire was advancing at speeds approaching 70mph according to reports I've heard. My guess top speed on a fire boat is poetically 20knots. So conservatively soaking is advancing 1.5x the max speed of that craft. Fire boats are not built for offensive structural or wildland fire fighting.

I haven't looked at a map, much less a bathymetric chart, but my gut says the two assumptions above are invalid.

---

I'm talking about pre-soaking areas. I just looked up that evacuations started at 6:37am and that they were declared contained at 8:30pm. It seems like they could have helped. At least it was worth a shot. Like even if they were called, and couldn't reach, then it's better than not calling at all.

---

Honestly, pre-soaking or laying down wet lines doesn't help. I've tried. It didn't do S***. ******ant does help, but I'm only aware of that being able to be applied by aerial methods. Trying to wet the ground or vegetation ahead of a fire doesn't do much. It'll dry out, especially in those strong dry winds, well ahead of the fire arriving.

If all you have is wet stuff, it's got to be put ON the red stuff.

Man I get what you're trying to say. It breaks everyone's heart to see this devastation. Unfortunately on the wildland urban interface the time to save structures is in pre-planning, preparation, and prevention efforts before the fire starts. These are, unfortunately hard learned lessons that communities nationwide learn time and time again, frequently the hard way and not from advice or even experience of others.

I get the idea, thinking we've got a firetruck or a fire boat, we've got hoses, we've got pumps, we've got nozzles, lets go help. But that's not how it works. You can't self dispatch, and you can't freelance.

aTmAg said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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aTmAg said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Secolobo said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

Being on an island didn't help.

---

...a tropical island surrounded by water...

---

Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

---

There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

---

Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

---

I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

---

What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

---

I don't know the answers to your questions. But...

even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

---

Even if the Navy had assets like that, this thing was long over before they could be deployed from Oahu. There's no Navy assets to speak of on Maui, It takes close to 3 hours to get there from Oahu, and that's just travel time. The boats like that, if there are any there, aren't exactly waiting with crews on alert 24 hours a day just waiting for the order to 'SCRAMBLE!!!'

As big of a tourist area as Maui is, it is a small island with limited natural resources. It has a small electric grid, and probably no natural gas lines to power anything needed to fight the fires, and or get any real communications.

Hindsight will make them more prepared for things like this in the future, but they're not going to make massive investments in infrasructure.

Quote:

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I get the idea, thinking we've got a firetruck or a fire boat, we've got hoses, we've got pumps, we've got nozzles, lets go help. But that's not how it works. You can't self dispatch, and you can't freelance.

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Having met Maui firefighters at their station, they would have to wash off the baby and cocoa oil before they could deploy anyway. Undertrained and underequipped. Hired solely because they looked good on calendars.

How many high rises on Maui? A crap ton, yet none of them, were in uniform, nor had they trained for high angle rescue. Their job in case of a fire was just to bag the bodies, apparently. That 30 minute conversation was just freakin' bizarre. They were clueless.

GeorgiAg said:

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Mrs. O'Leary's Cow strikes again!

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Mrs. Opunui's cow.

rwtxag83 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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aTmAg said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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techno-ag said:

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Secolobo said:

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techno-ag said:

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Being on an island didn't help.

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...a tropical island surrounded by water...

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Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

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There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

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Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

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I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

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What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

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I don't know the answers to your questions. But...

even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

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Even if the Navy had assets like that, this thing was long over before they could be deployed from Oahu. There's no Navy assets to speak of on Maui, It takes close to 3 hours to get there from Oahu, and that's just travel time. The boats like that, if there are any there, aren't exactly waiting with crews on alert 24 hours a day just waiting for the order to 'SCRAMBLE!!!'

As big of a tourist area as Maui is, it is a small island with limited natural resources. It has a small electric grid, and probably no natural gas lines to power anything needed to fight the fires, and or get any real communications.

Hindsight will make them more prepared for things like this in the future, but they're not going to make massive investments in infrasructure.

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My point exactly. When comparing this to Chicago, it's an island. Limited resources and hard to get to. A whole different animal.

annie88 said:

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Two completely different times in US history, I wonder how they'll compare in the end. Right now looks like the Maui fire will be worse.


Chicago Fire

The fire killed approximately 300 people, over 17,000 structures, and left more than 100,000 residents homeless.

$222 million (1871 USD)
(approx. $5.4 billion in 2022)

Burned area
2,112 acres (8.55 km2)


Maui Fire

The fire so far has killed approximately 114 people with 850 displaced, 20 missing, over 2,200 structures

Burned area
At least 3,200 acres (12.94 km2)

Property damage
$5.5B

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I'll see your Chicago fire and raise you the deadliest fire in US history:

In a summer of historic wildfires, the Peshtigo Fire remains deadliest in U.S. history

https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/2023/08/14/in-a-summer-of-historic-wildfires-the-peshtigo-fire-remains-deadliest/70587715007/

Kenneth_2003 said:

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BG Knocc Out said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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BG Knocc Out said:

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Seeing some of those cars on front street with all doors closed...I am hoping most of those were people fleeing to the waters and shutting their doors just in case, but a buddy was telling me about a vid he saw of a local woman (forgot her position, but it wasn't just some rando off the streets) claiming that the death toll is at least 1,000-1,500, maybe more, with many of those people basically being cremated by the extreme heat, leaving no remains for search parties, cadaver dogs etc. She claims a lot of those people were trapped and cremated in their cars because the files spread so fast. I am hoping that is not the case...but there did not appear to be many people who made it into the ocean.

Seems like if 1,000+ people were truly unaccounted for, in an area that small, we would be hearing so much more about it from the locals. That would be a very significant % of the local population, and a lot of tourists with families.

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Car fire does not burn hot and long enough to completely remove all evidence of a body. There's just too much water to evaporate away

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A typical car fire, or a car caught in an extraordinarily hot and prolonged mega fire? Place looks like it was firebombed. These aren't typical "car fires".

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Yes. To consume a body beyond being identifiable as a body? To cremate a body? I think you need to look at what it takes to cremate a body. 1400+ degrees for 1.5-2 hours. Car fires do not burn for 2 hours, even when they aren't being fought. The fuel is consumed in less time than that, and certainly temperatures will not remain at those levels for that period of time. I doubt even an EV would burn at >1400*F for 1.5-2 hours. There simply is not enough fuel to sustain those temperatures for that amount of time.

Even assuming the fire could complete a "proper" cremation of the body the skeleton would still be present. The last thing the mortuary does before they return the "ashes" to a family following a cremation is to run the remains through a grinder.

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Good info, thanks

agz win said:

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Did Chicago have gale force winds too like Maui did that day or did they have to deal with some other act of God?

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Before this, I didn't realize there were other big fires during the Chicago fire. There were other fires that day that killed hundreds of people. Weather….er…climate played a big role.


https://www.weather.gov/grb/peshtigofire2

Burrus86 said:

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techno-ag said:

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Being on an island didn't help.

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Having Joe Biden for President did not help.

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Stop. Biden is a moron but the fire had nothing to do with him.
If Trump was still President, the fire would have still happened just like it did.

Of course the president isn't responsible for preventing wildfires. But can you say that their respective disaster responses would have both been so inadequate? The fires happened two weeks ago and Biden just now made a trip out there...

agent-maroon said:

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Of course the president isn't responsible for preventing wildfires. But can you say that their respective disaster responses would have been so inadequate? The fires happened two weeks ago and Biden just now made a trip out there...

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He would have been out there in 2 days if this were Ukraine.

Here's the unofficial list of the missing and the dead and an archival link to a now deleted reddit post with allegedly a first hand account of a closed door government meeting.

/edit: the archival link is really bogged down so here is the entire text:

Quote:

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What your not hearing from our local government

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Quote:

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I just got out of a meeting where I was informed by someone in the Mayors office about developments that are being kept from the public. I am not a conspiracy theorist and I don't want to make trouble but here's what I've heard.

The amount of fatalities is expected to be more than 500 but less than 1000.

Many of the fatalities will be children who were at home because they canceled school. Parents worked and were not there to evacuate the children. Kids had no idea they needed to leave and by the time they noticed their homes or apartments were on fire, it was too late.

The government is worried about how we will react when we learn that the fire department left the fire earlier in the day and claimed it was 100% contained knowing that the winds were expected to be 70mph by the afternoon. This is against all fire control protocols. The fire department should not have left the original fire unattended. They are scared that the public calls for accountability will be more than they can control and protests and riots will occur.

They plan to lock down Lahaina for several months. It will take months to clean up the hazardous and environmental contamination. They won't have enough housing for All the displaced.
There were 2,000 unaccounted for this morning. They have a list where they are trying to keep track. They found 700 today. But there are still 1300 missing.

They are very worried that the community is going to freak out when they find out how not a single fire truck responded to the fires. The emergency sirens were not activated (hurricane sirens) and loss of life could have been kept down by better emergency management which utterly failed.

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agent-maroon said:

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Of course the president isn't responsible for preventing wildfires. But can you say that their respective disaster responses would have been so inadequate? The fires happened two weeks ago and Biden just now made a trip out there...

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And what difference would it have made if Biden had visited earlier? I'm not one to play this game.

The Maui fire was awful. But s**t happens and sometimes there's nothing anyone can do about it.

AggieUSMC said:

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Burrus86 said:

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techno-ag said:

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Being on an island didn't help.

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Having Joe Biden for President did not help.

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Stop. Biden is a moron but the fire had nothing to do with him.
If Trump was still President, the fire would have still happened just like it did.

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No comment

oldcrow91 said:

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agz win said:

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Did Chicago have gale force winds too like Maui did that day or did they have to deal with some other act of God?

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Before this, I didn't realize there were other big fires during the Chicago fire. There were other fires that day that killed hundreds of people. Weather….er…climate played a big role.


https://www.weather.gov/grb/peshtigofire2

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PBS has a documentary called "The Big Burn" about fires in the West in 1910.
3M acres burned in two days. A multi-year drought and some uncommon weather came
together. Yesterday was the anniversary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_1910

aTmAg said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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aTmAg said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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techno-ag said:

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Secolobo said:

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techno-ag said:

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Being on an island didn't help.

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...a tropical island surrounded by water...

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Which they couldn't access easily.

If you've spent any time there you know how difficult moving resources is. One of the reasons everything is more expensive is almost every thing has to be flown in. And Maui isn't even the main island.

At least in Chicago people could get there easily to help and send supplies.

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There are what? A quarter of a million troops stationed in Hawaii? With ships, helicopters, planes, etc? And they can't get there? 45 minutes away by air?

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Exactly what are those troops supposed to do? The context of the original quote here is that being on an island did not help the initial response to the fire. The reply was that it was surrounded by water. The response to that was that the water was not readily accessible to fight the fire.

So what were all of those non-firefighting troops supposed to do? Form a bucket chain or something? It's already been established multiple times that firefighting aircraft couldn't operate because of the high winds, and the fires were miles inland away from the ocean, so, again, in the context of what you're responding to, exactly what were those troops supposed to be doing?

Hell, what would they even do now? They're not exactly trained for disaster recovery. What kind of temporary shelters, nonperishable food, or other equipment are they going to be able to bring in at the drop of a hat? Do you really want tens of thousands of soldiers or seamen in a disaster area sucking up resources while looking for a purpose?

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I'm not a boat-fireologist, but don't they have these in the navy?

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What's their draft? Those boats sure as heck can't get close to a beach and roll around in the surf. Lets assume the draft is 6 ft. Then they are going to need some minimum depth of clear water below the pump intake so they aren't sucking sand through the pumps and destroying them. Now look at those fire streams. They are 100% ineffective beyond one or two boat lengths. They could get a little further with a lower angle, but there are optimal attack angles for fire streams and and master stream devices and it's between 35-45 degrees BEFORE you look at impact from wind, which was howling that day (recall the fire was fed by winds from a passing typhoon).

Short answer those boats, if they exist nearby would be totally useless. The ONLY shore protection a fire boat could provide would be ~100 yards or so from a harbor or pier. They couldn't go anywhere near a beach or shallow water.

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I don't know the answers to your questions. But...

even if they could only spray down the first row of houses, why not do so? Why sit in a dock?

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I was in Lahaina last December. The reefs and shoreline are not deep enough for those boats to get close enough to put out that first row of houses. We'd go from 3-4' to less than a foot 40-50 yards off shore b/c of the coral reefs.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Kahului is the retail center for Maui residents, with several major stores and malls (including department stores in Queen Kaahumanu Center). Other large stores are located in Lahaina - including Lahaina Cannery Mall, Happy Valley area of Wailuku, Maui Mall, Maui Market Place (both also located in Kahului), as well as The Shops at Wailea.

Kahului is not commonly considered a tourist destination. Points of interest in Kahului include Alexander and Baldwin Sugar Museum in Pu'unene, located nearby; Kanaha Beach County Park; Kanaha Pond State Wildlife Sanctuary; Maui Nui Botanical Gardens; Maui Arts and Cultural Center; Tasaka Guri-Guri - famous for its "guri-guri" frozen dessert.

As facilities, Port Kahului features 1 Ro-Ro ramp, 1 Loading Dock, Fueling Dock (cargo terminal), dedicated Cruise Ship Dock. Among the largest cruise companies visiting Kahului are Carnival and NCL-Norwegian. Containership services are provided by Pasha Hawaii - a company specializing in Mainland USA-Hawaii shipping (TEU-containers, vehicle, and oversized cargo), also providing integrated transportation and storage-logistics services. Another major company presented at Port Kahului is Matson Navigation Company (established in 1882) which also provides top-quality ocean shipping services.

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LINK

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That's on the opposite side of the Island from Lahaina.

There is one small harbor near Lahaina. Maybe one of those fire boats could get in a spray some water onto shore. It would be a water pistol on a raging house fire.

I get what you all are asking, but the fire boats are designed to fight fires on the open water, not a shallow shoreline.

There was little hope to stop such a fire with the built up fuel and winds of that magnitude. The only hope was to flee out of its path or reach the ocean. Given the speed, that would take sufficient warning time and some knowledge of where to go to get out of the path.

Many of these people were probably doomed once the fire got huge and moving and too close.

MouthBQ98 said:

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There was little hope to stop such a fire with the built up fuel and winds of that magnitude. The only hope was to flee out of its path or reach the ocean. Given the speed, that would take sufficient warning time and some knowledge of where to go to get out of the path.

Many of these people were probably doomed once the fire got huge and moving and too close.

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yes, and evacuation routes were blocked b/c of downed power lines and the fire itself. Looking at where we stayed last December, I'm not sure my wife and I would have been able to get out besides going into the ocean in front of our hotel.

Megyn Kelly had a gentleman on her show that was posted to YouTube and podcasts yesterday.

He mentioned a fire in (from memory driving this morning) in 2019. Lessons learned were need for better infrastructure improvement, sparks have been issues in the past during wind events. They (the power company) made plans but did NOTHING in regards to prevention. Instead all resources were focused on expanding renewable and green generation with zero focus or resources devoted to transmission distribution.