That $250K doesn't go very far when your mortgage + insurance + taxes is $5,750/month and your fancy new $60,000 Wrangler Rubicon is $919/month. Now that the kids are out of college and working, I don't have anything else to spend my money on - International travel is still Covid'd out for the places I want to go.

The question I have is, how are people living in my neighborhood and driving as fancy a car as me when I know they don't earn nearly as much as I do.

Not to mention all the AMG G-Wagens and even Lamborghini SUVs I see running around. Where is the money for that coming from?

ChemEng94 said:

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My point is that in places like LA and NYC where taxes and rents/mortgages are so much higher, $250K isn't some exorbitant income.

My housing cost as a percentage of my salary is around 10%. I suspect for most Texans that number is in the 20 - 30% range. In LA and NY, that number probably jumps up to 40 - 50%. Then you get to pay all those additional income taxes.

I went online and found a cost of living index. If you wanted to live like someone making $250K in Houston, you would need to make:

$633K in NYC
$521K in San Fran
$385K in LA

So, $250K in Texas is a pretty handsome sum. In NYC, not so much. I realize that your point is that $250K is good money regardless, but without taking location into context it can be a bit misleading.

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put another way, $250k in NYC is like $100k in Houston, which is twice the median household income in Houston.

if you make more than twice the median income in your city and are living paycheck to paycheck, that's a pretty big indictment on your ability to manage your finances.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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We don't have an earning problem, we have a spending problem...... Learn to live within your means folks, life is much easier and less stressful that way. It's really not all that hard to do.

Hint: stop worrying about what others think of you.

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$250k is great money in most of Texas.
Not great money in other places in the nation.

For many, this system is a great place to start.



I have know guys making under six figures their entire careers retire comfortably with $1m+ in the bank and I have known guys making 350k+ a year always one payment away from the repo man. One thing about a broke salesman, they are motivated.

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Or this one


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

The authors compare the behaviour of those they call "UAWs" (Under Accumulators of Wealth) and those who are "PAWs" (Prodigious Accumulators of Wealth). Their findings, that millionaires are disproportionately clustered in middle-class and blue-collar neighborhoods and not in more affluent or white-collar communities, came as a surprise to the authors who anticipated the contrary. Stanley and Danko's book explains why, noting that high-income white-collar professionals are more likely to devote their income to luxury goods or status items, thus neglecting savings and investments.

beerad12man said:

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jopatura said:

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If it's two people making $250,000 combined, I can easily see mortgage + daycare in a HCOL taking the majority of that. Add in cost of healthcare, 401k, and then your everyday costs, I see it. Putting kids in activities isn't cheap either. I spend $400/mo just on gymnastics and swim lessons for two kids.

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Meh. This is absolving too much blame. We have a spending problem and most Americans have no clue what what sacrifice and true hardship mean. The vast majority of these people can save money if they tried.

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This. I am repeatedly shocked by those around me, regardless of how much income, living beyond their means and then whining about their debt and being cash poor. I thank my parents and upbringing for keeping a budget and saving for rainy days. People need to get a grip and take responsibility in reducing debt and not trying to keep up with the Joneses.

1/3 of Americans in general are not up to Pollo standards.

All this proves is that Americans are stupid with their money.

This info is about a decade old but when my wife and I lived in NYC both working making over $300k total. Rent was ~$5k per month (we could have cheaper but splurged after living cheap for years previous), we had a nanny who we paid out of pocket, something like $30-40k per year + benefits. So $100k post tax dollars gone just for housing and childcare. Yes we still had lots of disposable income, but obviously Manhattan is expensive and were working 50-60 hours a week and not seeing our kids as much as we like so when you spend that 'sorry I wasn't around' cash on your kids for vacations and toys and other crap to make yourself feel better as a parent. And, we had little debt but many of our friends did not, some amassing >$250k in undergrad and professional school loans.

cecil77 said:

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Ramsey's advice is fine as far as it goes, but it's nothing more than your grandmother told you. He also undervalues the use of debt.

My biggest issue with him is I absolutely despise the way he markets through churches. Kinda like, "let us market to your members and we'll urge them to kick some back to you."

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I don't have any issues with a lot of what he says, but this is where I stray. I don't feel bad about carrying debt when it is a 4 year, 0% interest car note. I have no issue even paying "some" interest when the cash is making more where it is, or the cost of moving it would just go to the taxman.

That said, it took me some time to get here and I carried bad debt too long. Should have been bad debt free before hitting 40, not 50.

Chronic overspending. This is a huge problem among doctors. It's like the forced lean times in residency and schooling make some people think they can do whatever they want afterward and lots of dumb decisions get made.

I was raised to not carry debt at all and it's been a difficult thing for me to learn to leverage debt when it makes sense. I will not take on debt to make an optional improvement on my home or buy a car etc. if I can't write a check for it right now without it hurting, I don't need it.

We need home economics back in schools. Kids need to learn how to make a budget, cook and do basic maintenance on property. The knowledge gap is getting scary.

Cromagnum said:

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MuchosPollos said:

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We don't have an earning problem, we have a spending problem....

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Our entire country in a nutshell.

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And an eating problem, we're not small people. And why so many "poors" some of the largest folks? Can't pack a sandwich and fruit for work, gotta go for fast food all the time?

zgolfz85 said:

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I'm really hoping part of the reason here is because they're fully funding their 401s and IRAs and life insurance etc

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I don't think the article includes that as being paycheck to paycheck. Seems like it's defined as basically 100% or pay going to living expenses with nothing leftover to save or invest

I would kill for 250k a year! Still young so have plenty of time but with two kids eating up $2k a month in daycare costs, my wife and I are learning to be conservative with our money. Plus that $2k will continue to go towards paying off debt since we are already used to it which will pay off in the long run.

Quote:

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And I think marketing through churches is a brilliant idea. His message is biblically-based and he's a devout Christian so it just makes sense. He's also said that if the church congregation is out of debt they can be more giving and will have a better spiritual life as well. Can't argue with that.

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Oh it's brilliant all right. Sell churches on the idea that they can increase contributions by hosting (and many times paying for) his program, and then marketing the hell out of it to their congregation. Two different churches (different towns, several years apart) did this and, sorry, I find it vile.

You sound like you have some personal issues. Hope you find help.

Zarathustra said:

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You sound like you have some personal issues. Hope you find help.

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Huh? That's a stretch. Just have made observations over quite a few years and posting those observations.

Quite a social media stretch to equate that to "personal issues"...

OaklandAg06 said:

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1/3 of Americans in general are not up to Pollo standards.

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I was one of those paycheck to paycheck people back in the day and was dead ass broke starting my business. There were many months that I worried about paying my bills. Over the last 10 years while others were partying, I was grinding through late nights and early mornings. While my friends were living for the moment, I was planning for the future. Now I own everything I could ever want, have a house/land/trucks that are fully paid for, and have a more or less stress free life. Anyone can do the same. It's not that hard.....

I'm no more talented or special than the rest of us. I believe the things that separates those that achieve and 61% of Americans that live paycheck to paycheck are: Discipline, honesty, and self-esteem.

Being honest with yourself about who and what you are is the most important thing IMO.

cecil77 said:

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Zarathustra said:

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You sound like you have some personal issues. Hope you find help.

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Huh? That's a stretch. Just have made observations over quite a few years and posting those observations.

Quite a social media stretch to equate that to "personal issues"...

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Personal issues is probably over the line, but I disagree with you that this is some sort of unholy alliance between the debt-free folks and churches. As another poster above noted, money issues are the leading cause of divorce and other ills that affect Christians and non-Christians alike. If pastors want to offer that as a service to their folks, I don't see any issue with it. It's not like they're bringing in time share condo people. And people should be tithing, so Ramsey's message is not at odds with churches hoping to simultaneously accomplish two goods: (1) keep folks out of money trouble, and thus life trouble and (2) increase people who are financially committed to the success of their church.

Obviously we won't change your mind on this but it seems like you're not seeing the obvious symbiosis here.

jopatura said:

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If it's two people making $250,000 combined, I can easily see mortgage + daycare in a HCOL taking the majority of that. Add in cost of healthcare, 401k, and then your everyday costs, I see it. Putting kids in activities isn't cheap either. I spend $400/mo just on gymnastics and swim lessons for two kids.

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. I don't. People mostly suck at managing their money.

One other consideration is that when most people spend like drunken sailors, it impacts those who try to be responsible. One reason car and truck prices have shot up so much is that most people only care about the monthly nut. So, they started offering 72 month (and longer) notes to lower the monthly payment. With those "lower" monthly payments, people didn't care that a truck was now $70,000. But the frugal now have to deal with these prices.

Phatbob said:

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Stop making stupid choices.

^ This is exactly the same argument for people who can't make ends meet but are poor. The only difference is you don't get called an a-hole for saying about people making good money, even though the problem is EXACTLY the same.

There are people who make good decisions that don't make good money and they end up doing just fine, because they do well with what they have. It has NOTHING TO DO with being poor or rich, it's a mindset and being responsible.

Make better decisions and you stop being poor. These people are 1 month away from being poor.

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Deserves another star.

I know way too many people who would rather be house poor than living more modestly, just so the can say that have a nice house.

All the while they're pinching pennies for everything else in the their lives.

Our church paid for the Dave Ramsey workshop and my family followed it hard and after one year, we were debt free minus a car payment and house payment. They used the term "Snowball" and essentially you pay off small debt first and snowball that amount into the bigger debt. It can be done!!!! Just gotta hunker down and take away credit cards. Cash only.

But to the point of the OP, $250,000/year ain't squat when inflation like this is squeezing your sack with two hands. FJB and dems

I have friends that I know have boats, pools, ATVs, etc. and make a ton less than I do. I grew up poor and yeah I spend money on things I don't "need" from time to time but used to not spending money on stuff I don't need. Moved to a neighborhood with a ton of pools so don't need one of those, purchased a vehicle on 0% (I do a lot of driving so I need a reliable vehicle, would much rather not have a car payment), and go out to eat like twice a month.

Another thing to look at is your spouse, I didn't realize how much my ex spent on worthless crap or clothes that she would never wear. Got divorced and stopped bleeding money. I bought a dress shirt and some polos for the first time in 3 years, I wait for jeans to go on sale at Old Navy since they fit and they often get stains on them from work, I trim my own hair so I don't have to pay $20 every few weeks. It's a bunch of little things that add up when you combine a family.

I do think a lot of parents don't think about the cost of child care, parents should look at what their net cost is. Let's say $1000 per kid a month to make it easy, average family has 2 kids so $24k a year plus another $1000 for fees and such so $25k. The average US income for a family is around $87k and that is before taxes. Figure 15% for taxes and that is $13k on top of the $25k for childcare. So you have almost half of your money going to taxes and child care, in a situation like this it would likely not be worth the lower earning parent to work.

cecil77 said:

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MuchosPollos said:

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330,000,000 US Citizens (making over $250K) x 0.36 = 118,800,000 living paycheck to paycheck (likely most along the east and west coasts)

330,000,000 US Citizens x 0.613 (all consumers) = 202,290,000 living paycheck to paycheck


There are a bunch of people lurking on this thread that fall into these categories. Inflation is going to kick a lot of ass over the next year or so.

Thank your loving Federal Reserve for all the printed cash......

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OP shows .05 making over $250K, so that's 16,500.

And 330M is the entire population, not wage earners, so the number is much lower than that.

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Better recheck your math

Jason C. said:

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cecil77 said:

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Zarathustra said:

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You sound like you have some personal issues. Hope you find help.

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Huh? That's a stretch. Just have made observations over quite a few years and posting those observations.

Quite a social media stretch to equate that to "personal issues"...

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Personal issues is probably over the line, but I disagree with you that this is some sort of unholy alliance between the debt-free folks and churches. As another poster above noted, money issues are the leading cause of divorce and other ills that affect Christians and non-Christians alike. If pastors want to offer that as a service to their folks, I don't see any issue with it. It's not like they're bringing in time share condo people. And people should be tithing, so Ramsey's message is not at odds with churches hoping to simultaneously accomplish two goods: (1) keep folks out of money trouble, and thus life trouble and (2) increase people who are financially committed to the success of their church.

Obviously we won't change your mind on this but it seems like you're not seeing the obvious symbiosis here.

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It's his business. It's what he sells. It has made him rich. If he gave it away to churches that would be one thing. The two churches I was in spent a ton of money on the course and pressured members to take the course. I was on a finance committee that discussed it. Increasing contributions was definitely a factor and something they sell to churches decision makers.

Sorry. That's over the line.

Rattler12 said:

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cecil77 said:

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MuchosPollos said:

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330,000,000 US Citizens (making over $250K) x 0.36 = 118,800,000 living paycheck to paycheck (likely most along the east and west coasts)

330,000,000 US Citizens x 0.613 (all consumers) = 202,290,000 living paycheck to paycheck


There are a bunch of people lurking on this thread that fall into these categories. Inflation is going to kick a lot of ass over the next year or so.

Thank your loving Federal Reserve for all the printed cash......

---

OP shows .05 making over $250K, so that's 16,500.

And 330M is the entire population, not wage earners, so the number is much lower than that.

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Better recheck your math

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yup, left off three zeros, 16.5 million. thanks for pointing it out.

cecil77 said:

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Rattler12 said:

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cecil77 said:

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MuchosPollos said:

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330,000,000 US Citizens (making over $250K) x 0.36 = 118,800,000 living paycheck to paycheck (likely most along the east and west coasts)

330,000,000 US Citizens x 0.613 (all consumers) = 202,290,000 living paycheck to paycheck


There are a bunch of people lurking on this thread that fall into these categories. Inflation is going to kick a lot of ass over the next year or so.

Thank your loving Federal Reserve for all the printed cash......

---

OP shows .05 making over $250K, so that's 16,500.

And 330M is the entire population, not wage earners, so the number is much lower than that.

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Better recheck your math

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yup, left off three zeros, 16.5 million. thanks for pointing it out.

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I'm here to help.......

16Ag18 said:

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I would kill for 250k a year! Still young so have plenty of time but with two kids eating up $2k a month in daycare costs, my wife and I are learning to be conservative with our money. Plus that $2k will continue to go towards paying off debt since we are already used to it which will pay off in the long run.

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As somebody who is on the other side of the hill from where you're at.

Take that $2k in daycare and now imagine it's $5K per month for 2x Private Girls High School.
Your rent is $4k/month on top of that plus the $2k/month you lose renting your house out while you're overseas.
Add in a $15k trip "home" to the USA every 3 years and you'll find that $250k+ goes fast.

Oh, forgot the best part. $100k in income taxes.

And you do all that only to be told that you don't pay your fair share.

Seriously, if you're paying over $100k/yr in income tax, the government ought to be providing methhead strippers on demand.

jopatura said:

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If it's two people making $250,000 combined, I can easily see mortgage + daycare in a HCOL taking the majority of that. Add in cost of healthcare, 401k, and then your everyday costs, I see it. Putting kids in activities isn't cheap either. I spend $400/mo just on gymnastics and swim lessons for two kids.

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Remember, parents can say no to their kids.

I encourage this segment of the population and behavior instead of disparaging them, as they are uber consumers who have been saving the American economy for decades... without their conspicuous consumption as well over consumption, our economy would have tanked multiple times in previous decades and may even suffer longer doldrums.

I wonder how many of those in the article that are considered paycheck to paycheck are comfortable with that because they are really secure in their jobs or have some family money they know is there as a fallback if absolutely needed?

techno-ag said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Picard said:

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I regularly volunteer at the local food pantries and also help with an Angel Tree project each December. Both give me the opportunity to help load goods into the vehicles of people in need.

Sure I see some old and busted vehicles. But more often than you think I see well-dressed people driving current model BMWs, Escalades, etc. Last Christmas I even saw a brand new hybrid Lexus SUV with paper plates still on it. These people all recently lost their jobs and apparently had no savings and couldn't afford to unload the vehicle they were upside down on and couldn't afford in the first place.

So there they are.

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Last food distro for needy families I did with my kids, we were loading free turkey, bag of non-perishables, and a giftcard for $100 (to buy perishables) for Thanksgiving dinners.

Waited while the momma used her new iPhone to call the pappa and then carried that stuff out to $60-70K cars.

My kdis got a real good look at poverty in America.

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That's the thing about food banks. They allow people to make poor decisions. If they can get free food they will put that money toward other things.

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Well, people used to be shamed for terrible choices. I was a little tot in an HEB 30+ years ago when I saw food stamp money at the register for the first time. I asked my mother what that was and the other lady was offended and said something to my mother about teaching me such and such.

The lady was clearly embarrassed by even a child noticing her hardship and she probably had enough pride to get off the govt tit. Now days, it is concealed and embraced.

HollywoodBQ said:

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That $250K doesn't go very far when your mortgage + insurance + taxes is $5,750/month and your fancy new $60,000 Wrangler Rubicon is $919/month. Now that the kids are out of college and working, I don't have anything else to spend my money on - International travel is still Covid'd out for the places I want to go.

The question I have is, how are people living in my neighborhood and driving as fancy a car as me when I know they don't earn nearly as much as I do.

Not to mention all the AMG G-Wagens and even Lamborghini SUVs I see running around. Where is the money for that coming from?

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People driving a G 63 or Urus aren't making $250K a year.