At what age are these studies appropriate to discuss?

3,817 Views | 57 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Definitely Not A Cop
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Putting aside the political BS with "Don't Say Gay" bills, puppy play gimps, drag shows, and Screwdolph…

At what age are children developmentally capable of understanding the complexities of genetic predisposition, environmental, and en-utero developmental factors that affect human sexuality?

It has to be well past elementary school.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.2907

Quote:

The fraternal birth order effect (FBOE) is the finding that older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males,1 and the female fecundity effect (FFE) is the finding that the mothers of homosexual males produce more offspring than the mothers of heterosexual males.2 There is a considerable amount of empirical evidence for the reproducibility of the FBOE [25] and the FFE [68]. Each effect relates to a specific biological theory of the aetiology of homosexuality in malesan immunological theory, in the case of the FBOE [9,10], and a genetic theory, in the case of the FFE [11].

The maternal immune hypothesis (MIH) is the hypothesis that the FBOE reflects the progressive immunization of some mothers to male-specific antigens and the consequent effects of anti-male antibodies on sexual differentiation in the brain in male fetuses. According to this hypothesis, cells (or cell fragments) from male fetuses enter the maternal circulation during childbirth or perhaps earlier in pregnancy. These cells include substances that occur primarily on the surfaces of male brain cells, for example, the Y-linked membrane proteins NLGN4Y and PCDH11Y. The mother's immune system recognizes these male-specific molecules as foreign and produces antibodies to them. In subsequent male pregnancies, her antibodies cross the placental barrier and enter the fetal brain. Once in the brain, these antibodies bind to male-specific molecules on the surface of neurons and prevent these neurons from 'wiring-up' in a fully male-typical pattern. In consequence, the individual will later be attracted to men rather than to women. There has only been one laboratory test of the MIH, but its results were consistent with the hypothesis. This test found higher concentrations of anti-NLGN4Y antibody in the sera of mothers of homosexual men, especially those with older brothers, compared with the concentrations for mothers of heterosexual control subjects [10].

The FFE is a prediction of the balancing selection hypothesis (BSH). The BSH is an attempt to reconcile the findings from behaviour genetics and molecular genetics that homosexuality in men is partially heritable with the finding that homosexual men produce far fewer offspring than do their heterosexual counterparts. If both these findings are trueand there is no particular reason to doubt eitherthen the number of people who carry genes predisposing to homosexuality should be declining and the prevalence of homosexuality in the male population should be decreasing. Such a decrease, however, is not evident. The BSH resolves this seeming conundrum by proposing that the same genes that predispose to homosexuality in some males also increase fecundity in their heterosexual relatives, especially female relatives; this is the predicted FFE. Because of the FFE, the family's total number of descendants and the number of individuals carrying 'gay genes' remain constant. The FFE compensates for the low fertility of homosexual men.


https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7693

Quote:

In the discovery samples (UK Biobank and 23andMe), five autosomal loci were significantly associated with same-sex sexual behavior. Follow-up of these loci suggested links to biological pathways that involve sex hormone regulation and olfaction. Three of the loci were significant in a meta-analysis of smaller, independent replication samples.

Although only a few loci passed the stringent statistical corrections for genome-wide multiple testing and were replicated in other samples, our analyses show that many loci underlie same-sex sexual behavior in both sexes. In aggregate, all tested genetic variants accounted for 8 to 25% of variation in male and female same-sex sexual behavior, and the genetic influences were positively but imperfectly correlated between the sexes [genetic correlation coefficient (rg) = 0.63; 95% confidence intervals, 0.48 to 0.78]. These aggregate genetic influences partly overlapped with those on a variety of other traits, including externalizing behaviors such as smoking, cannabis use, risk-taking, and the personality trait "openness to experience." Additional analyses suggested that sexual behavior, attraction, identity, and fantasies are influenced by a similar set of genetic variants (rg > 0.83); however, the genetic effects that differentiate heterosexual from same-sex sexual behavior are not the same as those that differ among nonheterosexuals with lower versus higher proportions of same-sex partners, which suggests that there is no single continuum from opposite-sex to same-sex preference.

aggiepanic95
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm almost 50 and I am not capable of understanding it.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
aggiepanic95 said:

I'm almost 50 and I am not capable of understanding it.


The genetic component is largely explained by birth order due to a mother who produces antibodies in response to exposure to the Y-chromosome and the individual having a genetic predisposition for bucking social mores and partaking in risky behavior.
Franklin Comes Alive!
How long do you want to ignore this user?
" the complexities of genetic predisposition, environmental, and en-utero developmental factors that affect human sexuality? "

Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
C@LAg said:

better question.

why is it school's job to teach this.

they fail at teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic, yet they will somehow get THIS right?




I don't think there's any way for it to be taught appropriately K-12.
lb3
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fat Black Swan said:

C@LAg said:

better question.

why is it school's job to teach this.

they fail at teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic, yet they will somehow get THIS right?




I don't think there's any way for it to be taught appropriately K-12.
It really feels like graduate level work that would be over the heads of most undergrads.
Ernest Tucker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"The fraternal birth order effect (FBOE) is the finding that older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males,1 and the female fecundity effect (FFE) is the finding that the mothers of homosexual males produce more offspring than the mothers of heterosexual males.2"

Isn't this just an obvious statement that "homosexuals make up a small % of the population and the more kids you have increases the likelihood that you will have a homosexual child"?
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ernest Tucker said:

"The fraternal birth order effect (FBOE) is the finding that older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males,1 and the female fecundity effect (FFE) is the finding that the mothers of homosexual males produce more offspring than the mothers of heterosexual males.2"

Isn't this just an obvious statement that "homosexuals make up a small % of the population and the more kids you have increases the likelihood that you will have a homosexual child"?


The paper says that families with a predisposition for producing homosexual offspring have a predisposition for producing more offspring on average. This is due to the mothers having more babies and the siblings having more babies. Basically, they have a high libido.
Ernest Tucker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I know that, so what that means is

Let's say homosexuals make up 10% of the population

Family A has 1 kid. = 1/10 chance they will be parent with gay child

Family B has 4 kids = 4/10 chance

Family gay has 10 kids = 10/10 chance

I know I'm not a mathematician, but the gist is correct isn't it?

It know they are taking the, well high libido equals more gays, but isn't it really just playing a numbers game?
Post removed:
by user
Ernest Tucker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
You ever see those DNA toy kits for kids where the genes are all rainbow colored? It's that one.
bmks270
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ernest Tucker said:

"The fraternal birth order effect (FBOE) is the finding that older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males,1 and the female fecundity effect (FFE) is the finding that the mothers of homosexual males produce more offspring than the mothers of heterosexual males.2"

Isn't this just an obvious statement that "homosexuals make up a small % of the population and the more kids you have increases the likelihood that you will have a homosexual child"?


Not that simple. Because the data around this shows differences in the rate of homosexuality depending on the order of birth. First born males are homosexual at the lowest rate. The more older brothers, the higher the rates of homosexuality. That is my understanding of it.
Ernest Tucker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
So if total population is 1/10 people gay

If you take all the 1st born boys as a dataset, about 1/10 gay.

You take all the 2nd born boys (with an older brother) as it's own dataset and 3/10 gay.

You take all the 3rd born as it's own and 5/10 gay.

Is that right?
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ernest Tucker said:

I know that, so what that means is

Let's say homosexuals make up 10% of the population

Family A has 1 kid. = 1/10 chance they will be parent with gay child

Family B has 4 kids = 4/10 chance

Family gay has 10 kids = 10/10 chance

I know I'm not a mathematician, but the gist is correct isn't it?

It know they are taking the, well high libido equals more gays, but isn't it really just playing a numbers game?


We should not be approaching this topic in grade school. This is the math from the Royal Society paper:

Quote:

Khovanova [1] proved mathematically that the FBOE and FFE are inherently related. The FBOE implies a correlation between homosexuality and maternal fecundity. Conversely, the FFE implies a correlation between homosexuality and number of older brothers. As a solution to this confounding, Khovanova proposed a novel method for computing independent estimates of the FBOE and the FFE on the same samples and expressing the magnitude and direction of these effects in the same metric. In her procedure, only families with one or two sons are considered, and daughters are ignored.

Khovanova's procedures require three parameters calculated from an empirical sample: p11 is the probability that the first (and only) boy in a one-son family is homosexual, p12 is the probability that the first boy in a two-son family is homosexual and p22 is the probability that the second boy in a two-son family is homosexual. Given these definitions, the FFE implies that p12> p11, and the FBOE implies that p22> p12. Thus, if both effects are present, then p22 > p12 > p11.

These inequalities may be easier to understand without the mathematical notation. The logic behind the inequality p22> p12 is this: the second of two boys and the first of two boys have equally fecund mothers (two sons), but the second of two boys has a higher fraternal birth order (one older brother versus zero older brothers). Therefore, the second of two boys is more likely to be homosexual than the first of two boys.

The logic behind the inequality p12> p11 is this: the first of two boys and a first and only boy have the same fraternal birth order (zero older brothers), but the first of two boys has a more fecund mother (two sons versus one son). Therefore, the first of two boys is more likely to be homosexual than a first and only boy.

Khovanova expresses the magnitude and direction of both effects as risk ratios3 (sometimes called relative risks), that is, ratios of probabilities. In her words, 'The ratio p12/p11 shows a contribution of FF independent of FBOE' and 'The ratio p22/p12 shows the contribution of FBOE independent of FF.' Another way to put this is that the ratio p12/p11 represents the multiplicative change in the probability of homosexuality associated with the increase from zero to one younger brother.4 Similarly, the ratio p22/p12 represents the multiplicative change in the probability of homosexuality associated with the increase from zero to one older brother.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
C@LAg said:

can someone please post citation proving the existence of this "gay gene".


There's no singular gay gene. There's a number of genes that in combination through a sequence of events result in a predisposition for the expression.
The Banned
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bmks270 said:

Ernest Tucker said:

"The fraternal birth order effect (FBOE) is the finding that older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males,1 and the female fecundity effect (FFE) is the finding that the mothers of homosexual males produce more offspring than the mothers of heterosexual males.2"

Isn't this just an obvious statement that "homosexuals make up a small % of the population and the more kids you have increases the likelihood that you will have a homosexual child"?


Not that simple. Because the data around this shows differences in the rate of homosexuality depending on the order of birth. First born males are homosexual at the lowest rate. The more older brothers, the higher the rates of homosexuality. That is my understanding of it.


Yep. Specifically says that the further down the line sons are born, the more likely they are to have same sex attraction. If we're going to toss crap against a wall to see what sticks, how about this:

Most gay men have daddy issues. The more sons you have, the less time and attention you can give each one. Therefore, the sons born later in the order get less quality dad time, more stressed/angry dad outbursts, and may potentially seek the approval of other men in a sexual relationship?

OR, mothers have been proven to get softer on their children as they have more. Maybe the more sons you have, the more likely you are to coddle them like the daughter you never had…

I can come up with 1000 different theories and can guarantee to make anyone offended. But I would bet money that it's not antibody response. This seems like certified nonsense.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The second study shows a genetic predisposition towards risk taking behavior and not conforming to social norms relative to heterosexuals.

Neither are absolute, but together, they explain the nature side pretty well.

The other 20-40% is explained by the nurture side…
one safe place
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Parents should decide when they feel it is appropriate to discuss this or any other topic.

Schools should never discuss it, they have plenty of instruction to do in readin', writin', and arithmetic.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
There's no argument being made for a set percentage.

You might be able to argue a max percentage.
Bob Lee
How long do you want to ignore this user?
So did they find that this is true in perpetuity? What were the biggest families surveyed? If you're the 12th of 12 boys in your family, you're more likely to be homosexual than if you were the 5th of 5 boys?

Are they just surveying gay men to see howany siblings and where they are in order, or are they studying families of different sizes irregardless of their sexual proclivities?
eric76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fat Black Swan said:

At what age are children developmentally capable of understanding the complexities of genetic predisposition, environmental, and en-utero developmental factors that affect human sexuality?

It has to be well past elementary school.
Maybe about 50?
eric76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
aggiepanic95 said:

I'm almost 50 and I am not capable of understanding it.
Okay, then. Maybe about 90.
Pinochet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fat Black Swan said:

aggiepanic95 said:

I'm almost 50 and I am not capable of understanding it.


The genetic component is largely explained by birth order due to a mother who produces antibodies in response to exposure to the Y-chromosome and the individual having a genetic predisposition for bucking social mores and partaking in risky behavior.

Nope. Still not getting it. And I'm kind of a big deal. I'm very intelligent. Way more intelligent than kids.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Bob Lee said:

So did they find that this is true in perpetuity? What were the biggest families surveyed? If you're the 12th of 12 boys in your family, you're more likely to be homosexual than if you were the 5th of 5 boys?

Are they just surveying gay men to see howany siblings and where they are in order, or are they studying families of different sizes irregardless of their sexual proclivities?


12 boys and even 5 boys in a family is really getting into the outliers of a population distribution.

I'd imagine they kept their sample within the defined parameters of their analysis (3 brothers or less).
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Pinochet said:

Fat Black Swan said:

aggiepanic95 said:

I'm almost 50 and I am not capable of understanding it.


The genetic component is largely explained by birth order due to a mother who produces antibodies in response to exposure to the Y-chromosome and the individual having a genetic predisposition for bucking social mores and partaking in risky behavior.

Nope. Still not getting it. And I'm kind of a big deal. I'm very intelligent. Way more intelligent than kids.


Lack of gnostic ressentiment?
Bob Lee
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Fat Black Swan said:

Bob Lee said:

So did they find that this is true in perpetuity? What were the biggest families surveyed? If you're the 12th of 12 boys in your family, you're more likely to be homosexual than if you were the 5th of 5 boys?

Are they just surveying gay men to see howany siblings and where they are in order, or are they studying families of different sizes irregardless of their sexual proclivities?


12 boys and even 5 boys in a family is really getting into the outliers of a population distribution.

I'd imagine they kept their sample within the defined parameters of their analysis (3 brothers or less).


That doesn't inspire confidence.

Is number of children a good standard for relative sex drive at a time and place where contraceptives are the rule?
eric76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ernest Tucker said:

I know that, so what that means is

Let's say homosexuals make up 10% of the population

Family A has 1 kid. = 1/10 chance they will be parent with gay child

Family B has 4 kids = 4/10 chance

Family gay has 10 kids = 10/10 chance

I know I'm not a mathematician, but the gist is correct isn't it?

It know they are taking the, well high libido equals more gays, but isn't it really just playing a numbers game?
If the odds of whether one particular kid is independent of the others, then it is multiplicative.

For example, if you have two kids, and the chance of one being gay is 10%, then the chances that both are gay would be 1/100 (i.e. .1 * .1 = .01) or 1%. The odds of both being not gay would be (.9 * .9=.81 or 81%). The odds of one being gay and one not gay would be 1-.01-.81=0.18 (18%), not 0.2.

For 10 kids, the odds of all being not gay would be 0.9^10=0.34867844 or 34.867844%.

If the odds of one kid being gay changes the odds for the other children to be gay, then it would differ, but to come up with an answer, we'd need to know a lot more about those odds.
Not Coach Jimbo
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If kids need to learn this crap they can pay to learn it when pursuing their lesbian dance theory degree in college.

anything before that is a waste of taxpayer money.... if they want it bad enough, they can pay for it themselves.
Ellis Wyatt
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Hmmm…sounds like a nature versus nurture component possibly…
itsyourboypookie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
When the parent decides to teach them about it
FrankK
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MouthBQ98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I find more interesting the data indicating that it is possible that the reason genetic proclivity towards homosexuality in males isn't gradually eliminated from the population by the fact that they reproduce far less often may be because those same genes in their female siblings may make the females more fertile.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.