BAP Enthusiast said:

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The entire point of this thread is about the job itself, not the remote work. That is, the job itself is meaningless and not needed. The remote aspect of the job isn't the problem, it's that they aren't doing anything at all that contributes to the company beyond answering some emails and shuffling paper around.

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Product manager is definitely a valuable job. Sounds like these girls are only working on a small part of it, but they're also really young and PM is a job that takes awhile to learn since it touches so many parts of the business (engineering, marketing, finance, legal, business strategy, etc).

As for the pool... Who knows, maybe it's lunch time. If they **** around too much they'll eventually get canned. If they're moving products forward and responding to product needs, they won't.

BAP Enthusiast said:

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Signel said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Signel said:

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I can work my job from anywhere. The downside is so can an Indian engineer. The good news is that the world is rapidly segregating by country so outsourcing is becoming riskier.

I've literally worked on the beach before. What does it matter if the work gets done? Why are people offended when the path they chose means they can't? Accepting the risk of a layoff to have the ability to have more flexibility shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. The world was ripped out of the old mentality due to covid. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle, and if you want to stay competitive, you better recognize it now. Hold employees accountable for the tasks assigned. Remote work is a benefit that can easily be removed.....

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You actually work, the people do these jobs don't. There is a big difference.

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The big difference is the company is willing to accept that. My team works remote most of the time, but I track their projects and work success.

People need to change their mindsets.

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The entire point of this thread is about the job itself, not the remote work. That is, the job itself is meaningless and not needed. The remote aspect of the job isn't the problem, it's that they aren't doing anything at all that contributes to the company beyond answering some emails and shuffling paper around.

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Good Project Managers can make or break a project. The ones that just forward emails and always defer to another person since they're the "expert" are worthless. A good PM puts their heart and soul in the project and takes the time and effort to understand as much as they can about the business processes and the minut details. They are looking for gaps and risks and spending a lot of time keeping everyone focused and on track. A good PM is the moderator during meetings and has to have the leadership abilities to keep the discussion productive and not going in a hundred different directions. A good PM is worth their weight in gold.

These girls are only fans material. They probably only have a corporate job so they can report a legitimate income stream.

From a customer standpoint, I would like someone telling product development what to build. I've used plenty of software that had persistent bugs or lacked functionality in core features (like the purpose of the software) while they kept trying to develop and push out new features that added little benefit. It felt like whoever was in charge of development had an idea of what the software should do, but they didn't know our industry, our problems, or where their software lacked in key functions.

Autodesk is the perfect example. Their AEC software is great for the A/E side, but the C is an afterthought. I used to use it daily, and it was buggy AF for years while they occasionally pushed out features I had 0 use for. On top of that, some of the features I needed to use had functionality problems that made them useless. When they started trying to move to a cloud model, we tried some of their cloud tools and, lo and behold, if you weren't a designer, they sucked. We felt like we were getting asked to pay huge subscription fees to beta test it was so bad. Their product developers knew what they wanted, but they had no ****ing clue what we needed.

DallasAg 94 said:

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So, what she describes is actually true. I work for a Tech Company.

We have Priduct Development and Product Managers. In our company, PM tells PD WHAT to build, and then PD builds what they want because they know PM doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

Over the last 5 years, PM has become bloated. It is an area where we "diversify."

We have added SO many people in that organization. When you look at their backgrounds... it is sad.

We had one female that was running her own winery prior to joining. Another sat on the board of not-for-profits.

We have also added digital sales teams. That are attempts to cut the cost of specialized sales roles.

While she may make $60k from the pool... there are likely 5-10 people directly linked to her making $180k+ to actually make the company money.

And these jobs won't go away because diversity is far more important than developing products people will buy.

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We had a round of layoffs and the PMs, Scrum Masters, CX Managers were the first to go. I knew it was just a matter of time for the scrum masters. Too many and they get paid way too much to do very little.

Zarathustra said:

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Signel said:

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I can work my job from anywhere. The downside is so can an Indian engineer. The good news is that the world is rapidly segregating by country so outsourcing is becoming riskier.

I've literally worked on the beach before. What does it matter if the work gets done? Why are people offended when the path they chose means they can't? Accepting the risk of a layoff to have the ability to have more flexibility shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. The world was ripped out of the old mentality due to covid. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle, and if you want to stay competitive, you better recognize it now. Hold employees accountable for the tasks assigned. Remote work is a benefit that can easily be removed.....

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Posts like this are really starting to annoy me - and I'm all for hybrid work. "Doing work from anywhere" is a fallacy of the employee's point of view. They're solely referring to "I can do tasks assign to me". What the employee doesn't see is all the things they've missed because they're not connected to other people or in the office. If no one's asking them to do anything they think there's no work to be done.

You'll never hear "I started a business and I let everyone work from the beach. They're so productive!"

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There are plenty of people that do just fine doing exactly what is assigned to them to do, and not a smidgen more, and they are happy with that.

Of course, these people will never progress in their career, but they can be useful. You will always need an accounts payable clerk. If you have an AP clerk that is happy just doing that, then fine, keep them doing that with inflation raises and maybe an efficiency raise every once in a while.

Then, there are those people who actually go out and seek responsibility for outcomes. They take responsibility for the success of an activity or project. Those are the people that get raises and promotions.

There will always be both kinds of people out there. If your organization is too small to have dedicated task masters, cut'em.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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From a customer standpoint, I would like someone telling product development what to build. I've used plenty of software that had persistent bugs or lacked functionality in core features (like the purpose of the software) while they kept trying to develop and push out new features that added little benefit. It felt like whoever was in charge of development had an idea of what the software should do, but they didn't know our industry, our problems, or where their software lacked in key functions.

Autodesk is the perfect example. Their AEC software is great for the A/E side, but the C is an afterthought. I used to use it daily, and it was buggy AF for years while they occasionally pushed out features I had 0 use for. On top of that, some of the features I needed to use had functionality problems that made them useless. When they started trying to move to a cloud model, we tried some of their cloud tools and, lo and behold, if you weren't a designer, they sucked. We felt like we were getting asked to pay huge subscription fees to beta test it was so bad. Their product developers knew what they wanted, but they had no ****ing clue what we needed.

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Business development literally only works if you put a group of engineers and finance people who are well versed at trading, sales, future market projections, etc into those positions. If the people do not have any technical knowledge of the industry then there is no point for their jobs.

Commercial or business development is extremely important but these groups cannot function if they don't have any technical know how. I don't even understand what a non-technical person would even do in such a position. How would you even begin to tell engineers what to do when you barely understand what the company does in general?

CM Trump Voter said:

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When I make a statement, it sounds like I'm asking a question?

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God i hate this inflection more than anything.

BAP Enthusiast said:

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Business development literally only works if you put a group of engineers and finance people who are well versed at trading, sales, future market projections, etc into those positions. If the people do not have any technical knowledge of the industry then there is no point for their jobs.

Commercial or business development is extremely important but these groups cannot function if they don't have any technical know how. I don't even understand what a non-technical person would even do in such a position. How would you even begin to tell engineers what to do when you barely understand what the company does in general?

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The title of "Business Development" is likely the most misused title in todays corporate world. BD creates growth through solutions and strategies...sales is a small portion of the role.

I see widget salespeople with title "Business Development" all of the time.


Rarely do I see corporate development misused.

Surprisingly enough my company is actually actively investigating if there is a need for additional mid range employees to handle stuff like product competency, clerical type details etc for our sales crew.

Quote:

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These people would rather be Instagram or Tik Tok stars than work a normal job. That's why these idiots are posting their worthless job online. They care more about social media than they do their own job.

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That could be true.
Being a tiktok star is just like becoming a great stand up comedian though.
You have to put in the time, effort and understand what resonates with an audience.
You are correct, GenZ is not grasping this.

It's impossible to tell from this clip whether these young women add value to their organization or not. Sure, their voice patterns are annoying as hell -- and I would never admit to working while in the pool -- but those are generational issues.

Still, the underlying message of the tweet is a good one.

Corporate America has been binging on cheap money and kowtowing to social media/ESG trends for too long. When the merry-go-round stops -- probably sooner rather than later -- it's gonna be very difficult for a lot of people.

Lot of useless fat that's been playing online all day and contributing nothing about to get canned. The gravy train workers paradise is done

Maroon Dawn said:

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Lot of useless fat that's been playing online all day and contributing nothing about to get canned. The gravy train workers paradise is done

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I sure hope so.

Sea Speed said:

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CM Trump Voter said:

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When I make a statement, it sounds like I'm asking a question?

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God i hate this inflection more than anything.

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Not something I could tolerate in the office. I simply didn't hire women that spoke like this.

This is actually a pretty misplaced thread. Product Managers are a very important part of software development if used properly. You have bad PM's just as you have bad programmers. Their job is to make sure that the product being developed is the right one based on what customers and the market want. Without them you have Engineers just developing what they want in a vacuum without specs that are tied to customers.

Also this is just 2 women who work from home and are obviously having a little fun. They don't work from the pool every day. I've taken work calls on the beach on vacation before. My job doesn't require me to be in the office very often, in fact all it does is just waste time for me to get ready and drive 30 minutes so I can sit in a cube and then have to find a room to take calls (I'm on calls most of the day). It allows me to take care of short personal errands as well with good time management and I often end up working much later and much earlier (wake up, cup of coffee, I'm online). My wife also works from home and usually clocks 65+ hours a week. For me it just makes me focus more on what I need to do and it greatly reduces my stress, I'm much more productive. We both have jobs that are very virtual friendly though, I do recruiting and she does Partner Marketing. Most of the people we work with aren't even in the city we live.

You have an increasingly matrixed workforce with people all over working together. It allows for a much broader talent pool when you can hire team members all over the country. It also saves a lot of money to the company not having to pay for office space and everything needed for a person to work. Does it work for every job? Not at all. Does it create different management challenges? Absolutely. If you do it properly though the emphasis is ALL about work production and not "face time". There are plenty of useless people that show up and "punch a clock" as well.

It's all about the role and the individual and sometimes it works great while other times it's a disaster.

How are these companies profitable?

It's seems pretty insane to me but whatever

aggie93 said:

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This is actually a pretty misplaced thread. Product Managers are a very important part of software development if used properly. You have bad PM's just as you have bad programmers. Their job is to make sure that the product being developed is the right one based on what customers and the market want. Without them you have Engineers just developing what they want in a vacuum without specs that are tied to customers.

Also this is just 2 women who work from home and are obviously having a little fun. They don't work from the pool every day. I've taken work calls on the beach on vacation before. My job doesn't require me to be in the office very often, in fact all it does is just waste time for me to get ready and drive 30 minutes so I can sit in a cube and then have to find a room to take calls (I'm on calls most of the day). It allows me to take care of short personal errands as well with good time management and I often end up working much later and much earlier (wake up, cup of coffee, I'm online). My wife also works from home and usually clocks 65+ hours a week. For me it just makes me focus more on what I need to do and it greatly reduces my stress, I'm much more productive. We both have jobs that are very virtual friendly though, I do recruiting and she does Partner Marketing. Most of the people we work with aren't even in the city we live.

You have an increasingly matrixed workforce with people all over working together. It allows for a much broader talent pool when you can hire team members all over the country. It also saves a lot of money to the company not having to pay for office space and everything needed for a person to work. Does it work for every job? Not at all. Does it create different management challenges? Absolutely. If you do it properly though the emphasis is ALL about work production and not "face time". There are plenty of useless people that show up and "punch a clock" as well.

It's all about the role and the individual and sometimes it works great while other times it's a disaster.

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No its about employees having the upper hand in the current cycle, but the worm will turn. Then, workers like in the OP will be looking for work.

Signel said:

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I've literally worked on the beach before. What does it matter if the work gets done? Why are people offended when the path they chose means they can't?

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you can't be productive unless you're in a cubicle posting on texags several hours a day

Amazing how much the workplace has changed.

Signel said:

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I can work my job from anywhere. The downside is so can an Indian engineer. The good news is that the world is rapidly segregating by country so outsourcing is becoming riskier.

I've literally worked on the beach before. What does it matter if the work gets done? Why are people offended when the path they chose means they can't? Accepting the risk of a layoff to have the ability to have more flexibility shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. The world was ripped out of the old mentality due to covid. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle, and if you want to stay competitive, you better recognize it now. Hold employees accountable for the tasks assigned. Remote work is a benefit that can easily be removed.....

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When the worm turns...you will be surprised how quick things change and people get canned.

baron_von_awesome said:

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aggie93 said:

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This is actually a pretty misplaced thread. Product Managers are a very important part of software development if used properly. You have bad PM's just as you have bad programmers. Their job is to make sure that the product being developed is the right one based on what customers and the market want. Without them you have Engineers just developing what they want in a vacuum without specs that are tied to customers.

Also this is just 2 women who work from home and are obviously having a little fun. They don't work from the pool every day. I've taken work calls on the beach on vacation before. My job doesn't require me to be in the office very often, in fact all it does is just waste time for me to get ready and drive 30 minutes so I can sit in a cube and then have to find a room to take calls (I'm on calls most of the day). It allows me to take care of short personal errands as well with good time management and I often end up working much later and much earlier (wake up, cup of coffee, I'm online). My wife also works from home and usually clocks 65+ hours a week. For me it just makes me focus more on what I need to do and it greatly reduces my stress, I'm much more productive. We both have jobs that are very virtual friendly though, I do recruiting and she does Partner Marketing. Most of the people we work with aren't even in the city we live.

You have an increasingly matrixed workforce with people all over working together. It allows for a much broader talent pool when you can hire team members all over the country. It also saves a lot of money to the company not having to pay for office space and everything needed for a person to work. Does it work for every job? Not at all. Does it create different management challenges? Absolutely. If you do it properly though the emphasis is ALL about work production and not "face time". There are plenty of useless people that show up and "punch a clock" as well.

It's all about the role and the individual and sometimes it works great while other times it's a disaster.

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No its about employees having the upper hand in the current cycle, but the worm will turn. Then, workers like in the OP will be looking for work.

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Depends on how productive they are, that's the real point. If they are highly productive they will be just fine. Also it will depend on what type of experience and knowledge they have. Working from the pool every once in a while is not going to be the issue that gets them fired. My guess is these women work for a tech company and face time at the office is rarely what they will be evaluated on if they are good at their job.

I do think the point that people who are unproductive and high maintenance are in for an awakening though, no doubt. I also think it was stupid of them to make a video like this because it is bad optics, it seems like the second woman seems to feel uncomfortable about it.

Ag In Ok said:

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Amazing how much the workplace has changed.

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This movie was my life for 5 years.

We even had a guy who sent out a company wide email looking for his stapler.

D-Fens said:

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You guys don't get it. They add tons of value to the company's gender diversity metric.

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Being woke is a luxury good. It will be the first jobs to go

This is what happens when companies set "aspirational" goals for % of certain genders in certain roles.

I'm sure the middle management team that hired these two are more than happy to keep them in the pool shuffling emails and out of the actual work. And they hit an additional bonus target for it. Win - win.

There are many people out there getting paid for 8 hours while doing 2 hours worth of work.
A recession can correct that.

YouBet said:

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Sea Speed said:

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CM Trump Voter said:

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When I make a statement, it sounds like I'm asking a question?

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God i hate this inflection more than anything.

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Not something I could tolerate in the office. I simply didn't hire women that spoke like this.

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seriously. I couldn't imagine actually dating someone that spoke like this either. Woof.

Zarathustra said:

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Signel said:

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I can work my job from anywhere. The downside is so can an Indian engineer. The good news is that the world is rapidly segregating by country so outsourcing is becoming riskier.

I've literally worked on the beach before. What does it matter if the work gets done? Why are people offended when the path they chose means they can't? Accepting the risk of a layoff to have the ability to have more flexibility shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. The world was ripped out of the old mentality due to covid. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle, and if you want to stay competitive, you better recognize it now. Hold employees accountable for the tasks assigned. Remote work is a benefit that can easily be removed.....

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Posts like this are really starting to annoy me - and I'm all for hybrid work. "Doing work from anywhere" is a fallacy of the employee's point of view. They're solely referring to "I can do tasks assign to me". What the employee doesn't see is all the things they've missed because they're not connected to other people or in the office. If no one's asking them to do anything they think there's no work to be done.

You'll never hear "I started a business and I let everyone work from the beach. They're so productive!"

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i've worked from home for 10 years. Now that being said, i'm a network engineer and travel fairly regularly to do firewall and network installs and sales trips. my company is in San Antonio and I am in Temple. They didn't see any need for us to relocate because i'm 2 hours from DFW, Austin, Houston, and SA. It's cheaper for me being here and traveling than if i had moved to SA.

lot of flexibility and i am free to take care of family stuff during the day. i ran my son to an ortho appointment this morning in fact.

that being said.... i dress professionally every single day with a collared shirt and my hair done, my wife knows what times i can or can't run errands or be available and i am at my desk for every single meeting in case cameras need to come on. i do not take meetings out on the deck or in the car running around. i play fortnite, peruse texags, clean the house, etc. But I am available at all times and not flaunting it.

Honestly, those girls even making that video should be grounds for immediate firing in our company. We cannot function without an engineer in my role, but my productivity is directly tied to me being allowed to be that engineer.

I'm not going to say they can't be productive while doing that, but their own job description basically played out like the office space meme posted above. If i'm going to cut, it's going to be email pushers and project managers.