Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

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No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

92AG10 said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

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That's naive at best. DOD received their mission requirements and planning timelines from the President, through the SECDEF. "You will have all U.S. forces out of Afghanistan by August 31,2022" is an order.

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Oh, so let me see. Biden wrote the OPORD. He wrote the Mission: All US forces and friendlies will redeploy from Afghanistan on 30AUG21 using the Bagram Airfield. J-4 is tasked to provide a plan of the battle handover of vehicles, weapons, and vehicles to the Afghan military. Biden wrote TRANSCOM will provide 100 planes to redeploy the US military personnel and friendlies. Biden continues: The J-3/J-4 ensure airfield operations are conducted to include transportation to the airfield from designated pickup points. J-1 will provide passenger manifests. Biden then writes 1st Brigade will provide security at the airfield. 2nd Brigade will secure routes. Biden tells the Afghan forces to keep fighting and provide security for redeployment operations. Biden then tells then tells the Joint Task Force commander to coordinate with the DOS for the count of US Nationals in Afghanistan. Biden then orders all battalions to provide pallet teams for the planes, and each company provide status on sensitive items. The chain of command is the JTF commander and Biden.

zoneag said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

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Of course you don't, you are a rabid partisan. Obviously the administration was pleased with DoD execution of the plan since there was no accountability for the utter catastrophe that it turned out to be. Acceptable casualties for them I suppose, all in the name of political expediency.

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This rabid partisan deployed 3 times to the middle east. What you claim about me is silly and absurd. Have you participated military movement planning of personnel, equipment, vehicles, and weapons? Who said the administration was pleased with the execution? Did our military determine what were facts and assumptions? Does the military use assumptions in the planning process like this? Have you ever put on combat boots?

Outside of the U.S. getting directly attacked, domestic issues will drive elections. Not something like this. It was a hot news story in the media cycle for a little while because news ratings, but most Americans simply don't care or even follow stuff going on outside the borders unless it has or will directly affect them.

Eliminatus said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

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No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

Red1 said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

---

No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

---

What?? You legitimately lost me. We aren't talking about Ukraine nor pandemic response.

I know military plans and exercises are an ethereal, esoteric, and arcane art that only a very select chosen few such as yourself will ever be able to comprehend. The rest of us with monkey brains can only gibber and hoot at maps and orders. My bad, brochacho. I forgot my place.

Red1 said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

---

No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

---

The horrific pandemic planning that put us on par with the rest of the world and still allowed individual states to chart their own course? I'm good with that.


Now, about Afghanistan……
Had Trump's withdrawal plan been followed, does anyone believe the Taliban wouldn't have taken over? Certainly not as much chaos, American deaths, or equipment left behind, but it was inevitable with the stupid goat screwers in charge there.

B-1 83 said:

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Red1 said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

---

No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

---

The horrific pandemic planning that put us on par with the rest of the world and still allowed individual states to chart their own course? I'm good with that.


Now, about Afghanistan……
Had Trump's withdrawal plan been followed, does anyone believe the Taliban wouldn't have taken over? Certainly not as much chaos, American deaths, or equipment left behind, but it was inevitable with the stupid goat screwers in charge there.

---

We are far from being on par with the rest of the world. Trump screwed the country.

Hell Trump could not even plan for the pandemic and there was a plan in place, but he never executed it. That gives me little confidence Trump had a viable plan for Afghanistan. What was Trumps plan to withdraw? Tell me more about the plan because I have never heard about Trumps detailed plan.

As badly as Biden f###ed up the withdrawal, the media was only too happy to cover it up for him.

Sure they stranded a bunch of Americans and allies, but they brought back 100,000 people we had know clue about, and both Biden and the press wanted you to think that was some big accomplishment. He's like an arsonist that wants a reward because he saved your dog from the fire.

"We stole the election from Trump, and it's his fault we never got to see his plan for Afghanistan!"

Red1 said:

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B-1 83 said:

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Red1 said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

---

No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

---

The horrific pandemic planning that put us on par with the rest of the world and still allowed individual states to chart their own course? I'm good with that.


Now, about Afghanistan……
Had Trump's withdrawal plan been followed, does anyone believe the Taliban wouldn't have taken over? Certainly not as much chaos, American deaths, or equipment left behind, but it was inevitable with the stupid goat screwers in charge there.

---

We are far from being on par with the rest of the world. Trump screwed the country.

Hell Trump could not even plan for the pandemic and there was a plan in place, but he never executed it. That gives me little confidence Trump had a viable plan for Afghanistan. What was Trumps plan to withdraw? Tell me more about the plan because I have never heard about Trumps detailed plan.

---

Here is what you can be assured would not have happened.

Say around August 25th "we are still a long way from being ready, still too many people to go." (that's what happend)

With Trump it would have been more like this:

"F- -- the August 31 date then. We will set it to Halloween. Two more full months should be enough."

"We pledged to--"

Trump: "Oct 31 or later or bombs, their choice."

THAT Is what did not happen. A super power allowed itself to be run out like some Dunkirk with none of the stress and logistic limits the British were under. The timeline was Biden's.

titan said:

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Red1 said:

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B-1 83 said:

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Red1 said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Red1 said:

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I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

---

No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

---

The horrific pandemic planning that put us on par with the rest of the world and still allowed individual states to chart their own course? I'm good with that.


Now, about Afghanistan……
Had Trump's withdrawal plan been followed, does anyone believe the Taliban wouldn't have taken over? Certainly not as much chaos, American deaths, or equipment left behind, but it was inevitable with the stupid goat screwers in charge there.

---

We are far from being on par with the rest of the world. Trump screwed the country.

Hell Trump could not even plan for the pandemic and there was a plan in place, but he never executed it. That gives me little confidence Trump had a viable plan for Afghanistan. What was Trumps plan to withdraw? Tell me more about the plan because I have never heard about Trumps detailed plan.

---

Here is what you can be assured would not have happened.

Say around August 25th "we are still a long way from being ready, still too many people to go." (that's what happend)

With Trump it would have been more like this:

"F- -- the August 31 date then. We will set it to Halloween. Two more full months should be enough."

"We pledged to--"

Trump: "Oct 31 or later or bombs, their choice."

THAT Is what did not happen. A super power allowed itself to be run out like some Dunkirk with none of the stress and logistic limits the British were under. The timeline was Biden's.

---

Trump had a pandemic plan and could not even use it. He lied about COVID. He is not a bold, rational, competent leader.

Red1 said:

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titan said:

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Red1 said:

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B-1 83 said:

---

Red1 said:

---

Eliminatus said:

---

Red1 said:

---

I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

---

No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

---

The horrific pandemic planning that put us on par with the rest of the world and still allowed individual states to chart their own course? I'm good with that.


Now, about Afghanistan……
Had Trump's withdrawal plan been followed, does anyone believe the Taliban wouldn't have taken over? Certainly not as much chaos, American deaths, or equipment left behind, but it was inevitable with the stupid goat screwers in charge there.

---

We are far from being on par with the rest of the world. Trump screwed the country.

Hell Trump could not even plan for the pandemic and there was a plan in place, but he never executed it. That gives me little confidence Trump had a viable plan for Afghanistan. What was Trumps plan to withdraw? Tell me more about the plan because I have never heard about Trumps detailed plan.

---

Here is what you can be assured would not have happened.

Say around August 25th "we are still a long way from being ready, still too many people to go." (that's what happend)

With Trump it would have been more like this:

"F- -- the August 31 date then. We will set it to Halloween. Two more full months should be enough."

"We pledged to--"

Trump: "Oct 31 or later or bombs, their choice."

THAT Is what did not happen. A super power allowed itself to be run out like some Dunkirk with none of the stress and logistic limits the British were under. The timeline was Biden's.

---

Trump had a pandemic plan and could not even use it. He lied about COVID. He is not a bold, rational, competent leader.

---

Ah ha-- you dodged and shifted to covid and didn't address the Afghanistan rebuttal. Is that concession that is indeed Biden's fault and that Trump would not have obeyed some silly deadline at our expense?

titan said:

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Red1 said:

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titan said:

---

Red1 said:

---

B-1 83 said:

---

Red1 said:

---

Eliminatus said:

---

Red1 said:

---

I don't blame the administration. It was DOD's mission to plan and execute the withdrawal.

---

No, it wasn't. It's not even a degree of misunderstanding. It is straight up wrong. It was absurd political constraints and restrictions from the administration that shaped the requirements of the mission. As bad as the DoD did anyways, I can still acknowledge they were dealt a horrendous hand. And then took that hand and made it worse. Fault lies with both but ultimately it was the admin that screwed up first and started that snowball at the top of the hill.

---

I will play the silly game of linear thinking when most of you have no clue how the military plans and executes. I will blame Biden for Bagram. Then I will give Biden credit for keeping Ukraine in the war.

I will blame Trump for the horrific pandemic planning. He was the man in charge.

---

The horrific pandemic planning that put us on par with the rest of the world and still allowed individual states to chart their own course? I'm good with that.


Now, about Afghanistan……
Had Trump's withdrawal plan been followed, does anyone believe the Taliban wouldn't have taken over? Certainly not as much chaos, American deaths, or equipment left behind, but it was inevitable with the stupid goat screwers in charge there.

---

We are far from being on par with the rest of the world. Trump screwed the country.

Hell Trump could not even plan for the pandemic and there was a plan in place, but he never executed it. That gives me little confidence Trump had a viable plan for Afghanistan. What was Trumps plan to withdraw? Tell me more about the plan because I have never heard about Trumps detailed plan.

---

Here is what you can be assured would not have happened.

Say around August 25th "we are still a long way from being ready, still too many people to go." (that's what happend)

With Trump it would have been more like this:

"F- -- the August 31 date then. We will set it to Halloween. Two more full months should be enough."

"We pledged to--"

Trump: "Oct 31 or later or bombs, their choice."

THAT Is what did not happen. A super power allowed itself to be run out like some Dunkirk with none of the stress and logistic limits the British were under. The timeline was Biden's.

---

Trump had a pandemic plan and could not even use it. He lied about COVID. He is not a bold, rational, competent leader.

---

Ah ha-- you dodged and shifted to covid and didn't address the Afghanistan rebuttal. Is that concession that is indeed Biden's fault and that Trump would not have obeyed some silly deadline at our expense?

---

I did not dodge anything. I posted this earlier:

Oh, so let me see. Biden wrote the OPORD. He wrote the Mission: All US forces and friendlies will redeploy from Afghanistan on 30AUG21 using the Bagram Airfield. J-4 is tasked to provide a plan of the battle handover of vehicles, weapons, and vehicles to the Afghan military. Biden wrote TRANSCOM will provide 100 planes to redeploy the US military personnel and friendlies. Biden continues: The J-3/J-4 ensure airfield operations are conducted to include transportation to the airfield from designated pickup points. J-1 will provide passenger manifests. Biden then writes 1st Brigade will provide security at the airfield. 2nd Brigade will secure routes. Biden tells the Afghan forces to keep fighting and provide security for redeployment operations. Biden then tells then tells the Joint Task Force commander to coordinate with the DOS for the count of US Nationals in Afghanistan. Biden then orders all battalions to provide pallet teams for the planes, and each company provide status on sensitive items. The chain of command is the JTF commander and Biden. Biden had a hand in all this planning? What is the point of having a SEFDEF, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Combative Commanders, JTF Commanders if Biden did all this planning? lol

If I blame Biden for Afghanistan then I will blame him for keeping Ukraine in the war due to his good planning, but I know it is not Biden driving the military. Biden is pursuing international political objectives by using the military. It is the DOD and the generals who do the military planning. This ain't rocket science.

That's true. But the rigid adherance to Aug 31 was in the WH power to change at any time. That is what caused the unraveling. The HASTE. If you are saying Milley's Pentagon is more responsible than Biden, that can fly. They are not any more credible as leaders.

Red1 said:

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If I blame Biden for Afghanistan then I will blame him for keeping Ukraine in the war due to his good planning, but I know it is not Biden driving the military. Biden is pursuing international political objectives by using the military. It is the DOD and the generals who do the military planning. This ain't rocket science.

---

Of course the admin drives the military and military policy. That is the very foundation of our nation as a strong military led by civilian leadership. There is not even any room up for debate on that IMO and it blows my mind people don't understand this basic truth. It has always been thus. Always. Our administration does not do the unit by unit planning of course but they drive the parameters, deadlines, expectations, and goals of all of our military strategy which our military then has to plan around to achieve. They are literally the dog handlers of our military. They point and the military goes.

Case in point, the fall of Afghanistan. That is on Biden for setting unrealistic, ironclad rules and it is on the military for failing to mitigate the bad case scenarios from those rules. Which again, I will concede that it was an awful hand dealt, but also again we still messed it up pretty bad all around.

This ain't rocket science.

ETA: I actually think we are probably arguing the same thing but at different levels. I think I understand the point you are trying to make but your assertion that the admin is absolved of the ramifications of military operations (that they set and enable) is kinda absurd.

Tucker just dealt with Milley. Called him Biden's Trotsky among other things.

Eliminatus said:

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The Fall of Afghanistan was the single most frustrating geopolitical failure I have witnessed yet in my life. It ALL boiled down to the top leadership, both political and military.

Afghanistan was a zero sum game. Agreed. But HOW it all ended was something that I have studied far more than most and again, poor top leadership decisions led to almost worst case scenario possible. And the extent of our failure was completely avoidable and SHOULD have been avoided with common sense and actual strategic decision making at least being addressed along with the inane political restrictions Biden arbitrarily placed upon us.

Disaster. Abject disaster and no one even remembers it today. Sickening.

---

My son had worked for almost 2 years supporting a project during the Trump administration that dealt with the management of bringing all the military gear back and how to repair and do maintenance in a non wartime environment. He received kudus from the Asst SOD at the time and gave a presentation at one point at the Air Force Academy dealing with logistical challenges.

Biden came into office. Group was dissolved and the shadow government, Austin, Milley and McKenzie cooked up an unorthodox plan to trade everything in return for cooperation and peace.

That moment when the American military was told to evacuate and make themselves scarce it was a surprise to many. Just like Obummer used to say…..I saw it it for the first time on the news just like everyone else.

Because no officer got fired, demoted, reprimanded but instead reenforces my belief that a small group of upper leadership with support of only the shadow government knew and approved of the plan. No one apologized and they actually championed the results.

This absurd plan is a reason alone to impeach Biden. The Republicans should be doing all they can to protect the constitution and the sovereignty of the US but they are doing nothing. The plan put us in a position to lose money, lost the opportunity to supply Ukraine with all kinds of weapons and machinery that they really could have used.

The war against the left has really advanced and the right is so far behind I don't think the right can turn things around. They don't have the courage to do what is necessary to protect and keep the constitution enact.

BREAKING: Biden releases statement on Kabul withdrawal pic.twitter.com/sn4IPB6xhc

— Social Media Chatter (@Clayton11241106) August 17, 2021

I am done beating a dead horse.