What price is the tipping point for consumers?

7,061 Views | 107 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by 10thYrSr
MasonB
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Somebody asked about diesel heaters for their tent and I told them by next winter it will be cheaper to burn dollars than diesel.

It was intended as a joke. I hope it doesn't turn prophetic.
Aggiemundo
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TexasAggie73 said:

Shell Oil just announced record quarterly profits and so did BP. Let that also sink in.


Not sure I understand your point. Their profits are based primarily on the commodity price of oil. That is significantly up due to less supply around the world. There has been little if any reduction in consumption > profit. I'm guessing their margin per gallon of refined gas remains at 4 pts or so.
SMM48
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156 dollar oil

BoerneGator
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Sid Farkas said:

I blame Putin, Trump and Bush
Not sure if serious, but how's that working out fer ya?
Dirty Bird
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Shoefly! said:

Buy a small dehumidifier and place it close to your A/C intake. You'll have to dump it every 5th day. It makes the air feel much cooler. I've been running at 77f for the last month, very comfortable.
The closest I could get to it is about 6 feet. Does that work?
SMM48
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So what?

They don't set the price of oil.

Don't use that argument please. It's dumb
sharpdressedman
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Increasing credit card debt and a decreasing savings rate are the current pathways to ruin for many lower and middle income people, especially those who freely choose not to be employed. When their money and credit run out, I anticipate they will demand government stimuli of some sort, perhaps renewed stimulus payments, and such will be provided to avoid a national economic crisis.

A guest on Bloomberg, my guess is a very liberal economist, stated his indifference about the large fluctuations in stock market prices, claiming the market is "too big to fail," and the Fed will not allow its monetary policy to injure corporate America. The host was taken aback and changed the subject.

Not even Carnack the Magnificent could predict where and when the national economic train will jump the tracks.
FrioAg 00
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Amazon is 50% of all internet sales, a it's stock price is 34% drop from its high point.

Bezos normally stays pretty quiet but even he is now tweeting about this administrations policies driving inflation.

So the market is already pricing in consumers being past the tipping point.
Dirty Bird
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SMM48 said:

156 dollar oil


I'm kinda fine with that outlook. I went heavy in traditional energy related stocks at the beginning of the Covid. They've performed very well with plenty of upside. Fingers crossed. Plus also funds bags. I kid, I kid.
Shoefly!
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Mine is around 12 ft away. The dehumidifier was $35.00.
mazzag
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I booked our Florida trip in January. Last year the gulf coast booked up fast so I wanted to make sure we got the same house. Not the week I wanted but was glad. Now with gas prices I'm dreading it. Too late to cancel.
LostInLA07
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Hotel prices definitely seem to have doubled. We fortunately booked our trips for this summer and through Columbus Day 2022 about a year ago. Same trips would cost double now from hotel and airfare increases.
SMM48
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Same.

It's in that range. 155-160-165.

Prolonged of course. Not just a touch and retreat

No telling if it goes there. But the next "tipping" point is in the 155-165 range The wealthier Higher income one is the tipping point increases
techno-ag
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I'm still ticked the dollar store raised prices on everything to $1.25.
Trump will fix it.
YouBet
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TXTransplant said:

YouBet said:

I've cried all over the board about it, but one tipping point for us this last week was to completely change our scope on vacations we planned to take.

We were originally going to take an entire week off and do a big vacation which we haven't done since pre-COVID for a variety of reasons.

Um, yeah, after looking at lodging rates this past week we have nixed that idea. So, we either going to have to downgrade quality or more likely break up our vacation time across long weekends to spread the pain. First world problems but the type of place we used to stay at are all now $1,200+ per night and some are over $2,000+ per night. I simply can't justify that.

These are places that were $500-600 last time we went just 3+ years ago. It's f'ing shocking.


Where are you looking to go? A coworker wanted to go with her husband to Hawaii (he was going for work). She couldn't find anything under $700/night. I've seen some crazy hotel prices, too. And round trip tickets to Boston for a random weekend in August were $1000 on United.

I'm glad we opted for The Azores. We have a junior suite with a plunge pool, breakfast included, for $350/night.
Ha, actually Kauai was our first choice. Ironically, of the higher end places I've looked at it had the cheapest hotel rates at $900 per night. Granted it was 10 years ago when we stayed at this place last but it was somewhere around $300-400 back then for same room.

When I totaled up hotel and airfare we were looking at $10K before we ever set foot on the island. No thanks. Have been there twice so I don't need to go there again that bad. Plus, there are no cars to rent so would have to use Turo which I guess isn't that big of a deal, but I've never used that service.
Dirty Bird
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SMM48 said:

Same.

It's in that range. 155-160-165.

Prolonged of course. Not just a touch and retreat

No telling if it goes there. But the next "tipping" point is in the 155-165 range The wealthier Higher income one is the tipping point increases
Do you have some expertise in energy? When do you think oil will get to $150?
Bird Poo
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TexasAggie73 said:

Shell Oil just announced record quarterly profits and so did BP. Let that also sink in.


It sank in. Do you think the govt should own oil companies or something? I really don't understand your solution when their profit margin is the same yet the commodity price of oil has risen sharply. Is this the oil company's fault in your mind?
Rapier108
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Well, let's see.

Gas in B/CS went from around $4.15 on Monday, to $4.70 today.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
The Chicken Ranch
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When a stolen election is allowed to stand???

Proc92
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Bird Poo said:

TexasAggie73 said:

Shell Oil just announced record quarterly profits and so did BP. Let that also sink in.


It sank in. Do you think the govt should own oil companies or something? I really don't understand your solution when their profit margin is the same yet the commodity price of oil has risen sharply. Is this the oil company's fault in your mind?
What were their profits when oil went to 8 many years ago or negative in 2020?
TexAgs91
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This is an experiment in how fast you can boil a frog without it jumping out of the pot
No, I don't care what CNN or MSNBC said this time
Ad Lunam
TXTransplant
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YouBet said:

TXTransplant said:

YouBet said:

I've cried all over the board about it, but one tipping point for us this last week was to completely change our scope on vacations we planned to take.

We were originally going to take an entire week off and do a big vacation which we haven't done since pre-COVID for a variety of reasons.

Um, yeah, after looking at lodging rates this past week we have nixed that idea. So, we either going to have to downgrade quality or more likely break up our vacation time across long weekends to spread the pain. First world problems but the type of place we used to stay at are all now $1,200+ per night and some are over $2,000+ per night. I simply can't justify that.

These are places that were $500-600 last time we went just 3+ years ago. It's f'ing shocking.


Where are you looking to go? A coworker wanted to go with her husband to Hawaii (he was going for work). She couldn't find anything under $700/night. I've seen some crazy hotel prices, too. And round trip tickets to Boston for a random weekend in August were $1000 on United.

I'm glad we opted for The Azores. We have a junior suite with a plunge pool, breakfast included, for $350/night.
Ha, actually Kauai was our first choice. Ironically, of the higher end places I've looked at it had the cheapest hotel rates at $900 per night. Granted it was 10 years ago when we stayed at this place last but it was somewhere around $300-400 back then for same room.

When I totaled up hotel and airfare we were looking at $10K before we ever set foot on the island. No thanks. Have been there twice so I don't need to go there again that bad. Plus, there are no cars to rent so would have to use Turo which I guess isn't that big of a deal, but I've never used that service.


Yeah, that would have made me back off, too. We stayed at the Grand Hyatt in Kauai and the Grand Wailea in Maui. Last I looked, just for "fun", the Grand Wailea was $1000+. I think I paid less than 1/2 that in 2017. I can't imagine who is paying those prices!
BrazosDog02
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No Spin Ag said:

Gas keeps going up, yet everywhere I go restaurants are packed, as are vacation destinations, etc. People that I know who have flown in the past week said that their flights have all been full as well. For reference, one flew in state and the other from Texas to Florida.

Did the lockdowns have any effect on how people see the costs of things and so now they're still seeing it as worth doing them, even if it costs more? And will the price of fuel have to get past $5 a gallon (in Texas prices) for people to stop going out to eat, go to staycations like in 2008, etc., or will it need to get closer to $10 a gallon for that to happen?



In my line of work, I've seen people owning trucks that cost 75% of what they paid for their house. There is no tipping point. People are stupid with money. They are STUPID with money. They simply reallocate what they spend money on and take out more debt. What people ought to be doing and what people are actually doing is alarming to say the least. I honestly don't know where parents failed exactly, but finance is easily in the top 3.

You guys forget that there are millions of people that have no idea about their environment, politics, the state of the economy, or future.
SMM48
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No idea of if or when it gets there.

Saudi is in control with how much they release or don't release.

publicly traded energy has already said production will remain flat to slightly higher. After a decade of losses they will be returning capital to shareholders paying down debt.

Berkshire Buffett feels that it will remain elevated otherwise he wouldn't have taken a 14% stake on OXY and added to CVX.

it depends really on Russian Ukraine how much longer that goes, the European Union and how they strict they are on buying russia oil.

Some have said 150 is the next move. A few have said 200. We shall see.

The amount of oil being transported on ships is highest than it's been in awhile right now.

As long as it stays above 75. The energy companies will be rolling. Domestic producers have an average cost of 25 a barrel right now.
SMM48
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They were horrible.
techno-ag
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SMM48 said:

As long as it stays above 75. The energy companies will be rolling. Domestic producers have an average cost of 25 a barrel right now.
They're not producing much, though. Banks aren't lending, supplies are tight and labor is hard to find.

But an oil company could certainly make bank at these prices if they overcome the obstacles to production.
Trump will fix it.
SMM48
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Their output has remained flat. Existing wells flowing.

Wells have a drop off in production each passing day week month year.

Only opening new wells to keep production flat to what it was 12 months ago for example.

In other words. They are making 100 dozen tortillas a day. But someone on the line caught a cramp and are now at 95 dozen. They hire a temp to make that other 5 dozen.
policywonk98
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When working moms start having to pay extra for Amazon delivery and there is no next day guarantee.

There will be riots in the suburbs.
SMM48
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Here ya go.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m

But yes you are correct about difficulty because of shortages etc

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/03/08/oil-producers-in-a-dire-situation-and-unable-to-ramp-output-says-oxy-ceo.html
techno-ag
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SMM48 said:

Their output has remained flat. Existing wells flowing.

Wells have a drop off in production each passing day week month year.

Only opening new wells to keep production flat to what it was 12 months ago for example.

In other words. They are making 100 dozen tortillas a day. But someone on the line caught a cramp and are now at 95 dozen. They hire a temp to make that other 5 dozen.
Yup. At some point someone is going to figure out if they can up production by 15 tortillas they'll make money.
Trump will fix it.
SMM48
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You are correct about difficulty with shortages materials and such. Yes

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/03/08/oil-producers-in-a-dire-situation-and-unable-to-ramp-output-says-oxy-ceo.html
TX_COWDOC
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SMM48
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And then there is refining…..

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/chevron-ceo-warns-not-to-count-on-new-us-oil-refinery-even-with-surging-gas-prices-1.1774203
Ribeye-Rare
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Quote:

When their money and credit run out, I anticipate they will demand government stimuli of some sort, perhaps renewed stimulus payments, and such will be provided to avoid a national economic crisis.
That's a very astute observation, and if that were to happen, wouldn't surprise me much, which is a sad commentary on our current state of governance.

Like a kid who doesn't get caught until 7/8ths of the cookie jar has already been liberated, our government, particularly over the past 15 years, has spent mightily on things that were not paid for through the creation of new wealth, but rather, by governmental slight of hand.

In the infamous 'OldAg2020' thread I stated that I had been baffled by the relative absence of inflation over this same period of time. That absence seemed to contradict everything that the 1970's era Chicago school monetarists in A&M's Economics Department (Phil and Wendy Gramm) drilled into my head.

Our leaders (in both parties, although one is a much more hardened offender) also must have been surprised by the lack of inflation over this period and so continued in their evil ways with impunity, taking cookie after cookie. Now, however, the bell is finally tolling. Mom has discovered what has happened and isn't happy.

Looking back over that period I can only surmise that we lacked serious inflation for (3) principle reasons:

1. The willingness of foreigners, whose own governments and central bankers were even more irresponsible than ours, to purchase dollars;

2. The great increase in the number of our products that were being made overseas, where labor costs are substantially less than they are in the U.S. {Of course, where did the unemployed Americans go for a living? -- Some transitioned to 'service' and some relied increasingly on governmental assistance}; and,

3. Our productivity gains over this same period were sizeable indeed (think internet expansion among other things), and thus masked the effect of having a dollar that was devaluing year after year.

On the third point, I'll offer an over simplified example. Let's say in 2005 it cost me $.75 to manufacture, transport and sell a loaf of bread, including all my administrative expenses. That loaf then sells to the consumer for $1.00.

Now, due to efficiencies across the spectrum brought on by technological advances, particularly on the administrative end of things, but also due to better computer controls in the manufacturing process, I'm able to make that same loaf of bread for $.65.

In theory, I can also sell that loaf for $.10 less than before, or, if I'd like to reward myself for being efficient, maybe $.08 less than before, so it hits the consumer's hands at $.92 per loaf.

Ah, but that would be deflationary you say, and we mustn't have that.

But, 'no problem' says the federal government. We'll devalue the currency a bit to fund 'other causes' and that same loaf will still sell for $1.00. We'll report stable prices and everyone will be happy, except for the consumer who may (but most likely not) figure out that he could have had another $.08 to spend on something else in addition to his loaf of bread.

TLDR -- Productivity increases masked a great deal of inflation in the last 15 years - productivity increases that were stalled or reversed recently due to COVID and other assorted BS.

Back in the '70's we also spent a great deal of time studying a quaint concept called the 'Time Value of Money'. I guess that is relevant again.
richardag
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TXTransplant said:

If you booked a flight a few months ago (say mid-March or earlier) for this summer, you probably paid a somewhat normal/reasonable price. The price increases on flights have been more recent. I'm dreading the Thanksgiving/Christmas prices.
This
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
 
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