FTX was a ponzi scheme and also was a "complete failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information?" So it was the dumbest and inept ponzi scheme ever. From the outside, FTX looks a lot more like Enron than Madoff. FTX was collateralizing BS with other BS that people actually think/tought had value. Madoff was fabricating his own statements and transactions to hide from investors/clients what they really owned. With Madoff, they clawback investment redemption from years prior from widows, pension funds etc. Not sure they'll have the authority or balls to clawback FTX redemptions

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what should we do if the person who told us that what SBF did was similar to madoff was diana henriques, one of the most prominent experts on madoff who wrote a book on him and was featured in the series you referenced. should we still move forward with telling her she is completely stupid and uninformed?

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the same lady that admits we don't yet know because its stil unclear how the money was moved and utilized?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/17/sam-bankman-fried-bernie-madoff-fraud-ftx

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But as information about FTX's collapse begins to unspool across a variety of venues and the authorities build a clearer understanding of how the money moved and how the alleged fraud was carried out, Henriques cautions that the parallels may yet collapse.

"We don't know yet, and I'm not sure John Ray knows yet, whether this was some kind of high-tech Ponzi scheme in reality. Understanding how close this gets to Bernie Madoff means understanding what was done with the money.

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lol.ok
I guess we should trust an 80 yr old author that wrote a couple of books once about Madoff on the innerworking of FTX financials that havent been reported yet.

ac04 said:

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a direct quote from the woman i'm talking about in the article you linked

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"The similarities between what we know of Madoff and what we know of Bankman-Fried is striking," she said. "They are vastly different characters, but what is similar is this deliberate, eye-crossing complexity that would cause the average investor to just glaze over and say, 'Well, I trust Bernie.'

"I see that same dynamic in how the client base viewed FTX. They really didn't have a lot of solid evidence to support their trust, so it was - as with Bernie - a leap of faith. You trust the central character and that short-circuits a lot of the steps that, in hindsight, are the obvious due diligence you would do, and that is amazing[ly] similar."

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the poster claimed that if you had watched the madoff series you would dismiss anyone who says they are similar as stupid and uninformed. and then a woman who has intimate knowledge of madoff and was interviewed in the same show he's talking about is directly quoted as saying they are similar.

is there anything you enjoy more than being obtuse and wasting people's time?

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Some of us dont believe everything we read, and actually had indirect fallout due to Madoff. Madoff and SBF may have had similar cults of personality, but the schemes, again from the outside looking in, look quite different in structure and purpose. There is a difference between client money and investor money. Madoff faked documents to make people believe something that didn't exist. FTX was commingling assets to collateralize investments across platforms. Madoff knew exactly what he was doing. SBF seems like a blithering idiot

fair enough. but to quote again

Quote:

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complete failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information

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seems to me like SBF was either a blithering idiot flying too close to the sun or one of the most ingenious schemers and best salesman of all time. in reality probably somewhere in between.

when someone shows you who they are believe them - Maya Angelou

Throwing bitcoin out with the bathwater of "crypto" leads me to believe there's not much substance to discuss in the first place.

If one cannot articulate the differences between bitcoin and 3rd party institutions there's only dismissal available.

fka ftc said:

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I know you are passionate in your crypto quest to tilt at the anti-fiat windmills, but if you think free and anonymous crypto continues then I think you are going to be a sad, sad person.

FTX and the other frauds around this is just the beginning. When the MSM decides they are done with crypto, they will point out what we all know is obvious and happening - crypto is a preferred method of commerce for a whole slew of illicit activities. It was essentially made for it. To have trust amongst thieves is a selling point of the blockchain.

Guess not too many people watched Die Hard over Christmas to be reminded of negotiable bearer bonds and be reminded of why they went away.

After FTX, I absolutely reside firmly in the camp that its nothing more than a gimmick and deserves no place in investor discussions other than in the context of penny stocks and junk bonds. High risk, not for traditional investor.

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Crypto is terrible for illicit activities, it is extremely traceable…

Crypto Lender Genesis Files For Bankruptcy, Seen As "Crucial Step To Recover Assets"

Crypto lender Genesis Global Holdco LLC and two of its lending subsidiaries filed Thursday night for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in New York. Genesis Global is the latest firm to fold following last year's implosion of the crypto hedge fund Three Arrows Capital and the collapse of FTX.

Genesis Global Holdco filed for bankruptcy protection along with Genesis Global Capital, LLC and Genesis Asia Pacific Pte. Ltd. Genesis Global Trading wasn't included in the filing and continues client trading operations.

The filing explained Genesis Global Capital, the partner company to Gemini's defunct Earn program, had more than 100,000 creditors and between $1 billion and $10 billion in assets and or liabilities. The other entities had assets and liabilities between the $100 million and $500 million range.


Genesis owes its top 50 creditors more than $3.5 billion. Some of those creditors include Gemini, VanEck's New Finance Income Fund, MoonAlpha Finance, Mirana, and Cumberland. They said talks were ongoing, productive discussions" with the advisers of its creditors, along with its parent company Digital Currency Group in the attempt to find a way to "preserve assets and move the business forward."

https://www.zerohedge.com/crypto/crypto-lender-genesis-files-bankruptcy-seen-crucial-step-recover-assets


I'm surprised it took this long…..the dominoes falling slowly.

MuchosPollos said:

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Crypto Lender Genesis Files For Bankruptcy, Seen As "Crucial Step To Recover Assets"

Crypto lender Genesis Global Holdco LLC and two of its lending subsidiaries filed Thursday night for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in New York. Genesis Global is the latest firm to fold following last year's implosion of the crypto hedge fund Three Arrows Capital and the collapse of FTX.

Genesis Global Holdco filed for bankruptcy protection along with Genesis Global Capital, LLC and Genesis Asia Pacific Pte. Ltd. Genesis Global Trading wasn't included in the filing and continues client trading operations.

The filing explained Genesis Global Capital, the partner company to Gemini's defunct Earn program, had more than 100,000 creditors and between $1 billion and $10 billion in assets and or liabilities. The other entities had assets and liabilities between the $100 million and $500 million range.


Genesis owes its top 50 creditors more than $3.5 billion. Some of those creditors include Gemini, VanEck's New Finance Income Fund, MoonAlpha Finance, Mirana, and Cumberland. They said talks were ongoing, productive discussions" with the advisers of its creditors, along with its parent company Digital Currency Group in the attempt to find a way to "preserve assets and move the business forward."

https://www.zerohedge.com/crypto/crypto-lender-genesis-files-bankruptcy-seen-crucial-step-recover-assets


I'm surprised it took this long…..the dominoes falling slowly.

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The winklevii decided to ****coin, they FAFO'd.