texagbeliever said:

---

I think it is always best to look at your own biases and see if that influences your answer.

You likely recommended the vaccine earlier on. You want to have given good medical advice. Therefore you are biased to believe the vaccine was effective at least early on. I'm not saying that proves you wrong; I am just pointing out a sunk cost logic fallacy you will have to overcome. Infectionag is in the same boat that he was certainly more adamant and vocal at least in his stance on texags. That's okay there are many mistakes I allow myself to be blinded to because of a bias.

At the beginning of the vaccine people wanted it to work. They had hope that it would work. It became more of a religion then a science. When that happens, normally less than ideal results follow.

---

But again, you continue to ignore the fact that it has been clearly demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that the covid vaccines DO reduce the chances of severe disease and death dramatically, especially with respect to the earlier variants and higher risk groups. Very few things in the history of medicine have been as extensively studied in such a short period of time and the data from around the world is OVERWHELMING.

Again, I'm sorry those in power lied (or simply through their own ignorance genuinely believed) and said you wouldn't get covid if you got the vaccine. That was never going to be true. It's never been true for any vaccine and particularly one for a novel, rapidly mutating RNA virus. And it's also not true that boosters are going to do much anymore, given the prevalence of natural infection/vaccination already. But they absolutely, beyond all statistical doubt at this point, saved lives.

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I think it is always best to look at your own biases and see if that influences your answer.

You likely recommended the vaccine earlier on. You want to have given good medical advice. Therefore you are biased to believe the vaccine was effective at least early on. I'm not saying that proves you wrong; I am just pointing out a sunk cost logic fallacy you will have to overcome. Infectionag is in the same boat that he was certainly more adamant and vocal at least in his stance on texags. That's okay there are many mistakes I allow myself to be blinded to because of a bias.

At the beginning of the vaccine people wanted it to work. They had hope that it would work. It became more of a religion then a science. When that happens, normally less than ideal results follow.

---

Respectfully disagree. That was not my thought process at all.
I think the data clearly shows that vaccinated folks did better when Covid was more severe.

And to be honest, I was biased against the vaccine initially.

---

His post is entirely projection. The refusal to acknowledge such extensive data that conflicts with a viewpoint he formed long before it was reasonable to form it is exactly what he's doing.

Now there is literally nothing he could ever be shown that would allow him to acknowledge something different.

The logic fallacy exists on both sides. Did the vaccine help for its original intended purpose, which was protection against the original COVID-19 strain? Yes. Should the vaccine be pushed on these newer strains? No, because as we have learned from influenza vaccines, they are ineffective against the non-targeted strain of virus. The problem with every argument today is we are using current data to brush off it's original intended purpose, on both sides. Those against vaccination use omicron to reason why it didn't work for the original. Those for vaccination use original strain to reason why it will work for omicron. That's the logic fallacy here. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Harry Stone said:

---

The logic fallacy exists on both sides. Did the vaccine help for its original intended purpose, which was protection against the original COVID-19 strain? Yes. Should the vaccine be pushed on these newer strains? No, because as we have learned from influenza vaccines, they are ineffective against the non-targeted strain of virus. The problem with every argument today is we are using current data to brush off it's original intended purpose, on both sides. Those against vaccination use omicron to reason why it didn't work for the original. Those for vaccination use original strain to reason why it will work for omicron. That's the logic fallacy here. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

---

Who on here is arguing that it works well for omicron?

My family doc told me to definitely NOT take the boosters. I believe I'll just go with his advice.

dermdoc said:

---

Harry Stone said:

---

The logic fallacy exists on both sides. Did the vaccine help for its original intended purpose, which was protection against the original COVID-19 strain? Yes. Should the vaccine be pushed on these newer strains? No, because as we have learned from influenza vaccines, they are ineffective against the non-targeted strain of virus. The problem with every argument today is we are using current data to brush off it's original intended purpose, on both sides. Those against vaccination use omicron to reason why it didn't work for the original. Those for vaccination use original strain to reason why it will work for omicron. That's the logic fallacy here. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

---

Who on here is arguing that it works well for omicron?

---

nobody here. im talking in broad generalizations.

Harry Stone said:

---

The logic fallacy exists on both sides. Did the vaccine help for its original intended purpose, which was protection against the original COVID-19 strain? Yes. Should the vaccine be pushed on these newer strains? No, because as we have learned from influenza vaccines, they are ineffective against the non-targeted strain of virus. The problem with every argument today is we are using current data to brush off it's original intended purpose, on both sides. Those against vaccination use omicron to reason why it didn't work for the original. Those for vaccination use original strain to reason why it will work for omicron. That's the logic fallacy here. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

---

I believe everyone in this thread has acknowledged the decrease in severe disease/death reduction with respect to newer variants.

I believe the vaccines worked. My Dr feels the same. I have given Trump credit for getting the process done in record time. And as most everyone knows, I am a Never Trumper.

I didn't take the boosters that have followed. I don't think they are all that beneficial. My Dr feels the same.

Ags77 said:

---

I believe the vaccines worked. My Dr feels the same. I have given Trump credit for getting the process done in record time. And as most everyone knows, I am a Never Trumper.

I didn't take the boosters that have followed. I don't think they are all that beneficial. My Dr feels the same.

---

Agree with this.

Harry Stone said:

---

The logic fallacy exists on both sides. Did the vaccine help for its original intended purpose, which was protection against the original COVID-19 strain? Yes. Should the vaccine be pushed on these newer strains? No, because as we have learned from influenza vaccines, they are ineffective against the non-targeted strain of virus. The problem with every argument today is we are using current data to brush off it's original intended purpose, on both sides. Those against vaccination use omicron to reason why it didn't work for the original. Those for vaccination use original strain to reason why it will work for omicron. That's the logic fallacy here. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

---

No it did not. You have to identify who's purpose you are talking about. In terms of how it was being sold to the public by the vax pushers, it was promoted as being a prevention against covid infection. It does not prevent covid infection.

I will agree though that it would decrease the severity of the infection as it was actually designed to do, but that wasn't how it was sold to us initially.

With Delta, the majority of people dying or ending up in the hospital were not vaccinated so it's hard to make the argument that the vaccines were completely ineffective. With omicron you would be just as protected if you ate a dog biscuit or took the vaccine. It just doesn't appear to provide any protection at all or lessen the symptoms. It certainly isn't a vaccine on the traditional sense that it prevents illness.

And, masks were never effective. I've lost a lot of respect for the medical community after this experiment and it might not ever come back.

Infection_Ag11 said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I think it is always best to look at your own biases and see if that influences your answer.

You likely recommended the vaccine earlier on. You want to have given good medical advice. Therefore you are biased to believe the vaccine was effective at least early on. I'm not saying that proves you wrong; I am just pointing out a sunk cost logic fallacy you will have to overcome. Infectionag is in the same boat that he was certainly more adamant and vocal at least in his stance on texags. That's okay there are many mistakes I allow myself to be blinded to because of a bias.

At the beginning of the vaccine people wanted it to work. They had hope that it would work. It became more of a religion then a science. When that happens, normally less than ideal results follow.

---

But again, you continue to ignore the fact that it has been clearly demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that the covid vaccines DO reduce the chances of severe disease and death dramatically, especially with respect to the earlier variants and higher risk groups. Very few things in the history of medicine have been as extensively studied in such a short period of time and the data from around the world is OVERWHELMING.

Again, I'm sorry those in power lied (or simply through their own ignorance genuinely believed) and said you wouldn't get covid if you got the vaccine. That was never going to be true. It's never been true for any vaccine and particularly one for a novel, rapidly mutating RNA virus. And it's also not true that boosters are going to do much anymore, given the prevalence of natural infection/vaccination already. But they absolutely, beyond all statistical doubt at this point, saved lives.

---

Do you know why the statistic that women earn 78 cents of the dollar that men earn doesn't imply sexism? It is because there are causal variables within the subgroups of women and men that explain the wage gap. The same can be said with vaccines. Rural populations and poor urban populations were less likely to get vaccinated. Two groups that are also less likely to see a doctor early on when sick. Two groups with less access to medical care. Two groups who are statistically less healthy to begin with.

The statistics that they reduce severe disease and death are weak. And just like with the efficacy of reduction in transmission and infection, are most likely to be proven false given sufficient time. You are so quick to spike the ball and we are at best in the 1st 5 minutes of the first quarter. Your arrogance in claiming victory just goes to show your inability to think on longer timelines. Which is fine it isn't a trait for everyone.

Anyone else find it funny how covid variants became less deadly for the non-vaccinated at the same time they became less deadly for the vaccinated. Because just like history shows, viruses become less deadly over time. Which can give the appearance of vaccines becoming lifesavers when reality is they aren't. Look hospitals definitely juiced the stats to make covid appear worse than it was (the financial incentive was there and arguably political one was too). To trust the data from people with an incentive to lie is not a smart bet I'd want to make.

Now to be clear I don't deride people for being vaccinated. I tell them they made the best choice given the information available. I don't think it is particularly dangerous I just also don't think it was particularly effective. The main thing is I want people to own up to being wrong. That is the important lesson to learn.

It's not just about the vaccines. This disease did not hit all sections of the population the same. If you were over 65, then your risks went up dramatically. If you were in poor health, your risks went up dramatically.

All of this was known by June 2020, what happened next was a complete travesty. Instead of being clear with people that yes, you may get sick, yes you have an incredibly high rate of surviving this, yes, people are going to die. And one of the docs is right, even a fraction of a percent results in millions dead.

However, we're now living with the back end of incredibly poor policy, shutdowns, over spending on multiple fronts. More people will suffer due to the 'cure' efforts than the actual disease. And many have zero faith the government or our medical leaders are being honest and upfront with what actually happened.

My 2cents. Backed by reality.

Just curious, who are "these people" who should own up about being "wrong"?

And how do we know whether the vaccines prevented people from getting it?

That would be an impossible study to do IMHO.

I know people who got the vaccine still could get Covid but I do not know how you could compare vax vs non vax unless you knowingly exposed equal numbers of the same group in the exact same environmental conditions. Which of course, can not be done due to ethics.

With all due respect, you seem to be the one with biases and preconceptions. Which is fine and you have every right to not take what you do not want to.

I do take exception when you accuse people and docs for biases when that may not be the case at all.

They just disagree with you.

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

Anytime someone is forced to take any type of medication wether it be a vaccine, stomach meds, psychological pills it's not good and won't sit well with the general public. If the US public ( and Drs in general and entire world for that matter) were lied to by the pharma companies then their will be repercussions. Data from all over the world isn't looking good on efficacy and excess deaths (much of this data is now starting to show up via life insurance companies .. if you want it go look it up.). This new information about Pfizer cutting testing short early on won't sit well with many many people in the general public. It's also very questionable when our own CDC and FDA chooses to suppress information from the military showing adverse effects on the vaccine itself, why was that data suppressed? …. The mask issue is another entirely questionable issue when study after study after study showed these mask don't help at all. There are uneasy feelings about all of this .. the more negative data that comes out the more angry people will grow … this is probably far far far from over.

And one last thing, please Let's not push these experimental vaccines (not even sure they should be allowed to be called vaccines ) on young children ….

First of all, I've come around to the conclusion that the vax will probably do more long term harm than good.

Secondly, I've read quite a bit about this topic until the science makes my eyes bleed. Honestly, I can't say it's certifiably damaging, as I don't believe all of the data is available. OTOH, I can't say it was effective for all humans, or any humans, maybe it is/was.

The way I make my decisions on this was to read as much as possible, good and bad, and attempt to form a reasonable conclusion. The fact the government pushed it so incredibly hard, to the point of coercion, is a decent indicator, and would have been necessary were the disease genuinely dangerous to healthy humans. It's also telling the Pfizer wanted to wait 75 F'ing years to release all of the information.

Here's my question, exactly HOW does the medical establishment know from April 2020 on, what damage the vaccine did/does to humans who've been sick and will get sick. There are a million things that cause sickness. If the patient was healthy with no prior issues, I'd seriously look at the vaccine. IF good stats find the vax to be damaging, does anyone here believe the government (Right or Left) will allow that information to made public? I defer to my doctor buddies, but still ask a lot of questions.

Long story short, I believe the vax didn't help near as much as I believe the damage it will do, but can't back it up 100% due to education and knowledge. However, this whole fiasco has done irreparable harm to the medical establishment. So many docs were either threatened, believed, or believed at first, that it's next to impossible to know who's telling the truth and not following the marching orders.

To me, this is the most important topic. The government took over a lot of medicine in 2014, and they've already F'd up a $500 billion dollar industry so half of the country doesn't know who to believe. The $500 billion dollar quote is a guess, but it's probably close to the entire medical establishment.

I hope this conveys the thoughts and feelings of many here, as we can't really know, much like me knowing proper loads for bridges, buildings, and stadiums. I'm not an engineer. However, like any good American should do, we can read and learn.

They've shredded all credibility and there is little to nothing they can do to restore that.

Oh, and I very much realize that Trump was the first president to push this.

Unfortunately, he relied on his medical establishment to tell him the truth, or it appears that way. I would assume even the docs here don't like Fauci and believe him to be a horrible ambassador for infectious diseases. He should have been canned after the HIV/AIDS fiasco 30 years ago.

fullback44 said:

---

Anytime someone is forced to take any type of medication wether it be a vaccine, stomach meds, psychological pills it's not good and won't sit well with the general public. If the US public ( and Drs in general and entire world for that matter) were lied to by the pharma companies then their will be repercussions. Data from all over the world isn't looking good on efficacy and excess deaths (much of this data is now starting to show up via life insurance companies .. if you want it go look it up.). This new information about Pfizer cutting testing short early on won't sit well with many many people in the general public. It's also very questionable when our own CDC and FDA chooses to suppress information from the military showing adverse effects on the vaccine itself, why was that data suppressed? …. The mask issue is another entirely questionable issue when study after study after study showed these mask don't help at all. There are uneasy feelings about all of this .. the more negative data that comes out the more angry people will grow … this is probably far far far from over.

And one last thing, please Let's not push these experimental vaccines (not even sure they should be allowed to be called vaccines ) on young children ….

---

We're any of y'all forced to take the vaccine?

I know I wasn't.

My Moh's surgeon is stridently anti vax and the hospital here did not make her take it.

texagbeliever said:

---

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

---

How do you know #1 for a fact. Glad to be educated if you have a link.

And, IMHO, #2 is to be determined unless you have a link to stats on large study groups.

Bill Gates and Dr Fraudci both need to spend the rest of their lives in federal prison.

I agree with you on 5,6, and 7.

Disagree on the hospital and nursing home isolation during the first year.

Look what happened when Cuomo sent Covid patients to nh.

Disagree on #9. I agree you should have the right not to take a vax but those who disagree and get the vax should not be looked down on as that is hypocritical imho.

And as far as the last point, I think that is unknowable. As I stated above, you can not tell whether the vax or therapeutic decreased transmission because you can not ethically do the necessary studies.

I believe it did have therapeutic benefit as noted by decreased mortality and morbidity when Covid was more severe.

And I agree with all your healthy suggestions but have had several friends and patients die who did everything you listed.

Obviously, your mind is made up.

I will say I know a ton of docs and there was no conspiracy or "going along with the template mentality" that I saw.

Muy said:

---

Bill Gates and Dr Fraudci both need to spend the rest of their lives in federal prison.

---

Maybe. I would like to see where the taxpayer's money for the "free" vaccine ended up.

But I know Hunter Biden should be in jail.

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

---

How do you know #1 for a fact. Glad to be educated if you have a link.

And, IMHO, #2 is to be determined unless you have a link to stats on large study groups.

---

Plenty of viral load studies have demonstrated the vaccinated aren't less likely to spread.
Based on the fact that every vaccinated person i know has caught covid the effectiveness is non-existent. I didn't think educated persons argued about whether or not it prevented infection.

texagbeliever said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

---

How do you know #1 for a fact. Glad to be educated if you have a link.

And, IMHO, #2 is to be determined unless you have a link to stats on large study groups.

---

Plenty of viral load studies have demonstrated the vaccinated aren't less likely to spread.
Based on the fact that every vaccinated person i know has caught covid the effectiveness is non-existent. I didn't think educated persons argued about whether or not it prevented infection.

---

Aren't less likely to spread is totally different than whether it prevents some from getting it. And anecdotal stories are just that, anecdotal stories. I have a ton also.

And nice snide comment.

texagbeliever said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

---

How do you know #1 for a fact. Glad to be educated if you have a link.

And, IMHO, #2 is to be determined unless you have a link to stats on large study groups.

---

Plenty of viral load studies have demonstrated the vaccinated aren't less likely to spread.
Based on the fact that every vaccinated person i know has caught covid the effectiveness is non-existent. I didn't think educated persons argued about whether or not it prevented infection.

---

Derm and InfectionAg,

This is exactly my point in my original post. People will not discern the difference between the vaccine for the original and new variants.

Harry Stone said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

---

How do you know #1 for a fact. Glad to be educated if you have a link.

And, IMHO, #2 is to be determined unless you have a link to stats on large study groups.

---

Plenty of viral load studies have demonstrated the vaccinated aren't less likely to spread.
Based on the fact that every vaccinated person i know has caught covid the effectiveness is non-existent. I didn't think educated persons argued about whether or not it prevented infection.

---

Derm and InfectionAg,

This is exactly my point in my original post. People will not discern the difference between the vaccine for the original and new variants.

---

Oh you mean the vaccine that was available just in time for Delta/Omicron at least 2 significant mutations from the version the vaccine was originally developed to fight against. Yeah it might have been effective versus the original strain but it was too slow.

Harry Stone said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

---

How do you know #1 for a fact. Glad to be educated if you have a link.

And, IMHO, #2 is to be determined unless you have a link to stats on large study groups.

---

Plenty of viral load studies have demonstrated the vaccinated aren't less likely to spread.
Based on the fact that every vaccinated person i know has caught covid the effectiveness is non-existent. I didn't think educated persons argued about whether or not it prevented infection.

---

Derm and InfectionAg,

This is exactly my point in my original post. People will not discern the difference between the vaccine for the original and new variants.

---

Fair enough. As I stated above, I know the difference and try to educate my patients. And that is all I can do to my knowledge.

Despite the post above, I do have some education.

I love watching the COVID board die in real time.

Is there enough crow to feed everyone?

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

People who should admit they were wrong are those who claimed:

1. Vaccine was effective at reducing transmission or infection
2. Vaccine was safe
3. Masks reduce the spread of covid
4. Isolation/shutting down the country is an appropriate way of reacting to a virus outbreak
5. People who accused individuals of being selfish for not getting vaccinated especially younger people
6. Anyone who pushed for vaccination of children
7. Anyone who contributed to fear stats that children were overwhelming hospital systems with covid (when covid was just something they had but not the reason for admission nor the reason for the stay).
8. People who encouraged policies that isolated the hospitalized/nursing home individuals from outside interaction.
9. People who supported/went along with their company enforcing vaccine mandates
10. People who call the covid vaccine a vaccine when reality is it is at best a therapeutic.

All of the above was wrong. I'm not saying it was knowable all the above was wrong when decisions had to be made; I'm just saying it is knowable now.

It is also worth noting the BEST thing an individual could do to reduce hospitalization/death was:
1. Improve diet (lose weight)
2. Exercise
3. Get sunlight
4. Sleep appropriate amounts.
5. Reduce alcohol/drug consumption
6. Healthy human interaction

All of the above if encouraged would have had a way bigger impact on reducing death. Yet our political leaders at the behest of doctors: shut down gyms, closed churches, made people mask up, isolated the elderly, closed playgrounds, instituted curfews, etc.

---

How do you know #1 for a fact. Glad to be educated if you have a link.

And, IMHO, #2 is to be determined unless you have a link to stats on large study groups.

---

Plenty of viral load studies have demonstrated the vaccinated aren't less likely to spread.
Based on the fact that every vaccinated person i know has caught covid the effectiveness is non-existent. I didn't think educated persons argued about whether or not it prevented infection.

---

Aren't less likely to spread is totally different than whether it prevents some from getting it. And anecdotal stories are just that, anecdotal stories. I have a ton also.

And nice snide comment.

---

My educated comment was serious. I have yet to encounter someone who makes that argument after June of 2022. The president of my company even ceded point 1 when he was trying to convince me to get vaccinated. His argument was more of the it might reduce the risk of hospitalization/death which is a valid concern for the company because of the disruption of business. Now I don't interact with doctors so maybe they don't. The world outside of that doesn't though.

I didn't think ANYONE still thought the pre-therapeutic was even remotely effective.