The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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My children are young and sex isn't a topic we will get to yet, but I have started thinking about the messages that I want to give to them, mainly because Christianity wasn't entirely helpful. My approach will be heavily emphasizing gravity and responsibility around sex. It should never be a casual thing and it can have life altering consequences. But after 18 if they are in a committed monogamous relationship with someone that is responsible and emotionally healthy, I'm not going to preach marriage as the only appropriate time to have sex.

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Definitely shouldn't be talking to them about it until puberty, but the average age of first exposure to porn is 9 years old (4th grade). And we're not talking booby pics in a playboy. If your kids have friends with phones, you can basically guarantee their seeing some nasty crap, unless you have done a solid job or prepping them. Just a heads up.

Now a question: if they have met a wonderful person at 18, and they want to have sex, why not just get married? Only reason not to get married to this wonderful person is because they may not be all that wonderful. If they have integrity, treat you well, have the same values, know how to disagree and discuss rather than argue and fight, and have the same life goals, what are you waiting for? Get married! Have sex! Lots of it! It's awesome. Tax breaks start sooner.

I may be wrong, but I do believe if every kid was trying to get married by 18-20 years old, they would be able to keep it in their pants, and they'd cut deadweight "project" boyfriend/girlfriends much faster. If you're 18 and the person you're dating still needs to grow up, cut them lose and let them waste someone else's time. Go find your spouse and go to town. Instead we have a culture of dating for many years as the norm, and people keep losers around for far too long.

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Because that's way too young in modern society.

As a practical matter, the societal purpose of marriage is to bind a man and a woman financially to impose a cost if one of them wants to leave the marriage. This serves the purpose of keeping nuclear families (meaning with children) together, for the obvious societal benefit.

There is no societal purpose in keeping a childless man and woman incentivized to remain in a marriage.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

titan said:

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Quote:

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Definitely shouldn't be talking to them about it until puberty, but the average age of first exposure to porn is 9 years old (4th grade). And we're not talking booby pics in a playboy. If your kids have friends with phones, you can basically guarantee their seeing some nasty crap, unless you have done a solid job or prepping them. Just a heads up.

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I wonder how a parent can block that out now? Like said in another post--that used to not be a threat till past junior high.

But more important, this is quite an image>

Quote:

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Now a question: if they have met a wonderful person at 18, and they want to have sex, why not just get married? Only reason not to get married to this wonderful person is because they may not be all that wonderful. If they have integrity, treat you well, have the same values, know how to disagree and discuss rather than argue and fight, and have the same life goals, what are you waiting for? Get married! Have sex! Lots of it! It's awesome. Tax breaks start sooner.

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One of the biggest barriers in the income expectation or costs. Fortunately, yes, our parents generation was completely oblivious to that. They got married when the guy still selling vacuum cleaners door to door, and similar stories.

Quote:

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I may be wrong, but I do believe if every kid was trying to get married by 18-20 years old, they would be able to keep it in their pants, and they'd cut deadweight "project" boyfriend/girlfriends much faster. If you're 18 and the person you're dating still needs to grow up, cut them lose and let them waste someone else's time. Go find your spouse and go to town. Instead we have a culture of dating for many years as the norm, and people keep losers around for far too long.

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That actually sounds like a society that would run well more often than not, and avoid the "prolonged childhood" phase and not breed a sense of entitlement. Probably avoids the European demographic crash better than the career emphasis and delayed marriage approach does.

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You can't block it. Even if you lock your kids stuff down (and you should, if you even give them the stupid phone) they'll see it from a friend. 97% of boys have seen it by end of high school. Best you can do is help them understand why it's in their best interest to avoid it. It's a self centered fantasy world that will create unrealistic expectations of the woman you will one day come to love. It's inherently at odds with marriage, which is about giving, not taking.

And Income doesn't really make a difference, we just tell kids it does. You can be two broke single people or one broke couple. You're broke either way. And as marriage tends to help people grow up, you'll likely start building equity earlier because it'll mean more. May not have your fancy wedding, but you don't really need that either.

This would need to be done in conjunction with telling people your baby doesn't need their own luxurious nursery. The baby doesn't give a crap. Be poor and have fun with it. Set your standard of living low at the beginning and you'll be better at saving later. You'll be doing just fine in your 30s like your friends. It'll just be a different adventure on the way there. We've been in a crappy 1000 sq ft rent house for the last year while our house is being built. 4 kids and the oldest is 6. It's reinforced the belief that kids really don't need very much at all. Food and attention from mom and dad is all a kid needs. A yard is definitely helpful, if you want to maintain your hearing.

BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

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Marriages existed before any of the modern religions.

BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

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Exactly. It's humorous to me like looking at the impossible burgers in HEB.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

---

Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

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Finally getting somewhere after nine and a half pages...

ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

---

Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

Gawddammit, someone had to go and end the thread.

Maybe but it's not. It was created by God to demonstrate Jesus' relationship with His followers. Paul calls it's a great mystery revealed.

That is reality. People can deny it all they want but it won't change reality.

Malibu2 said:

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The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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I'm not so much saying it's not even relatable or nave, I don't think we should be morally permissive about promiscuity or hedonism. It doesn't matter if the mores of today are way over the line and need to be reined in, we shouldn't accept any movement towards harmful behavior just because everyone is doing it.

But also, preaching that masturbation should cause you to cast out your right eye, literally or figuratively, is an actually harmful and psychologically damaging idea. Self-shame over normal biological urges is not healthy.

---

Masturbation is frowned upon because it is entirely self serving. Your sexual urges should be used in Congress with your spouse. The desire to get off is strong for a reason: so you'll have more sex. If we weren't telling kids to get married in their late 20s, it wouldn't be a huge issue.

---

Eating food and drinking water are self-serving too. The idea that sex without marriage or even having a sexual fantasy before you're married is inherently evil is a religious idea that I don't see has any merit outside of a "God (or my youth pastor) says so" worldview.

---

Drinking and eating are self serving? I mean, gluttony is of course, but meeting a basic need for survival? Would you die without sex or porn?

I can understand why it's hard to get it, but as I said to titan, it's a selfish act. Marriage and sex should be about two persons and giving of each other. Spending time in fantasy land with unrealistic expectations not only doesn't help you, but will likely harm you. Having many, many friends that have talked with me about their frustrations in the marital love lives, I can guarantee that a ton of men have unrealistic expectations of their future spouse. Where did they get those ideas?

Enjoy the female beauty. Just don't use her beauty for your own fantasy land alone time. I think we're closer in our views on sex and sexuality than it seems. I just HIGHLY encourage you to go find an awesome partner early on and get to rocking. Don't sit alone in your room with your phone and towel

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Maybe but it's not. It was created by God to demonstrate Jesus' relationship with His followers. Paul calls it's a great mystery revealed.

That is reality. People can deny it all they want but it won't change reality.

---

There are several billion people who would like a word...

The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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I'm not so much saying it's not even relatable or nave, I don't think we should be morally permissive about promiscuity or hedonism. It doesn't matter if the mores of today are way over the line and need to be reined in, we shouldn't accept any movement towards harmful behavior just because everyone is doing it.

But also, preaching that masturbation should cause you to cast out your right eye, literally or figuratively, is an actually harmful and psychologically damaging idea. Self-shame over normal biological urges is not healthy.

---

Masturbation is frowned upon because it is entirely self serving. Your sexual urges should be used in Congress with your spouse. The desire to get off is strong for a reason: so you'll have more sex. If we weren't telling kids to get married in their late 20s, it wouldn't be a huge issue.

---

Eating food and drinking water are self-serving too. The idea that sex without marriage or even having a sexual fantasy before you're married is inherently evil is a religious idea that I don't see has any merit outside of a "God (or my youth pastor) says so" worldview.

---

Drinking and eating are self serving? I mean, gluttony is of course, but meeting a basic need for survival? Would you die without sex or porn?

I can understand why it's hard to get it, but as I said to titan, it's a selfish act. Marriage and sex should be about two persons and giving of each other. Spending time in fantasy land with unrealistic expectations not only doesn't help you, but will likely harm you. Having many, many friends that have talked with me about their frustrations in the marital love lives, I can guarantee that a ton of men have unrealistic expectations of their future spouse. Where did they get those ideas?

Enjoy the female beauty. Just don't use her beauty for your own fantasy land alone time. I think we're closer in our views on sex and sexuality than it seems. I just HIGHLY encourage you to go find an awesome partner early on and get to rocking. Don't sit alone in your room with your phone and towel

---

so are all leisure activities with no redeeming value beyond personal enjoyment wrong?

How in the world do you reach that conclusion?

Malibu2 said:

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The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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I'm not so much saying it's not even relatable or nave, I don't think we should be morally permissive about promiscuity or hedonism. It doesn't matter if the mores of today are way over the line and need to be reined in, we shouldn't accept any movement towards harmful behavior just because everyone is doing it.

But also, preaching that masturbation should cause you to cast out your right eye, literally or figuratively, is an actually harmful and psychologically damaging idea. Self-shame over normal biological urges is not healthy.

---

Masturbation is frowned upon because it is entirely self serving. Your sexual urges should be used in Congress with your spouse. The desire to get off is strong for a reason: so you'll have more sex. If we weren't telling kids to get married in their late 20s, it wouldn't be a huge issue.

---

Eating food and drinking water are self-serving too. The idea that sex without marriage or even having a sexual fantasy before you're married is inherently evil is a religious idea that I don't see has any merit outside of a "God (or my youth pastor) says so" worldview.

---

That may be one of those cases of the `double-message' when reflect upon it. Since the first awareness comes at an early age (recall for some reason the `hourglass' shape of women suddenly really, really mattered) if you have everything around the response to it seemingly `taboo' --- yes -- it can have a stunting effect. But many just kind of are carried past that would be the best words for it. But you have cited one of the examples.

FratboyLegend said:

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The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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My children are young and sex isn't a topic we will get to yet, but I have started thinking about the messages that I want to give to them, mainly because Christianity wasn't entirely helpful. My approach will be heavily emphasizing gravity and responsibility around sex. It should never be a casual thing and it can have life altering consequences. But after 18 if they are in a committed monogamous relationship with someone that is responsible and emotionally healthy, I'm not going to preach marriage as the only appropriate time to have sex.

---

Definitely shouldn't be talking to them about it until puberty, but the average age of first exposure to porn is 9 years old (4th grade). And we're not talking booby pics in a playboy. If your kids have friends with phones, you can basically guarantee their seeing some nasty crap, unless you have done a solid job or prepping them. Just a heads up.

Now a question: if they have met a wonderful person at 18, and they want to have sex, why not just get married? Only reason not to get married to this wonderful person is because they may not be all that wonderful. If they have integrity, treat you well, have the same values, know how to disagree and discuss rather than argue and fight, and have the same life goals, what are you waiting for? Get married! Have sex! Lots of it! It's awesome. Tax breaks start sooner.

I may be wrong, but I do believe if every kid was trying to get married by 18-20 years old, they would be able to keep it in their pants, and they'd cut deadweight "project" boyfriend/girlfriends much faster. If you're 18 and the person you're dating still needs to grow up, cut them lose and let them waste someone else's time. Go find your spouse and go to town. Instead we have a culture of dating for many years as the norm, and people keep losers around for far too long.

---

Because that's way too young in modern society.

As a practical matter, the societal purpose of marriage is to bind a man and a woman financially to impose a cost if one of them wants to leave the marriage. This serves the purpose of keeping nuclear families (meaning with children) together, for the obvious societal benefit.

There is no societal purpose in keeping a childless man and woman incentivized to remain in a marriage.

---

But why is that too young? You can easily do just as well financially. You can spend more time with the person you love most. You get to mature faster. Only problem with our modern society tends to be everyone avoiding responsibility for as long as possible. I'd love to see a reverse in that trend. If a child is trained right, no reason they can't be ready.

BAP Enthusiast said:

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MGS said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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In a marriage this is effectively as bad emotionally as milking someone and people grieve in the same way as an actual death.

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You know what's worse? Having a husband cheat on his wife and then not being able to support the family because he's spending a year in prison.

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Perhaps if there was prison time for this behavior he would never had done it in the first place. People act like this because there is no punishment for any of it. If there was then maybe they would actually work on their marriage instead of looking elsewhere.

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Which married guy ****ed your wife?

Quote:

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Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

That bold seems very doubtful. It pre-dated Christianity, but as the structures and rituals of society never appear to have had an atheist starting point, its a safe bet it always had religious connotation and codes around it.

Silian Rail said:

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How in the world do you reach that conclusion?

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because his rational for masturbation being wrong beyond a "because i believe the bible" worldview is that it is selfish in that its only purpose is self pleasure. I'm asking if he applies that logic to all leisure activities.

Malibu2 said:

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The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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I'm not so much saying it's not even relatable or nave, I don't think we should be morally permissive about promiscuity or hedonism. It doesn't matter if the mores of today are way over the line and need to be reined in, we shouldn't accept any movement towards harmful behavior just because everyone is doing it.

But also, preaching that masturbation should cause you to cast out your right eye, literally or figuratively, is an actually harmful and psychologically damaging idea. Self-shame over normal biological urges is not healthy.

---

Masturbation is frowned upon because it is entirely self serving. Your sexual urges should be used in Congress with your spouse. The desire to get off is strong for a reason: so you'll have more sex. If we weren't telling kids to get married in their late 20s, it wouldn't be a huge issue.

---

Eating food and drinking water are self-serving too. The idea that sex without marriage or even having a sexual fantasy before you're married is inherently evil is a religious idea that I don't see has any merit outside of a "God (or my youth pastor) says so" worldview.

---

Don't you find it odd that EVERY single major religion thinks fornication and adultery are bad? Socially inheritance is very important to human beings AND every organism on the planet feels an innate need to produce offspring. Women have a HUGE advantage over men in this regard. Every baby in their womb is their genetic offspring. They have that 100% certainty. (Maybe this is why we hate them )

The only way a man can ensure with 100% certainty that his child is his genetic offspring is by having exclusive access to a woman's womb. This is why Female viginity makes sense and Male virginity is irrelevant. It also explains all the religions co opting things about the marriage contract. A man gets exclusive access to the uterus in exchange for protection and providing for the women. Basturds don't inherit to encourage male fidelity and because the legitimate sons need the resources to take care of their elderly mothers.

All of this made until 1980 when paternity tests became highly accurate, cheap and available to the general public. We still haven't reconciled this fact.

Do all leisurely activities involve fantasizing over a naked woman and pleasuring yourself? Do all leisurely activities create false expectations of a loving relationship? Do all leisurely activities increase impotence?

The funny thing now is that it's not just the Church teaching this stuff. You have mainstream Hollywood coming out against porn now. They may not go as far as the Church does, but even secular society recognizes some personal limit (not trying to outlaw masturbation) is needed. We would just disagree on the limit. Go have sex with your wife, dammit. Put your phone down. If you don't have a wife, go get one. Love the heck out of her and have more sexy time

titan said:

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Quote:

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Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

That bold seems very doubtful. It pre-dated Christianity, but as the structures and rituals of society never appear to have had an atheist starting point, its a safe bet it always had religious connotation and codes around it.

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This. Even the pagans conducted their weddings in the sight of "the gods."

BlackGoldAg2011 said:

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Silian Rail said:

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How in the world do you reach that conclusion?

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because his rational for masturbation being wrong beyond a "because i believe the bible" worldview is that it is selfish in that its only purpose is self pleasure. I'm asking if he applies that logic to all leisure activities.

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You started off trying to have a real conversation and have devolved into "masturbation is the same as one person riding a tandem bike". There's nothing wrong with taking pleasure from activities, there is something wrong with stealing a gift that is supposed to be for two people to enjoy together and keeping it all for yourself. Masturbation is a bug of the human condition, not a feature.

The Banned said:

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Do all leisurely activities involve fantasizing over a naked woman and pleasuring yourself? Do all leisurely activities create false expectations of a loving relationship?

The funny thing now is that it's not just the Church teaching this stuff. You have mainstream Hollywood coming out against porn now. They may not go as far as the Church does, but even secular society recognizes some personal limit (not trying to outlaw masturbation) is needed. We would just disagree on the limit.

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no they don't but that wasn't the reason you originally gave for why masturbation was wrong outside of a biblical world view.

titan said:

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Quote:

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Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

That bold seems very doubtful. It pre-dated Christianity, but as the structures and rituals of society never appear to have had an atheist starting point, its a safe bet it always had religious connotation and codes around it.

---

There's no way of knowing one way or the other (we don't know anything about the foundations of civilization), but many species practice monogamy and mate for life. It's not out of the question that such a practice by humans predates religion even if it was not codified or formalized in any way.

The Banned said:

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FratboyLegend said:

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The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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My children are young and sex isn't a topic we will get to yet, but I have started thinking about the messages that I want to give to them, mainly because Christianity wasn't entirely helpful. My approach will be heavily emphasizing gravity and responsibility around sex. It should never be a casual thing and it can have life altering consequences. But after 18 if they are in a committed monogamous relationship with someone that is responsible and emotionally healthy, I'm not going to preach marriage as the only appropriate time to have sex.

---

Definitely shouldn't be talking to them about it until puberty, but the average age of first exposure to porn is 9 years old (4th grade). And we're not talking booby pics in a playboy. If your kids have friends with phones, you can basically guarantee their seeing some nasty crap, unless you have done a solid job or prepping them. Just a heads up.

Now a question: if they have met a wonderful person at 18, and they want to have sex, why not just get married? Only reason not to get married to this wonderful person is because they may not be all that wonderful. If they have integrity, treat you well, have the same values, know how to disagree and discuss rather than argue and fight, and have the same life goals, what are you waiting for? Get married! Have sex! Lots of it! It's awesome. Tax breaks start sooner.

I may be wrong, but I do believe if every kid was trying to get married by 18-20 years old, they would be able to keep it in their pants, and they'd cut deadweight "project" boyfriend/girlfriends much faster. If you're 18 and the person you're dating still needs to grow up, cut them lose and let them waste someone else's time. Go find your spouse and go to town. Instead we have a culture of dating for many years as the norm, and people keep losers around for far too long.

---

Because that's way too young in modern society.

As a practical matter, the societal purpose of marriage is to bind a man and a woman financially to impose a cost if one of them wants to leave the marriage. This serves the purpose of keeping nuclear families (meaning with children) together, for the obvious societal benefit.

There is no societal purpose in keeping a childless man and woman incentivized to remain in a marriage.

---

But why is that too young? You can easily do just as well financially. You can spend more time with the person you love most. You get to mature faster. Only problem with our modern society tends to be everyone avoiding responsibility for as long as possible. I'd love to see a reverse in that trend. If a child is trained right, no reason they can't be ready.

---

In today's world, I don't think you will find too many parents that agree that 18 is old enough to have children.

You will not find too many more that agree that 18 is an appropriate age to get married.

At age 18 your life experience includes high school, full stop. There is far more to developing life experience than attending high school.

Lastly, I do not think the bolded portion above is borne out in statistics.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

---

Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

Atheism is a new concept, irreligious marriage has never existed. Those Hunter/gatherer tribes absolutely believed in the supernatural and had their own specific set of spiritual beliefs. It is absolutely a concept that went hand in hand with religion.

The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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The Banned said:

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Malibu2 said:

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I'm not so much saying it's not even relatable or nave, I don't think we should be morally permissive about promiscuity or hedonism. It doesn't matter if the mores of today are way over the line and need to be reined in, we shouldn't accept any movement towards harmful behavior just because everyone is doing it.

But also, preaching that masturbation should cause you to cast out your right eye, literally or figuratively, is an actually harmful and psychologically damaging idea. Self-shame over normal biological urges is not healthy.

---

Masturbation is frowned upon because it is entirely self serving. Your sexual urges should be used in Congress with your spouse. The desire to get off is strong for a reason: so you'll have more sex. If we weren't telling kids to get married in their late 20s, it wouldn't be a huge issue.

---

Eating food and drinking water are self-serving too. The idea that sex without marriage or even having a sexual fantasy before you're married is inherently evil is a religious idea that I don't see has any merit outside of a "God (or my youth pastor) says so" worldview.

---

Drinking and eating are self serving? I mean, gluttony is of course, but meeting a basic need for survival? Would you die without sex or porn?

I can understand why it's hard to get it, but as I said to titan, it's a selfish act. Marriage and sex should be about two persons and giving of each other. Spending time in fantasy land with unrealistic expectations not only doesn't help you, but will likely harm you. Having many, many friends that have talked with me about their frustrations in the marital love lives, I can guarantee that a ton of men have unrealistic expectations of their future spouse. Where did they get those ideas?

Enjoy the female beauty. Just don't use her beauty for your own fantasy land alone time. I think we're closer in our views on sex and sexuality than it seems. I just HIGHLY encourage you to go find an awesome partner early on and get to rocking. Don't sit alone in your room with your phone and towel

---

I do agree with you that we are fairly similar. Despite being mostly secular, I do have a mostly anti-porn stance. As you said, I think best case it warps man's expectations around sex, and worst case a lot of what happens in the industry is not two adults exchanging money to have sex on camera, but far less consent with human trafficking concerns. I think most people are wise to avoid porn.

That said, I think pointing out the various harms of self indulgence of any sort does not preclude one from still enjoying indulgent acts responsibly. I mean, a wet dream is a universal biological experience for males. The idea that the first ejaculation should be with your spouse or you're going to make God sad is one that I don't think can be supported by biology nor other moral principles about harming yourself, others, or their property.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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titan said:

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Quote:

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Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

That bold seems very doubtful. It pre-dated Christianity, but as the structures and rituals of society never appear to have had an atheist starting point, its a safe bet it always had religious connotation and codes around it.

---

There's no way of knowing one way or the other (we don't know anything about the foundations of civilization), but many species practice monogamy and mate for life. It's not out of the question that such a practice by humans predates religion even if it was not codified or formalized in any way.

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I don't believe this exists. Man is religious by nature. All men worship, it's just a question of "Who" or "What."

Silian Rail said:

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BlackGoldAg2011 said:

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Silian Rail said:

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How in the world do you reach that conclusion?

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because his rational for masturbation being wrong beyond a "because i believe the bible" worldview is that it is selfish in that its only purpose is self pleasure. I'm asking if he applies that logic to all leisure activities.

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You started off trying to have a real conversation and have devolved into "masturbation is the same as one person riding a tandem bike". There's nothing wrong with taking pleasure from activities, there is something wrong with stealing a gift that is supposed to be for two people to enjoy together and keeping it all for yourself. Masturbation is a bug of the human condition, not a feature.

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i never made that argument. i questioned his reasoning. for the record, i never even disagreed with the premise that it's morally wrong, i was just pressing him on the reasoning he gave, because it was lacking. additionally, the idea that sex is a gift to be enjoyed by a married couple does not have any grounds outside of a religious worldview (its actually nonsense outside of a religious worldview), and i say that as someone who agrees with your statement on it being a gift for marriage.

JimboFFisher said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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MGS said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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In a marriage this is effectively as bad emotionally as milking someone and people grieve in the same way as an actual death.

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You know what's worse? Having a husband cheat on his wife and then not being able to support the family because he's spending a year in prison.

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Perhaps if there was prison time for this behavior he would never had done it in the first place. People act like this because there is no punishment for any of it. If there was then maybe they would actually work on their marriage instead of looking elsewhere.

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Which married guy ****ed your wife?

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Arachnophobia? Heh, you must want to have sex with spiders!

BAP Enthusiast said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

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I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

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Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

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Atheism is a new concept, irreligious marriage has never existed. Those Hunter/gatherer tribes absolutely believed in the supernatural and had their own specific set of spiritual beliefs. It is absolutely a concept that went hand in hand with religion.

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1. Prove it

2. You can't, because there is no recorded history of early human practices like marriage or religion

ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

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I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

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Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

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Atheism is a new concept, irreligious marriage has never existed. Those Hunter/gatherer tribes absolutely believed in the supernatural and had their own specific set of spiritual beliefs. It is absolutely a concept that went hand in hand with religion.

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1. Prove it

2. You can't, because there is no recorded of early human practices like marriage or religion

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Did you say there is no recorded history of early human practices like marriage or religion?

ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

---

Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

Atheism is a new concept, irreligious marriage has never existed. Those Hunter/gatherer tribes absolutely believed in the supernatural and had their own specific set of spiritual beliefs. It is absolutely a concept that went hand in hand with religion.

---

1. Prove it

2. You can't, because there is no recorded of early human practices like marriage or religion

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We know the hunter/gatherer tribes were spiritual.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-016-9260-0

It began with animism and then spread to shamanism and ancestors worship. Hunter/gatherer tribes were absolutely spiritual, they were not remotely like modern atheists or agnostics.

BAP Enthusiast said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Nor do I. Like I side it's just something I've wondered and not something to enforce one way or another.

But marriage is an institution established and defined by God which is to manifest the relationship between Jesus and His followers.

So for non believers to participate In that is like vegans wanting to eat food that looks and taste like meat but isn't meat.

---

I agree with this, none of it makes sense at all. What is the purpose of marriage without religion? At that point it's a civil Union for tax purposes, it doesn't have any real meaning.

---

Maybe... Just maybe... And stay with me now... Voluntary monogamy and personal devotion to a spouse doesn't require a religious foundation or consecration. Maybe marriage isn't a Christian or even religious institution, but a human institution incorporated by many religions.

---

Atheism is a new concept, irreligious marriage has never existed. Those Hunter/gatherer tribes absolutely believed in the supernatural and had their own specific set of spiritual beliefs. It is absolutely a concept that went hand in hand with religion.

---

1. Prove it

2. You can't, because there is no recorded of early human practices like marriage or religion

---

We know the hunter/gatherer tribes were spiritual.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-016-9260-0

It began with animism and then spread to shamanism and ancestors worship. Hunter/gathered tribes were absolutely spiritual, they were not remotely like modern atheists or agnostics.

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And those that predated them?