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This will destroy all of our families and this is not hyperbole.

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I mean, your statement is hyperbole. It would raise our retirement age and taxes, but it wouldn't "destroy all of our families". That's just exaggeration.

No idea if the plan in the article is the way, but something must be done about social security and Medicare. The Democrat & Trump "plan" of calling them untouchable is not sustainable

It's unpopular politically, but hard truths are usually that way.

As a libertarian and financial conservative, I would gladly see the government get rid of the program and let people save their retirement on their own. I've personally just written it off as a tax and plan to never receive it when looking at our retirement. (My wife and I are 36)


Being realistic, that's a nightmare scenario. The first generation that had to do that would fail miserably. Saving money is just not something people do well.

If you told everyone that SS was going away, and their paycheck increased by $100 every two weeks….. they would go out to dinner with that money, or maybe pay down their student loans - the last thing they would do is to invest in retirement. And then we'd have a generation of old people with zero retirement money and a disaster on our hands.


I've come to the realization that SS is a necessary program, and it needs some changes in order to be functional in the future. In order :

1. Raise the retirement age, people are living longer, so the age for SS withdrawals needs to go up.
2. To the point made above, raise the income max
3. And lastly, if necessary, raise the tax rate nominally

Wrec86 Ag said:

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This will destroy all of our families and this is not hyperbole.

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I mean, your statement is hyperbole. It would raise our retirement age and taxes, but it wouldn't "destroy all of our families". That's just exaggeration.

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its also right out of the democrat playbook the past 40+ years.

This is a remarkably bad idea for so many reasons it could have only been dreamed up in Washington D.C.

I'd love to hear a cogent defense of this that does not rely on emotional appeal to socialistic utopias where everyone gets a retirement fund.

BMX Bandit said:

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Wrec86 Ag said:

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This will destroy all of our families and this is not hyperbole.

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I mean, your statement is hyperbole. It would raise our retirement age and taxes, but it wouldn't "destroy all of our families". That's just exaggeration.

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its also right out of the democrat playbook the past 40+ years.

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yeah well that worked well for them and it is time to fight fire with fire.

Without SS, what would you do with the huge amount of 70+ year-olds with $0 to their name and no real way to get a job. How do they get the bare minimum to live on? We would have a disaster on our hands that will lead to politicians creating a new entitlement program in 20-30 years.

Basically, everyone will still pay all the taxes, but only the people who didn't do the right thing would get the handouts.

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yeah well that worked well for them and it is time to fight fire with fire.

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fight who?

agreeing with the democrats isn;t fighting them.

BMX Bandit said:

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Quote:

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yeah well that worked well for them and it is time to fight fire with fire.

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fight who?

agreeing with the democrats isn;t fighting them.

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Who is agreeing with Democrats?

Wrec86 Ag said:

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Without SS, what would you do with the huge amount of 70+ year-olds with $0 to their name and no real way to get a job. How do they get the bare minimum to live on? We would have a disaster on our hands that will lead to politicians creating a new entitlement program in 20-30 years.

Basically, everyone will still pay all the taxes, but only the people who didn't do the right thing would get the handouts.

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Define "do the right thing".

the people saying that entitlement reform will "destroy our families"

OP is using the exact fear tactic democrats have used against reform.

fixer said:

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Wrec86 Ag said:

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Without SS, what would you do with the huge amount of 70+ year-olds with $0 to their name and no real way to get a job. How do they get the bare minimum to live on? We would have a disaster on our hands that will lead to politicians creating a new entitlement program in 20-30 years.

Basically, everyone will still pay all the taxes, but only the people who didn't do the right thing would get the handouts.

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Define "do the right thing".

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Properly save for retirement. Sorry, could have been clearer.

Wrec86 Ag said:

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As a libertarian and financial conservative, I would gladly see the government get rid of the program and let people save their retirement on their own. I've personally just written it off as a tax and plan to never receive it when looking at our retirement. (My wife and I are 36)


Being realistic, that's a nightmare scenario. The first generation that had to do that would fail miserably. Saving money is just not something people do well.

If you told everyone that SS was going away, and their paycheck increased by $100 every two weeks….. they would go out to dinner with that money, or maybe pay down their student loans - the last thing they would do is to invest in retirement. And then we'd have a generation of old people with zero retirement money and a disaster on our hands.


I've come to the realization that SS is a necessary program, and it needs some changes in order to be functional in the future. In order :

1. Raise the retirement age, people are living longer, so the age for SS withdrawals needs to go up.
2. To the point made above, raise the income max
3. And lastly, if necessary, raise the tax rate nominally

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I've been paying into SS for over 30 years and am convinced I will never see a dime. I believe the program is needed only because if it were cancelled the government would just create a separate entitlement and cash is fungible so I'll be paying for it one way or another through taxes.

The next 3 things that will happen to prolong SS are raising the eligibility age, broadening the streams of income that can be taxed for SS and means testing. If you make more than about $100k individually or $200k married, you will get means tested out or significantly reduced.

Rapier108 said:

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Best fix for Social Security is something similar to what Bush 43 was proposing.

Over a certain age, no changes.

Under a certain age, no social security, but the deduction goes into a personal retirement account you manage, but cannot take money out except for retirement, or the other rules that govern taking money out of Social Security.

Between those ages, you can choose which option you want. Either stay in as is, or if you want out, you'd get a 1 time check from the government, based on how much you paid in, to start your private account.

This way over time, Social Security would wither away and die; and people would have control over more of their own money.

I know people rail on Bush, but he did have the right idea about what to do about Social Security (and the impending housing market crash), but the Democrats blocked fixing both things.

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Agreed. This seems the most sensible solution

Anyone with a basic understanding of math should understand that Social Security as it is cannot continue. Reforming disability payments to try to limit fraud or increase the threshold of issues that currently qualify for permanent funding to clear out the egregious claims. Lifting the earnings cap and other modest tax increase barely move the needle shoring up the system.

I like the concept of allowing individuals to elect to invest their balances but the control over investment selection cannot be at the federal level. If ESG crap is bad now, wait until a leftist administration proxy votes as the largest shareholder in many companies.

THAT is socialism achieved by regulation.

• Set it up like the Federal Thrift Savings Plan
• Let there be options from S&P 500 funds to Savings Bonds - let the individual decide, with the default being savings bonds. IT IS YOURS AND NOBODY CAN TAKE IT REGARDLESS OF YOUR INCOME LATER IN LIFE
• Understand, part of your 15% is going "bye bye" to those who need it (injured, "special needs", orphans, etc……) just like now, and like the original program intended.
• Crack down on fraudulent disability claims and the criteria that lets people do nothing for "injuries".

https://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

All of you 20's,30's and 40's something folk out there who are vehemently against SS ........let's say that today, by some act of magic, you are now 73.....would you have the same attitude and forego receiving it? Would you forfeit your right to it? I don't think so.......

Now let's talk about school property taxes. Why should I, at 73, have to pay school property taxes out of my SS check to send your kids through K-12 when I haven't had a child in grade school in 25 years. Using your logic, you should have to save up and send your 2,3, 4,5 kids to school out of your own pocket .....along with saving for your retirement. I don't have any vested interest in educating your children but I do contribute toward such........and I don't bitz like a child about doing it

DallasAg 94 said:

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Here is what I've never understood about Black people.

From this article
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00876-5/fulltext
Which is referenced from our Gov's NIH...

Nationally, there was an increase in life expectancy for people from 2000 to 2019 and here is the breakdown by race:
API +2.9 yrs; 85.7 yrs
Latino +2.7 yrs; 82.2 yrs
White +1.7 yrs ; 78.9 yrs
Black +3.9 yrs; 75.3 yrs,
AIAN +0.0 yrs; 73.1 yrs

The CDC's numbers which include the impact of Covid are much more bleak:
https://www.axios.com/2022/09/02/cdc-race-life-expectancy-drop

Asian: 83.5
Hispanic: 77.7
White: 76.4
Blacks 70.8
AIAN: 65.2
All: 76.1

If they increase the retirement age to 70, if you are a Black... your life expectancy may or may not reach retirement.

Meanwhile, you'll pay 6.2%... your company will match that 6.2% for roughly 50 years, and you'll barely see anything.

Shameful. And Liberals are concerned the American people can't invest for themselves.

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If it makes you feel any better the reason that Blacks have a lower life expectancy is they have a much higher rate of death among the young and people on welfare or other government benefits for their entire lives (which is disproportionately Black) also tend not to live as long because of drugs and violence. So in effect the people who are bringing the average down don't contribute to SS. Blacks that live responsible lives live just as long as any other race.

I see this as an attempt to dodge some of the consequences of policies that cause inflation, by investing in assets that more or less inflate in value as the dollar itself inflates, allowing them to keep printing and spending more without directly raising taxes, and tax us through inflation, instead of fixing the structural problems. I agree we need to do something, but that something should involve consequences for poor saving Vs consumption choices earlier in life.

C@LAg said:

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or... get rid of social security.

problem solved.

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You'll be the first one to give up your benefits? You OK with that? Lets start with your generation. You can lead the way.

Not me. I've paid in. My employers have paid in. I'm getting mine.

DallasAg 94 said:

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B-1 83 said:

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• Set it up like the Federal Thrift Savings Plan
• Let there be options from S&P 500 funds to Savings Bonds - let the individual decide, with the default being savings bonds. IT IS YOURS AND NOBODY CAN TAKE IT REGARDLESS OF YOUR INCOME LATER IN LIFE
• Understand, part of your 15% is going "bye bye" to those who need it (injured, "special needs", orphans, etc……) just like now, and like the original program intended.
• Crack down on fraudulent disability claims and the criteria that lets people do nothing for "injuries".

https://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

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Pretty pie-in-the-sky. You apparently don't understand Social Security.

Social Security isn't a Savings Plan... it is a Ponzi scheme. The money paid into the system in 2023 will be distributed to the recipients. There is no Lock Box or asset today.

See above. Also, it is NOT YOURS. The Government will never let you have it.

Your current money going into the system is paying for people who "qualify" for disability. That is... people who are not working but getting paid by the Government as a form of Welfare. See image below:

Fraudulent disability is encouraged as a means to keep the economy going. Former Speaker Pelosi once said

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"This extension is important to America's working families and to our economy. Economists tell us that extending unemployment benefits is the most effective way to quickly grow the economy and create jobs. It is a fast, fair and fiscally responsible investment. For every dollar the federal government invests in unemployment benefits, the return is $1.73 in economic growth. In contrast, for every dollar the federal government provides to cut taxes on dividends, the return is only nine cents.

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That mentality extends to any form of Government payment to the people for not working.

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Isn't that the whole idea behind the suggested reforms in the thread - to make it yours and reform what "disability" is?

C@LAg said:

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also... would need to make the changes part of a constitutional amendment or something.

otherwise both parties will play with it for political points and change via legislation when politically expedient for them.

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Oh, we are going to bring the Constitution into this? Well considering that SS is completely Unconstitutional and always has been that would be a novel concept. The gymnastics they have used to justify SS from a legal perspective are beyond a joke, it violates multiple Articles of the Bill of Rights.

To me I can see this for the distraction that it is. Both my wife and I have been paying into SS for 35 years, many of those at max or near max levels. I fully expect that amount to increase for the next 15-20 before I retire. I full expect that I will get little to nothing for all of my contributions, in fact I expect to be berated and blamed as being the problem by the ignorant Democrats and corrupt Republicans. It will also likely just be used as a BS talking point by Dems in '24 to scare the ignorant that they are taking their SS away and get them to "vote Blue!" in the end. Looking at the Senators they have involved in this it's like an All Star team of the Swamp of Republicans that love to be the Controlled Opposition.

When Bush's plan to privatize died that was the last realistic chance we had to fix this thing. We still had enough time before the Baby Boomers retired. The Demographics are way too screwed now for a realistic fix. Instead they will just keep raising the age and increasing the taxes and make it into more of a Welfare program that screws over the people that paid in the most while benefiting those who paid in the least.

This is nothing to worry about. Biden will make sure WW3 starts way before anyone needs to be concerned with exorbitant socialist taxes in a lame attempt to save social security.

1. Phase out mandatory contributions to social security.
2. Allow people to volunteer contributions to their social security or to opt out.
3. If opting out AND cannot fund retirement, those people can stay in low quality gov provided "retirement communities" that are the equivalent of dorm rooms with soup kitchens.

We need to quit enabling the irresponsible culture and let people learn financial concequences.

I'm sure this won't be one of the biggest wealth transfers into the hands of the elite the world has ever seen, definitely not.

I've been telling everyone I work with that we won't be able to retire and that the government will steal social security and then eventually come after our 401k.

Matter of time before the fed and treasury are openly buying stocks. Will be great for a while, can buy any dip. But then will see enormous inflation.

Just want to provide a minor correction to the title of this thread...

The Swamp, Left and Right, HAVE BEEN running a train on the middle class for decades. They're just ramping it up now to destroy the middle class to the point where you will only have rich and poor. They are banking on the fact they will be in the first group.