Are we at the "OxyContin is perfectly safe for long term use for moderate pain" stage

4,921 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by VaultingChemist
2012heisman
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Click on read the full conversation to look at all citations.
Goose06
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AG
I didn't see the citation for the sports related cardiac arrests but have seen a similar stat posted elsewhere. Can you link the citation here?
BadMoonRisin
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AG
Actually, the egregious sentence that was used for oxy was "The rate of addiction for patients who are treated by doctors is much less than 1%" as it was sold to perscribers.

And on the FDA-approved label (the guy who approved this language was later hired by Perdue Pharma) "Delayed absorption as provided by OxyContin tablets, is believed to reduce the abuse liability of a drug."

TRADUCTOR
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Goose06 said:

I didn't see the citation for the sports related cardiac arrests but have seen a similar stat posted elsewhere. Can you link the citation here?


Watch Monday Night Football.
Irish 2.0
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Musk has something to say about it...
Goose06
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AG
TRADUCTOR said:

Goose06 said:

I didn't see the citation for the sports related cardiac arrests but have seen a similar stat posted elsewhere. Can you link the citation here?


Watch Monday Night Football.


I get that it's a joke, but this isn't really a joking matter. I'm not some branch covidian playing gotcha. I prefer to have real evidence over anecdotal evidence to back up my arguments. If the vaccine is killing more young people than it's saving, we collectively need to get better at communicating that message to our loved ones and our acquaintances because God knows the media won't be carrying our water and we have an uphill battle to convincing the majority of our friends and family in many cases.
MookieBlaylock
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AG
If you truly care do some research instead of demanding people do the work for you
samurai_science
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Zobel
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AG
it's a nonsense claim. its a screenshot of a letter to the editor that you can't read without paying and no abstract. there's no original research done. it uses goodsciencing.com (seriously) as the source for the 1598 athletes. the neat little graph is a screenshot from euromomo.eu where they have a disclaimer that says:

Quote:

Because of the unexpected and varying mortality experienced during the COVID-19 pandemic, the calculated baseline applied in the EuroMOMO estimation of excess number of deaths do not include data from 2020 and onwards, as these data will distort the estimated level of baseline number of deaths.

Due to the exclusion of data from the COVID-19 pandemic, the trend incorporated in the statistical estimation of the baseline are presently forecasted beyond the intended duration. This prolonged forecast has introduced an increasing bias over time, which can cause incorrect estimations of the excess mortality, particularly when the numbers are cumulated.

Because of this enhanced bias when cumulating data, the cumulated outputs should not be considered reliable at this point and must be interpreted very cautiously.

they pulled a graph from this website and cropped off the big caution disclaimer in yellow. here, see for yourself. go to the link and scroll down to "excess mortality."
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/
samurai_science
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Cancer will be on the horizon for these "safe" "vaccines" pretty soon, it happened in the trials.
gbaby23
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AG
Quote:

And at the OxyContin launch party, where the court filing says Sackler spoke of a "blizzard of prescriptions" for the potent painkiller, he added: "The prescription blizzard will be so deep, dense, and white."

Remember that this is how pharma companies think of you.
Goose06
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AG
My question was about the sports related cardiac deaths. Your link does not reference that at all. I appreciate the effort, but wrong stat!
Zobel
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AG
ah - sorry. the paper uses this study
Goose06
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AG
That is a study from 2006, how would it estimate how many have died since 2021?
Zobel
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AG
1598 athlete cardiac arrests since jan 2021 - source goodsciencing.com
average before vaccine was 29/yr - source the other article in the European journal of cardiovascular prevention and rehabilitation
Goose06
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AG
Thanks, I did not see that link in your earlier post. Why is it that Good Science is so untrustworthy to you exactly? I am not familiar. I do see that they list off every one of the 1,000+ sports related deaths so I would think if it was inaccurate it should be pretty easy to prove, right? What is your problem with the study?
Zobel
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AG
because it's not a study, it's just a list of people who died or had issues. just scanning at random it includes mike leach (#6), a 61 year old former moto champion who had cancer (#17), a 40 year old wrestler who has hodgkins lymphoma (#19), a 62 year old former pro soccer player (#57), a 58 year old who died of prostate cancer (#58) etc.

you can't compare this list with the actual study in an actual journal. you should just compare it to total cancer and heart related deaths in the whole world, or something.
Goose06
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AG
Agreed. Credibility blown with the Mike Leach inclusion.
nortex97
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AG
In truth masks have had just as deleterious an impact on 'public health' from a widespread perspective I think as anything else.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/breathing-trouble

Quote:

Just like smoking a single cigarette never killed anyone, wearing a face mask for a few hours or a few days does not cause irreversible damage either. But the immediate short-term physiological effects are detectable: A recent study led by Pritam Sukul, senior medical scientist at the University Medicine Rostock in Germany, found masks to cause hypercarbia (high concentration of CO in the blood), arterial oxygen decline, blood pressure fluctuations, and concomitant physiological and metabolic effects. On a time scale of weeks or months, these effects appear to be reversible. But how can we know what can happen to people who wear masks for several hours a day for several years? Will we have to wait for decades before concluding that masks are bad for people's health, as was the case with cigarettes?

Not necessarily, for we are able to assess face masks in terms of the air quality breathed by the wearers. One important parameter for air quality is CO concentration. Over the years, a lot of data has been accumulated in this field from miners, astronauts, submariners, and other people exposed to high concentrations of CO. Measurable negative effects on mental alertness already occur at CO concentrations over 600 parts per million (ppm), which is only slightly higher than the average concentration in open air (a little more than 400 ppm). Values higher than 1,000-2,000 ppm are not recommended for living spaces, especially for children and pregnant women. 5,000 ppm is the commonly accepted limit in working environments or in submarines and spaceships. Concentrations in the range of 10,000-20,000 ppm are not immediately life-threatening but can only be withstood for short periods. Even higher concentrations may lead to loss of consciousness and death.

So what kind of CO concentration are people exposed to when they wear a face mask? Measuring the concentration of CO inside the small volume of a face mask while it is being used poses practical problems, and there are no standardised methods and procedures to evaluate this. Nevertheless, during the past few years, several papers dealing with this subject were published.

Some of these papers were criticised, but often baselessly. For instance, some fact checkers claimed that the same amount of CO could be found without face masks in exhaled breath. This is true, but trivial. The studies mentioned above measured the amount of CO in the inhaled air under face masks; the fact checkers measured the air exhaled. Other fact checkers provided a priori statements by "experts," including a sports reporter.

Meanwhile, studies that rely on robust capnographic methods that calculate inhaled CO levels from the end-tidal volume of CO under strictly controlled conditions have corroborated our findings about elevated CO levels in masks. In short, there is strong evidence that people wearing face masks, especially the FFP2/N95 type, breathe a concentration of carbon dioxide several times higher than the recommended concentration limits, in the range of over 5,000 ppm and often over 10,000 ppm. In other words, masks may multiply the external CO concentration by a factor of 10, if not more.

Individuals wearing a tight, N95-style face mask are thus breathing air of comparable quality to the air in spacecrafts and submarines. Astronauts and submariners, though, are well trained and in peak physical condition; masks, meanwhile, are often worn by the elderly, the young, and people affected by chronic pathologies. A recent study of more than 20,000 German children who wore masks for an average of more than four hours per day showed that 68% of them reported these kinds of problems.

There are additional risks associated with face masks that should be considered, such as psychological effects and infections from pathogens accumulated in the mask tissue, but we believe that the increased concentrations of CO breathed by mask-wearers is a clear and demonstrated adverse effect that should be known and considered when deciding policies. In short, face masks are not harmless.

Wearing a face mask is not a purely symbolic gesture like wearing a lapel pin or waving a flag, as some people have come to believe. It is not simply an expression of social solidarity, belief in science, or support for health care workers. It can have important adverse effects on healthespecially in the case of N95sand, at the very minimum, citizens should be alerted to the downsides of masking before they make up their minds on the issue. Face masks should be mandated only in special circumstances, and ordinary citizens should wear them only when there is a real and evident risk of infection.
I still regularly see people wearing these (often as family units) out in the store/public. It's purely a religious article of faith at this point, not simply ignorance or a questionable bit of medical advice.
dreyOO
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I'll never have the proof, but my son got really sick from something that started with wearing the daily face diapers to school. Forced to wear them although he already had natural immunity. Forced to wear them by the fat, lazy teachers unions. This boy was the picture of health his whole life until then.

Never again. Fortunately his pediatrician wrote exemptions after they tried reinstituting mask rules.

And if the whackos push it again, we WILL home school.
Romello
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samurai_science said:

Cancer will be on the horizon for these "safe" "vaccines" pretty soon, it happened in the trials.


How convenient for big pharma.
nortex97
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AG
Masks/lockdowns/forced vaccinations were the most cruel/criminal acts of Fauci flu on the elderly and children alike:



https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/sweden-has-the-lowest-excess-mortality-rate-after-the-pandemic-despite-refusing-to-lock-down/news-story/df50001366bb09b6a20421520cbfbf53

Sweden is the proof. The videos of normalcy in spring 2020 there, which never really went away at all compared to the rest of the 'civilized' west, are how we all should have lived for the past 2+ years. But there's more.

https://www.wndnewscenter.org/face-masks-for-children-both-ineffective-and-dangerous/

https://www.aier.org/article/the-dangers-of-masks/

I despise people who force(d) masks on healthy kids.
dreyOO
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Yup. I saw both sides of that spectrum. My grandma was in her 90s and doing about as well as most that age can do. Unsurprisingly, her mental health went immediately downhill when every masked up and we were only able to visit each other was through a pane of glass.

The idiots pushing these inhumane policies are the biggest cowards that have ever lived. Btw, both my grandparents had already breezed through Covid. This is POST-recovery.
Funky Winkerbean
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AG
Goose06 said:

I didn't see the citation for the sports related cardiac arrests but have seen a similar stat posted elsewhere. Can you link the citation here?
It's called a search engine..
Funky Winkerbean
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AG
dreyOO said:

I'll never have the proof, but my son got really sick from something that started with wearing the daily face diapers to school. Forced to wear them although he already had natural immunity. Forced to wear them by the fat, lazy teachers unions. This boy was the picture of health his whole life until then.

Never again. Fortunately his pediatrician wrote exemptions after they tried reinstituting mask rules.

And if the whackos push it again, we WILL home school.
Raise a lot of hell first.
Spotted Ag
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AG
Not sure about all the COVID stuff, but oxycodone sure does alleviate my back and leg pain. Makes moving around bearable again.
AGHouston11
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AG
Even the ones that actually took the jab are not doing the boosters to stay "up to date"

Meaning they have lost the compliance even with that group!

However many in that group continue to "support" the jab

One of the biggest money scams in history
Kvetch
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AG
Zobel said:

because it's not a study, it's just a list of people who died or had issues. just scanning at random it includes mike leach (#6), a 61 year old former moto champion who had cancer (#17), a 40 year old wrestler who has hodgkins lymphoma (#19), a 62 year old former pro soccer player (#57), a 58 year old who died of prostate cancer (#58) etc.

you can't compare this list with the actual study in an actual journal. you should just compare it to total cancer and heart related deaths in the whole world, or something.


How do you respond to the vastly inaccurate reporting on COVID deaths that are a result of coding all deaths with COVID as deaths of COVID? I would say the stats on both side of this argument are completely inaccurate.

Also, at what age do you think the research indicates the risk of COVID outweighs the risk of the vaccine?
Kvetch
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AG
I sort of agree except the problem with directly comparing the US to Sweden without some serious controls is that the demographics are vastly different. The US is highly obese and generally unhealthy, which we know is a huge comorbidity (although the covidians will never admit that because they don't want to body shame).

Edit to say I completely agree that the masking is insane. There's never been any empirical evidence to support masking, especially in children. The people that have pushed all this pseudoscience garbage are the reason nobody has any faith in "the experts" now.
Zobel
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AG
Kinda begging the question aren't you? How do you judge that the reporting is vastly inaccurate?

My point is that this isn't anything close to systematic. It's just a collection of press clippings. Whatever flaws you may think there were in death statistics, at least there's a doctor involved who is writing what they think cause of death is, or codes for whatever symptoms and treatments people got. Then people who study things pull data in a transparent way, that they tell you in their paper, and make their data available.

I am sure there were errors, but it's a false equivalence to point to this and say "all stats on COVID are like this."

I think the vaccine benefit outweighs the risk of COVID at a population level for all ages. I'd put that at like a 90% confidence. The boosters I'd probably put personal confidence at 50/50 for young men who are otherwise healthy based on the good research out there. Diminishing returns from boosters and increasing risk seems to be the case.

I'd also say that I don't have a ton of confidence in my own likelihood to be right when general medical consensus seems to point the other way.
Kvetch
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AG
So you think there is empirical evidence to show that it's worth giving these shots to 10 year olds with no comorbidities? Because they are at statistically zero risk of severe illness and death.

Also, there's a fair amount of evidence that COVID death tolls are inaccurate. There's been multiple reports of numbers being adjusted down by the thousands. What the true magnitude of the inaccuracies are, I don't think anybody will ever know. But let's not pretend that just because a doctor signs off on a death certificate that there are no bureaucratic influences or inaccuracies in the coding.


Here's a "fact checker" doing their best to goaltend for the inaccuracies and vaccines.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/cdcs-covid-data-tracker-deaths-downward-reliable-data-still-indicate-covid-19-major-cause-of-death/
Zobel
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AG
Yeah, I think the benefit outweighs the harm. Maybe along the lines of the annual flu shot or varicella, but still. Not a lot of kids dying from those either, but at the population level the vaccines are a positive.

I think you need to qualify evidence. Reports in media or revisions downward are a kind of evidence but they're not on the same level as like a study done by Ionnadis or whatever. If you really want to gauge the quality of reporting it would probably best be done with excess
Mortality, but there are lots of potential confounders. I suspect if you look you'll find a lot of high quality studies that support the general consensus that COVID had a direct impact on death. Even if we take an infection fatality rate in the low range of estimates like 0.3% you still end up with a million deaths once everyone in the US gets it once.

That is an argument against vaccination as it goes on though. Once everyone has had the virus a couple of times you have a strong survivorship bias in the fatality rate. Those who were likely to die, did. Subsequent waves have fewer vulnerable people to kill and by result fewer people to benefit from the vaccines. But it's mostly academic because a very very high majority of Americans are already vaccinated.
Kvetch
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AG
Zobel said:

Yeah, I think the benefit outweighs the harm. Maybe along the lines of the annual flu shot or varicella, but still. Not a lot of kids dying from those either, but at the population level the vaccines are a positive.

I think you need to qualify evidence. Reports in media or revisions downward are a kind of evidence but they're not on the same level as like a study done by Ionnadis or whatever. If you really want to gauge the quality of reporting it would probably best be done with excess
Mortality, but there are lots of potential confounders. I suspect if you look you'll find a lot of high quality studies that support the general consensus that COVID had a direct impact on death. Even if we take an infection fatality rate in the low range of estimates like 0.3% you still end up with a million deaths once everyone in the US gets it once.

That is an argument against vaccination as it goes on though. Once everyone has had the virus a couple of times you have a strong survivorship bias in the fatality rate. Those who were likely to die, did. Subsequent waves have fewer vulnerable people to kill and by result fewer people to benefit from the vaccines. But it's mostly academic because a very very high majority of Americans are already vaccinated.


Do you support mandates? Or measures like masking, lockdowns, 6 feet apart, etc?
IslanderAg04
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Main reason we stayed in Afghanistan. Government control of Opium.
Zobel
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AG
No, and there are some really interesting things to read about the 6' thing and the lockdown stuff.

Goof up with old research leading to six foot rule
https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/amp

And lockdowns
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/lockdown-effectiveness-much-more
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