God, Hedge threads suck. So much stupid in one place.

Ag with kids said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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eric76 said:

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We used to be able to show up for airline travel pretty much just before boarding.

Or even during boarding. I had a flight one Sunday morning to New Orleans. I arrived at the airport counter to get my ticket, ran through the terminal to the gate carrying my duffel bag, and boarded. They started closing the door immediately after I boarded and started taxiing withing a couple of minutes after I sat down.

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Yeah, the good old days before post-9/11 security theater.

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If you start doing huge amounts of travel via rail, you'll end up having some subset of this type of security needed at some time. All it takes is a terrorist attack on an HSR train going from Houston to DFW at 250 mph and 500 people die and you're going to get the full TSA treatment going forward.

Rail has much less security because it hasn't been attacked yet. Hell, there were numerous hijackings and nothing happened. But, after 9/11, ANYTHING that happened meant TSA cracked down more (remember not taking off your shoes).

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OKC proved that one jackhole and a Ryder truck can kill hundreds.

High Speed Rail is going to need East Germany Berlin Wall level security for the length of the track.

frenchtoast said:

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Highways are like gigantic money printing machines. It boggle my mind that we aren't building more.

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Remember when Obama was talking about shovel ready jobs?

Why hasn't any of our Presidential leadership in the past decade proposed an Interstate Highway System 2.0.

I used to ride the light rail in Denver from Littleton to Union Station to take my kids to Rockies games at Coors Field.

Homeless on the train was the main reason we quit riding it and instead gladly drove 20 miles and paid $20 to park.

OverSeas AG said:

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The euro/japan comparisons are always great: we pay for most of their defense, in turn they spend their money on social services and infrastructure.

Also whose land are you going to use to make this happen?

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Had this exact conversation with an American colleague during a business trip to Tokyo. He was enamored with how modern everything was.

I reminded him that we spend $700B on Defense every year and they spend next to nothing. I reckon we could do some remodeling around the USA with an extra $700B to spend on infrastructure.

C@LAg said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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frenchtoast said:

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Highways are like gigantic money printing machines. It boggle my mind that we aren't building more.

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Remember when Obama was talking about shovel ready jobs?

Why hasn't any of our Presidential leadership in the past decade proposed an Interstate Highway System 2.0.

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how about we just fix the one we have.

potholes for days, bridge infrastructure that is crumbling, etc

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Sounds like a Washington problem.

But, sure repairs are good but Eisenhower hasn't been President for a minute. Given the fact our population has gone from 200M to 330M during the past 50 years, might be time to reinvest in some highway infrastructure.

eric76 said:

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Also, when I was in the Boy Scouts, we did a 50 mile hike in the middle of the summer with no air conditioning and no shade.

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50 mile hike?

20 miles was the longest one you needed for hiking merit badge which I did in the desert in Saudi Arabia.

Or are you talking about Philmont which I did in August '87.

policywonk98 said:

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Japan's 145,000 square miles is only 33% habitable.

So roughly 50,000 square miles has 125 million people.

Texas is about 250,000 sq miles of mostly habitable land with 29 million.

If you isolate to the Texas Triangle that is closer to Japan at 60k square miles. This area does hold about 20 million Texans. But that's still less than 105 million people with 10,000 sq miles more land compared to Japans habitable area.

If we reached the level of density that it would take for high speed rail to make sense even in the Triangle, I would no longer live here . So you could have whatever you want and pay for it, I'll be in the middle of Montana or Wyoming somewhere. At that point the people living in the Triangle would dictate everything for Texas. Have no interest living in that nightmare. It's bad enough already.

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Was having the high speed rail pipe dream discussion with some Millennials last weekend.

None of them actually wanted to know how it works in Japan, especially Tokyo where I have the most experience.

I explained that the first thing you need to know is Tokyo has 4 levels of trains that I'm aware of. Local trains, regional trains, urban trains, long distance trains.

And the cost of a Shinkansen Nozomi Green Car ticket between Tokyo and Osaka is about what you're going to pay to fly there anyway.

But, when you take this mythical train from Houston to Dallas, at the same cost as an airline flight, when you get to Dallas, there aren't the other 3 levels of train to take you from the train station to your destination.

Ulysses90 said:

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Hyper Rail doesn't have sidings where one train can pass to let another one go in the opposite direction. There is one train on the northbound rail at a time and one on the south end. They don't stop except at their destination to conserve energy.

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In Japan, they have two tracks so you've got one train in each direction running every 15-20 minutes throughout the day.

When two 12 car trains pass each other, they shake violently for about 3 seconds. It's a trippy experience.

HollywoodBQ said:

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eric76 said:

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Also, when I was in the Boy Scouts, we did a 50 mile hike in the middle of the summer with no air conditioning and no shade.

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50 mile hike?

20 miles was the longest one you needed for hiking merit badge which I did in the desert in Saudi Arabia.

Or are you talking about Philmont which I did in August '87.

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They used to have a 50 mile merit badge or something similar. We hiked from Gruver to Pringle, camped overnight, and then from Pringle to Lake Meredith.

Somehow, hiking in the ditch alongside the highway was a bit of a letdown, but that's the best we knew how to do. In retrospect, if we could have gotten permission to hike along the Canadian River from east of Stinnett across where T Boone Pickens later built his house and over to near Canadian would have been a hike to remember, especially if it went past the site of both Battles of Adobe Walls.

That said, we hiked a ditch for 50 miles in the summertime. I guess that made us "ditch hikers".

Not gay, so I don't want to ride a choo choo train to Dallas.

DarkBrandon01 said:

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BigRobSA said:

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1) liberal money pit
2) riders would need a form of transport at the end point
3) stupid
4) money pit, a liberal one

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5) I fell for big auto propaganda

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Yep, as soon as we get that high speed rail between Dallas and Houston, people won't need their cars anymore.

Lololololololol

At this point one side is simply trolling their argument.

C@LAg said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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frenchtoast said:

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Highways are like gigantic money printing machines. It boggle my mind that we aren't building more.

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Remember when Obama was talking about shovel ready jobs?

Why hasn't any of our Presidential leadership in the past decade proposed an Interstate Highway System 2.0.

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how about we just fix the one we have.

potholes for days, bridge infrastructure that is crumbling, etc

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Wait, I thought we were Building Back Better? Was that just a fib by Joe and his clown show Admin?

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Rail isn't profitable in Europe

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How much profit does the highway system make?

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You mean other than the trillions of dollars of interstate commerce it facilitates? None, I guess?

ontherocks said:

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Speed trains are awesome and much cheaper than flights. Not into the politics of it but we are far behind the rest of the world when it comes to our public transit.

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Without commenting on the potential grift or land grabs involved in construction, I agree. I've used them extensively in Europe- or at least trains in general- and find them to be a better travel experience than flying. Much less security hassle from TSA and flight attendants, not as cramped as airplanes, and I can work uninterrupted from the time I board.

Houstonag said:

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Rail is good. Do it right but the tinker toys is a democrat disaster and maintenance and operation sink hole. I know the subject well.

Just consider this my freinds. Travel I 10 and I 45 and notice the truck travel that is tearing up our highways requiring many funds to upgrade, expand and repair.

Rail is the 2nd least expensive form of goods transportation. Airlines have lobbied hard against passenger rail. Now see where we are.

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You just made the argument for more freight rail, not passenger rail. HSR and freight do not use the same tracks, so building HSR will do nothing to get trucks off the highways.

Something people don't realize is that while the US passenger rail system is almost non-existent, we have the best freight rail system in the world, and there isn't even a close second. This is the way it should be give our lack of population density.

TriAg2010 said:

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eric76 said:

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To build a hyper rail, they would undoubtedly take many square miles of land away from its owners via eminent domain for the benefit of some private company. If they would do it by engaging in honest capitalist transactions with the landowners and doing it with their own money, then that would be fine. But you can bet that is not the way it goes.

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Condemning land for an intercity train - whether private or publicly funded - would be a completely reasonable use of eminent domain under our system of property rights.

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Not really.

Historically, the basis for allowing private companies to exercise the power of eminent domain is common carrier status. Whether it's a train, or a pipeline, the idea is that although some of your land might be taken to build the project, you will benefit from proximity to it because it will be a common carrier that will have to take your business. If you build a factory next to a freight rail line, they have to provide you service if you meet the rules for a siding and such. However, HSR that passes through your property stops for nothing; it doesn't increase the value of your remaining property, it diminishes it.

Want a high speed train? Fine. Just do it with 100% private funding . I won't be investing .

HollywoodBQ said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Kvetch said:

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Neither Houston nor Dallas are walkable in any capacity, and a high-speed train doesn't solve that problem.

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True: intracity travel != intercity travel.

But you are acknowledging that the lack of walkability is a problem to be solved, right?

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Los Angeles is very walkable but...

Nobody Walks in LA

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LOL. Made me think of the film LA Story when Steve Martin gets in his car, the traveling music starts, and he drives... NEXT DOOR, stops and gets out. From 1991.

HollywoodBQ said:

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I used to ride the light rail in Denver from Littleton to Union Station to take my kids to Rockies games at Coors Field.

Homeless on the train was the main reason we quit riding it and instead gladly drove 20 miles and paid $20 to park.

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Marvin said:

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ontherocks said:

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Speed trains are awesome and much cheaper than flights. Not into the politics of it but we are far behind the rest of the world when it comes to our public transit.

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Without commenting on the potential grift or land grabs involved in construction, I agree. I've used them extensively in Europe- or at least trains in general- and find them to be a better travel experience than flying. Much less security hassle from TSA and flight attendants, not as cramped as airplanes, and I can work uninterrupted from the time I board.

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you've obviously never been on a crowded train. Took a train in the UK right at Christmas time. Every seat was booked and it was just as cramped and uncomfortable as a southwest flight. But it also took 30 minutes into the ride just to get our luggage stowed and actually get to our seats.

HollywoodBQ said:

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frenchtoast said:

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Highways are like gigantic money printing machines. It boggle my mind that we aren't building more.

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Remember when Obama was talking about shovel ready jobs?

Why hasn't any of our Presidential leadership in the past decade proposed an Interstate Highway System 2.0.

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"Shovel-ready" meant all the people who could die due to global warming and climate change, therefore we can build no more roads.

HollywoodBQ said:

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policywonk98 said:

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Japan's 145,000 square miles is only 33% habitable.

So roughly 50,000 square miles has 125 million people.

Texas is about 250,000 sq miles of mostly habitable land with 29 million.

If you isolate to the Texas Triangle that is closer to Japan at 60k square miles. This area does hold about 20 million Texans. But that's still less than 105 million people with 10,000 sq miles more land compared to Japans habitable area.

If we reached the level of density that it would take for high speed rail to make sense even in the Triangle, I would no longer live here . So you could have whatever you want and pay for it, I'll be in the middle of Montana or Wyoming somewhere. At that point the people living in the Triangle would dictate everything for Texas. Have no interest living in that nightmare. It's bad enough already.

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Was having the high speed rail pipe dream discussion with some Millennials last weekend.

None of them actually wanted to know how it works in Japan, especially Tokyo where I have the most experience.

I explained that the first thing you need to know is Tokyo has 4 levels of trains that I'm aware of. Local trains, regional trains, urban trains, long distance trains.

And the cost of a Shinkansen Nozomi Green Car ticket between Tokyo and Osaka is about what you're going to pay to fly there anyway.

But, when you take this mythical train from Houston to Dallas, at the same cost as an airline flight, when you get to Dallas, there aren't the other 3 levels of train to take you from the train station to your destination.

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Oh yeah...we forgot to mention...there's just this ONE LITTLE EXTRA THING we're gonna need.../HSR proponents

Tony Franklins Other Shoe said:

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C@LAg said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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frenchtoast said:

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Highways are like gigantic money printing machines. It boggle my mind that we aren't building more.

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Remember when Obama was talking about shovel ready jobs?

Why hasn't any of our Presidential leadership in the past decade proposed an Interstate Highway System 2.0.

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how about we just fix the one we have.

potholes for days, bridge infrastructure that is crumbling, etc

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Wait, I thought we were Building Back Better? Was that just a fib by Joe and his clown show Admin?

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I think he forgot to mention that the Back we're building to is Back to the 1800s...

I'm intrigued by the hyperloop concept for freight. If the system is big enough for shipping containers, it would be big enough for cars, too. (Use the freight as proof of concept and to support initial infrastructure costs.)

Drive your car to station in dallas.
Arrive in College Station 20 minutes later.
Drive out of station to Kyle Field.

Dallas to Austin in 25 minutes. San Antonio in 35 minutes. Houston in 35.

You have your car so that fixes the "last mile" problem.

Working out kinks with shipping containers is key.

But it's unlikely to materialize in my lifetime.

Stupe said:

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Bexar Ag said:

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I mean you would need transportation if you flew in too… Uber or rent a car when you get to the city

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Airlines don't need to steal private land in order to operate.

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Be careful how you use the word "steal". That implies taking the land without compensation. "Forced sale" and "theft" are not the same thing.

Burdizzo said:

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Stupe said:

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Bexar Ag said:

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I mean you would need transportation if you flew in too… Uber or rent a car when you get to the city

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Airlines don't need to steal private land in order to operate.

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Be careful how you use the word "steal". That implies taking the land without compensation. "Forced sale" and "theft" are not the same thing.

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hbkyle said:

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I'm intrigued by the hyperloop concept for freight. If the system is big enough for shipping containers, it would be big enough for cars, too. (Use the freight as proof of concept and to support initial infrastructure costs.)

Drive your car to station in dallas.
Arrive in College Station 20 minutes later.
Drive out of station to Kyle Field.

Dallas to Austin in 25 minutes. San Antonio in 35 minutes. Houston in 35.

You have your car so that fixes the "last mile" problem.

Working out kinks with shipping containers is key.

But it's unlikely to materialize in my lifetime.

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I think you are leaving out a lot of steps.

As Policywonk laid out earlier, there are density requirements that must be met in order for HSR to make sense.

Looking at Tiawan, HSR travels from Taipei to Taichung to Kaoshiung (north to south) with a number of stops interspersing. Almost every station has connection to either TRA train lines, Metro systems, or public shuttles.

In Spain for example, their HSR could be considered more of a comparable to what Texas would look like, with one major exception. Take Madrid to Barcelona for example. Both cities have a fully fleshed out Metro system to feed population to the HSR terminals. Those consist of Metro Rail, Bus & Tram systems fully integrated throughout the cities.

Dallas would be the closest comparable, but a close look at the DART map shows that much of the bus systems have 15-30 minute frequency schedules, which is not conducive to feeding much of the population through the system. And still, a very large percentage of Dallas and surrounding cities have no coverage at all. Houston and Austin are absolute jokes with regard to public transit. I live in Lakeway. No service. All along 620. Dell Diamond. No Service. It goes on and on.

Bottom line - D/FW, Houston and Austin are still much too geograpically spread out to justify a dedicated rail line between the cities, as there is no acceptable transit infrastructure to get you where you want to go once you get to your desired destination.

jrdaustin said:

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As Policywonk laid out earlier, there are density requirements that must be met in order for HSR to make sense.

Looking at Tiawan, HSR travels from Taipei to Taichung to Kaoshiung (north to south) with a number of stops interspersing. Almost every station has connection to either TRA train lines, Metro systems, or public shuttles.

In Spain for example, their HSR could be considered more of a comparable to what Texas would look like, with one major exception. Take Madrid to Barcelona for example. Both cities have a fully fleshed out Metro system to feed population to the HSR terminals. Those consist of Metro Rail, Bus & Tram systems fully integrated throughout the cities.

Dallas would be the closest comparable, but a close look at the DART map shows that much of the bus systems have 15-30 minute frequency schedules, which is not conducive to feeding much of the population through the system. And still, a very large percentage of Dallas and surrounding cities have no coverage at all. Houston and Austin are absolute jokes with regard to public transit. I live in Lakeway. No service. All along 620. Dell Diamond. No Service. It goes on and on.

Bottom line - D/FW, Houston and Austin are still much too geograpically spread out to justify a dedicated rail line between the cities, as there is no acceptable transit infrastructure to get you where you want to go once you get to your desired destination.

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I've taken Amtrak from Boston to Portland ME. On the Boston side I rode Mass Transit to get to and from Amtrak. On the Portland side, I took an Uber.

Bexar Ag said:

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Except you're still subject to traffic unlike a train

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If you take a train to Dallas or Houston, you will still be subject to traffic once you get there outside of the low possibility that your final destination is close to the train station.