A compromise for gun control.

13,040 Views | 247 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by eric76
GeorgiAg
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F2Aggie said:

GeorgiAg said:

We have decided that a few dead people everyday is worth it so we can have guns. And even if you banned guns tomorrow, it would take years to implement.


The federal government banned illegal drugs, and is supposed to be protecting our borders.
How is that going for us?
What leads you to believe they can effectively enforce gun control laws? Heck, half of the country (and half of Congress) do not want to enforce immigration laws.


This is a research paper from the DOJ:

Quote:

The 1996-1997 NFA in Australia introduced strict gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996 where 35 people were killed. Using a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest that it had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides. In addition, there does not appear to be any substitution effects, specifically that reduced access to firearms may have let those bent on committing homicide or suicide to use alternative methods. Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public's fears, the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearms deaths. The article includes a section which provides a brief review of the literature on the effects of the NFA; a section which introduces the time-series data on homicides and suicides used for the empirical analysis, a section which discusses the econometric model and issues regarding model selection, and a section which discusses the structural break tests employed along with the results when used to analyze data. Tables, references
BANNING GUNS DOES NOT LEAD TO DECREASED HOMICIDES OR SUICIDES

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/australian-firearms-buyback-and-its-effect-gun-deaths
Slicer97
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?


If a person is mentally ill to the point it is unsafe for society for them to possess a firearm, that person should not be able to move about freely in society. They should be intitutionalized.
Pinche Guero
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?
Its already illegal for the mentally ill to purchase a gun. Laws on gun control only affect people that follow the law.
Wait, you said "shall not be infringed". That seems to be an all-or-nothing statement on the part of the Constitution.
Thats the point, the laws put into place that have already eroded this right do nothing to slow down gun violence. They only make it harder for law abiding citizens to defend themselves.
GeorgiAg
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This is the gun control argument in a nutshell. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS:

Goro Majima
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No compromise. Ever.
Definitely Not A Cop
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one safe place said:

Definitely Not A Cop said:

I think a great compromise would be requiring 18 months of military service out of HS. Everyone goes through the military evaluation, everyone gets trained in firearms. You still have the only people who are actually going to the frontlines as grunts are the people who were already signing up to do that. Every other kid is put into non-combat roles. They learn discipline, leadership qualities and trade skills like logistics, accounting, etc.

Then everyone who passes the mental eval gets out with a license to operate firearms all the way up to automatic weapons.
Just how in the polecat hell are we going to pay for this? Where do you plan to house them all? And pay for constructing the housing? Transporting them? Feeding them? Medical costs? Training costs?

It would change nothing. People would still be mentally ill and if they go off the deep end after the mental evaluation, it wouldn't be known about. People would still want to steal. People would still get into conflicts and shoot others. Drugs and gangs and the violence associated with them would still exist.


Disagree. Requiring all 18-19.5 year olds to join the military will immediately cause a big downtrend in crime, as you have the majority of the largest demographic of offenders off the street already and being taught discipline (sometimes for the first time in these people's lives). Obviously you will have some people continue to break laws and not follow the rules. Now you try those people in a military court, not one with a Soros DA who is going to immediately let them back out onto a street to continue to commit crimes. I would expect 2-3 years of issues, then a big reduction in rule breakers after people get used to the idea and the consequences of not following.

I think you would drastically be able to reduce the prison population over 10 years, and you could then convert unused prisons to military bases as you consolidate.

The reduced policing costs, increased productivity from people learning trade skills instead of being housed in a prison for the remainder of their lives would offset some of the costs. Obviously, increasing the size of the military by 10 is going to cost the taxpayer some money. Would likely be less than any one of the single payments we have made to Ukraine.

You could also incorporate the GI bill into this, so that if you stay in your service branch for 2.5 more years after the 18 months qualifies you for covered college.
barbacoa taco
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GeorgiAg said:

This is the gun control argument in a nutshell. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS:


the notion that 2A precludes all gun laws and regulations is an extremist view that is not supported by the law. See Scalia's opinion in Heller. Every right allows for reasonable restrictions, even freedom of speech.
TheEternalPessimist
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Definitely Not A Cop said:

TheEternalPessimist said:

Definitely Not A Cop said:

I think a great compromise would be requiring 18 months of military service out of HS. Everyone goes through the military evaluation, everyone gets trained in firearms. You still have the only people who are actually going to the frontlines as grunts are the people who were already signing up to do that. Every other kid is put into non-combat roles. They learn discipline, leadership qualities and trade skills like logistics, accounting, etc.

Then everyone who passes the mental eval gets out with a license to operate firearms all the way up to automatic weapons.
No.

I was medically disqualified from entering service due to childhood asthma.

Are you suggesting that I should not be able to own a gun to defend myself against either criminals OR a tyrannical government?

The Allen shooter was a military veteran btw.


That's not what I said. If you have a medical disability preventing you from serving on the front lines, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't still train you in a role that you could serve for them, it would just be in a logistic or business admin role versus combat role. You still receive the same training and discipline, allowing for your disability.

The Allen shooter was discharged from the military for mental health reasons. Per our existing laws, he should not have been able to have the guns he did, unless he has gone through some sort of appeals process we are not aware about so far.
So we should trust the current woke administrators of our military to decide if those leaving the military should have a weapon or not without due process?

What part of the 2nd Amendment do you not understand? In order to deny someone a God given right, they must have that right taken away through due process. Not through administrative desk jockeys and political activists arbitrarily making decisions on behalf of the bureaucracy .
--

"The Kingdom is for HE that can TAKE IT!" - Alexander
BCG Disciple
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I can support the OP if he changes the constitution.

Next.
zoneag
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With current leadership this would simply become a Bolshevik indoctrination program for their foot soldiers. No thanks.
Definitely Not A Cop
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TheEternalPessimist said:

Definitely Not A Cop said:

TheEternalPessimist said:

Definitely Not A Cop said:

I think a great compromise would be requiring 18 months of military service out of HS. Everyone goes through the military evaluation, everyone gets trained in firearms. You still have the only people who are actually going to the frontlines as grunts are the people who were already signing up to do that. Every other kid is put into non-combat roles. They learn discipline, leadership qualities and trade skills like logistics, accounting, etc.

Then everyone who passes the mental eval gets out with a license to operate firearms all the way up to automatic weapons.
No.

I was medically disqualified from entering service due to childhood asthma.

Are you suggesting that I should not be able to own a gun to defend myself against either criminals OR a tyrannical government?

The Allen shooter was a military veteran btw.


That's not what I said. If you have a medical disability preventing you from serving on the front lines, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't still train you in a role that you could serve for them, it would just be in a logistic or business admin role versus combat role. You still receive the same training and discipline, allowing for your disability.

The Allen shooter was discharged from the military for mental health reasons. Per our existing laws, he should not have been able to have the guns he did, unless he has gone through some sort of appeals process we are not aware about so far.
So we should trust the current woke administrators of our military to decide if those leaving the military should have a weapon or not without due process?

What part of the 2nd Amendment do you not understand? In order to deny someone a God given right, they must have that right taken away through due process. Not through administrative desk jockeys and political activists arbitrarily making decisions on behalf of the bureaucracy .


I'm not understanding your argument here. The military already does this with our existing laws. There aren't large swaths of veterans being denied the right to use weapons, in fact, all the current evidence points to the military allowing mentally ill people the right to use fire arms even after an evaluation.
SunrayAg
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Every liberal idea is more more idiotic and more Marxist than the last.

Let the government control your thoughts, comrade.
I choose to live as a free man.
Definitely Not A Cop
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You consider mandatory military service as a liberal idea? I figured I would be catching more flak as coming across too conservative by proposing it.
JohnLA762
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Definitely Not A Cop said:

You consider mandatory military service as a liberal idea? I figured I would be catching more flak as coming across too conservative by proposing it.


The delivery of your idea has some people confused (like me).

But I will say, having a federal entity control a constitutional right in a free society does come off pretty liberal…
jt2hunt
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Sutherland springs and the Allen mall were both military.....
BluHorseShu
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AggiePetro07 said:

Other than being unconstitutional, it's stupid.


Keep trying.
Someone's afraid of not passing?
B-1 83
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Slicer97 said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?


If a person is mentally ill to the point it is unsafe for society for them to possess a firearm, that person should not be able to move about freely in society. They should be intitutionalized.
What about someone with something like Down's Syndrome, or a stroke victim? Painting with a broad brush is seldom a good idea.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
TxSquarebody
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Apply the same logic to all rights...I'll wait.
AggiePetro07
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BluHorseShu said:

AggiePetro07 said:

Other than being unconstitutional, it's stupid.


Keep trying.
Someone's afraid of not passing?
Guns are icky. I wouldn't own one for any reason.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?
Its already illegal for the mentally ill to purchase a gun. Laws on gun control only affect people that follow the law.
Wait, you said "shall not be infringed". That seems to be an all-or-nothing statement on the part of the Constitution.
Thats the point, the laws put into place that have already eroded this right do nothing to slow down gun violence. They only make it harder for law abiding citizens to defend themselves.
It isn't difficult for anyone to "defend themselves" in this day and age. Sorry, that is just bull*****
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
TxTarpon
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Definitely Not A Cop said:

I think a great compromise would be requiring 18 months of military service out of HS.
That would be very expensive.
----------------------------------
Texans make the best songwriters because they are the best liars.-Rodney Crowell

We will never give up our guns Steve, we don't care if there is a mass shooting every day of the week.
-BarronVonAwesome

A man with experience is not at the mercy of another man with an opinion.
HalifaxAg
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AgNav93 said:

There is no compromising with the left. They are bad faith negotiators. They'll take an inch today and a mile tomorrow. You can't give them that first inch.
The first inch was given a long time ago, we're on inch 10 or 11, no more
Jack Ruby
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I'll give up my right to bear arms if politicians in DC give up heavily armed security.

In other words, never going to happen.
Funky Winkerbean
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?
Its already illegal for the mentally ill to purchase a gun. Laws on gun control only affect people that follow the law.
Wait, you said "shall not be infringed". That seems to be an all-or-nothing statement on the part of the Constitution.
Thats the point, the laws put into place that have already eroded this right do nothing to slow down gun violence. They only make it harder for law abiding citizens to defend themselves.
It isn't difficult for anyone to "defend themselves" in this day and age. Sorry, that is just bull*****


How do I defend myself in a gun free zone? I'd say that's difficult.

one safe place
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Definitely Not A Cop said:

one safe place said:

Definitely Not A Cop said:

I think a great compromise would be requiring 18 months of military service out of HS. Everyone goes through the military evaluation, everyone gets trained in firearms. You still have the only people who are actually going to the frontlines as grunts are the people who were already signing up to do that. Every other kid is put into non-combat roles. They learn discipline, leadership qualities and trade skills like logistics, accounting, etc.

Then everyone who passes the mental eval gets out with a license to operate firearms all the way up to automatic weapons.
Just how in the polecat hell are we going to pay for this? Where do you plan to house them all? And pay for constructing the housing? Transporting them? Feeding them? Medical costs? Training costs?

It would change nothing. People would still be mentally ill and if they go off the deep end after the mental evaluation, it wouldn't be known about. People would still want to steal. People would still get into conflicts and shoot others. Drugs and gangs and the violence associated with them would still exist.


Disagree. Requiring all 18-19.5 year olds to join the military will immediately cause a big downtrend in crime, as you have the majority of the largest demographic of offenders off the street already and being taught discipline (sometimes for the first time in these people's lives). Obviously you will have some people continue to break laws and not follow the rules. Now you try those people in a military court, not one with a Soros DA who is going to immediately let them back out onto a street to continue to commit crimes. I would expect 2-3 years of issues, then a big reduction in rule breakers after people get used to the idea and the consequences of not following.

I think you would drastically be able to reduce the prison population over 10 years, and you could then convert unused prisons to military bases as you consolidate.

The reduced policing costs, increased productivity from people learning trade skills instead of being housed in a prison for the remainder of their lives would offset some of the costs. Obviously, increasing the size of the military by 10 is going to cost the taxpayer some money. Would likely be less than any one of the single payments we have made to Ukraine.

You could also incorporate the GI bill into this, so that if you stay in your service branch for 2.5 more years after the 18 months qualifies you for covered college.
All just liberal big government throw money at the problem talking points. You said 18 months of military service. Crimes they commit after 18 months won't be tried in a military court. Reduce the prison population over 10 years and use the prisons as military bases? If you started your program today, where are you going to put all the 18 to 19.5 year olds? I would guess than number is around 10 million. About 1.7 million people are in prison and jail, so if you emptied them all today, no room for 8 million or so people. And you are talking about a 10 year timetable for the prisons "drastically reduce the prison population". In year 2 of your plan, you now have 20 million people to house, where are they going to go? And crime would still exist, you still would need some prison capacity.

Yeah, GI bill. Covering college for 10 million people each year (would start after the fourth year in your plan), that's pocket change. 10 million every year at $10,000 a year is 100 billion, EACH and EVERY year. Not a fan of spending in Ukraine, but our one-year cost for college education alone far exceed what we have given to Ukraine. While not all of the 10 million each year would utilize the GI bill, in time the number would be astronomical as some portion of each year's 10,000,000 coming of age to serve would participate. And we have not even considered what the 10,000,000 people will cost us in terms of housing, food, salaries, health care, transportation, etc. Far more than the cost of the GI bill for college.

Your "plan" which has the appearance of not being well thought out is neither practical nor affordable.
AggiePetro07
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?
Its already illegal for the mentally ill to purchase a gun. Laws on gun control only affect people that follow the law.
Wait, you said "shall not be infringed". That seems to be an all-or-nothing statement on the part of the Constitution.
Thats the point, the laws put into place that have already eroded this right do nothing to slow down gun violence. They only make it harder for law abiding citizens to defend themselves.
It isn't difficult for anyone to "defend themselves" in this day and age. Sorry, that is just bull*****
School children or teachers?

Subway riders in NYC?

Soldiers driving for Uber in Austin?

Definitely Not A Cop
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JohnLA762 said:

Definitely Not A Cop said:

You consider mandatory military service as a liberal idea? I figured I would be catching more flak as coming across too conservative by proposing it.


The delivery of your idea has some people confused (like me).

But I will say, having a federal entity control a constitutional right in a free society does come off pretty liberal…


Got you. I'm coming from a place as a gun owner that fully believes in the second amendment. However, most of the solutions being proposed would violate that constitutional rights (what the left wants) without actually addressing the issue (what most claim to want).

My solution would still need to be constitutionally amended to go into affect, which makes it a pipe dream.
As we can see in this thread, people on both sides don't like it, which makes it an even bigger one.


But it would greatly reduce crime, it would greatly reduce the fear around guns from your average citizen, it would keep the biggest demographic of criminals off the street and teach them discipline. It would teach every teenager valuable skills in the workforce for after, it would put most people wanting to go to college only 2.5 years away from getting the government to pay for it, and anyone who continues to want to be a criminal after would have to live within the fact that everyone he sees could potentially have an automatic weapon on them.
malenurse
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JohnLA762 said:

Why do you keep posting about automatic weapons? There are so few, they are heavily regulated, and are not responsible for many (if any) mass shootings today?
I hear there is a fully auto MP5 for sale in the San Antonio area. Cash offers only
The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But, it's still on the list.
aggielostinETX
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We compromised on gun control too much already.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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aggielostinETX said:

We compromised on gun control too much already.
What compromise are you talking about?
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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AggiePetro07 said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?
Its already illegal for the mentally ill to purchase a gun. Laws on gun control only affect people that follow the law.
Wait, you said "shall not be infringed". That seems to be an all-or-nothing statement on the part of the Constitution.
Thats the point, the laws put into place that have already eroded this right do nothing to slow down gun violence. They only make it harder for law abiding citizens to defend themselves.
It isn't difficult for anyone to "defend themselves" in this day and age. Sorry, that is just bull*****
School children or teachers?

Subway riders in NYC?

Soldiers driving for Uber in Austin?


So you want schoolchildren to be armed?

If anything, we've seen an expansion in gun rights across the nation recently.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
aggielostinETX
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ATF, NFA, '86 machine gun ban, Assault Weapon ban, Mandatory background checks, waiting periods, etc etc…
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
Funky Winkerbean
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

aggielostinETX said:

We compromised on gun control too much already.
What compromise are you talking about?


Gun free zones, licensing, etc..
Slicer97
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:



If anything, we've seen an expansion in gun rights across the nation recently.

And that is a good thing.
Funky Winkerbean
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

AggiePetro07 said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Pinche Guero said:

Shall not be infringed, you can't give the left an inch
Even for the mentally ill?
Its already illegal for the mentally ill to purchase a gun. Laws on gun control only affect people that follow the law.
Wait, you said "shall not be infringed". That seems to be an all-or-nothing statement on the part of the Constitution.
Thats the point, the laws put into place that have already eroded this right do nothing to slow down gun violence. They only make it harder for law abiding citizens to defend themselves.
It isn't difficult for anyone to "defend themselves" in this day and age. Sorry, that is just bull*****
School children or teachers?

Subway riders in NYC?

Soldiers driving for Uber in Austin?


So you want schoolchildren to be armed?

If anything, we've seen an expansion in gun rights across the nation recently.


Seriously are you 12? You honestly think arming school kids is what's being pushed?
 
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