This may open only to subscribers, but I will try posting it here.

This is a combined effort of the San Antonio Express News and the Houston Chronicle.

It contains maps and photos to illustrate the timeline.

I'm sorry if it won't open to non-subscribers.


There were three Uvalde PD officers at the classroom door two minutes after the killer locked it.

They were soon joined by four more officers.

Two UPD officers were grazed and all the officers ceased efforts to enter the room.

I have never been in a situation even close to this and I have no idea how I would react. I would like to think that I would enter the classroom immediately regardless of the risk, but I have no clue. I would like to think that I could be a badass. But I have no idea and I hope I never find out. Jocko Willink has talked about a SEAL that lost it during their first mission in the Gulf War and never went out again.

So I can forgive someone for not being able to muster the courage. I can forgive an individual. But this wasn't one person that failed. It was dozens of individuals, entire agencies, decision makers that weren't even going to be the trigger pullers. And then, when actual badasses did show up and did want to go in, the cowards told them no.

According to that graphic, the room has windows. If that is correct, then there is no reason to not engage from the outside. Rattle the door to draw his attention from the windows and shoot him in the back.

Except they were treating it as a barricaded subject so wouldn't they be trying to talk him out first to avoid further loss of life?

Do you rake and break windows without knowing where the children are?

And I thought I read he was in a closet?

Would be nice getting LE input but I'm sure no one wants to touch this with a 10 foot pole.

Just playing devils advocate.

Just FYI, I was able to see it not being a subscriber

Good, I was hoping someone would let me know if people can see it. Thank you!

Funny how they didn't hear a "barricaded suspect" fire over 100 rounds

COWARDS!

Seriously, what happened from 11:35 am onward? They arrived two minutes after he got into the classroom. Surely they could have engaged him through the window to stop some of the killing.

One thing that I keep wondering about - Were there not windows to this classroom? Could that angle have been pursued??

Horn_in_Aggieland said:

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Except they were treating it as a barricaded subject so wouldn't they be trying to talk him out first to avoid further loss of life?

Do you rake and break windows without knowing where the children are?

And I thought I read he was in a closet?

Would be nice getting LE input but I'm sure no one wants to touch this with a 10 foot pole.

Just playing devils advocate.

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They had multiple calls from inside the room that ppl were shot and alive. You don't stand around for 1.5 hrs with your dick in your hand waiting on a key. There's 2 classrooms with a shared bath, rattle the door to one class to draw his attention and then either shoot him thru the windows or try to enter thru the adjoining room's windows.

Maybe they didn't know about the shared bath. There's still windows. Someone should have been spotting out the classrooms. You have dozens of guys standing around with ar15s cuffing parents.

Could not see it.

TexasAggie_02 said:

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Horn_in_Aggieland said:

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Except they were treating it as a barricaded subject so wouldn't they be trying to talk him out first to avoid further loss of life?

Do you rake and break windows without knowing where the children are?

And I thought I read he was in a closet?

Would be nice getting LE input but I'm sure no one wants to touch this with a 10 foot pole.

Just playing devils advocate.

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They had multiple calls from inside the room that ppl were shot and alive. You don't stand around for 1.5 hrs with your dick in your hand waiting on a key. There's 2 classrooms with a shared bath, rattle the door to one class to draw his attention and then either shoot him thru the windows or try to enter thru the adjoining room's windows.

Maybe they didn't know about the shared bath. There's still windows. Someone should have been spotting out the classrooms. You have dozens of guys standing around with ar15s cuffing parents.

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That's what I was thinking. Pinpoint which classroom he is in, distract him with noises of an impending breach (even if it just shouting about it) there and break the windows on the other and meet him in the bathroom.

One other thing I don't understand. If they considered it a barricade/hostage situation why not use the cell phones inside to establish communications? Put the phones on speaker and start trying to communicate with him. Another form of distraction.

Window COULD BE be ballistic proof.

SMM48 said:

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Window COULD BE be ballistic proof.

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Somehow I doubt that. Fire codes.

We have ballistic windows in class rooms here.
So there is that.

SMM48 said:

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We have ballistic windows in class rooms here.
So there is that.

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I stand corrected. Are there emergency releases in case of a fire?

Yes. Sorry. And I meant to say. New construction of schools. No idea if schools not new have been retrofitted.

I was in a mass shooting.

It just happens so quick. Then you don't know how many people are shooting, and you don't know why.

Your adrenaline is so high. Your instincts take over.

I'm glad I had good instincts. I remember running out of the building on the opposite side of where the shooter came in, and co-workers were just standing around in the parking lot.

I immediately thought he could shoot out the window and ran through the building next door and then into a building even further away.

Then the police wouldn't let us leave and I was stuck for hours .

It's really easy to judge after the fact. Being in the situation is far different.

This was in 1989. I was in Sunnyvale, California. My parents were in Dallas. I did manage to call them and warn them that it would be on the news, and I was ok.

1.5 hours of sheer terror for those children, hard to forgive

I forgot to add that the cops had the shooter in their target but for some unknown reason they did not shoot him.

There were people still in the building hiding, so supposedly that's why they didn't shoot him. He surrendered for a submarine sandwich after five hours.

He is on death row in California. Of course, they will never kill him. I was hoping Covid would do him in, but it didn't.

SMM48 said:

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Yes. Sorry. And I meant to say. New construction of schools. No idea if schools not new have been retrofitted.

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There are reports of police busting out windows to pull kids out of other class rooms. So, doubt the other rooms had ballistic glass

A lot of unknown variables yet to be ironed out.

What was the layout of the classroom and hallways?
Where were the officers and the shooter located in relation to that layout?
Was there any way the police can observe what was going on inside the classroom?
Was there any way the shooter could observe the police?
How was he barricaded?
What kind of cover and concealment was available to the police and the shooter?
Was he actively shooting the kids when the officers arrived or was the deed already done? If he was locked in a classroom full of unarmed kids and teachers, it must have been like fish in a barrel and would not have taken long to take them out.

chickencoupe16 said:

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I have never been in a situation even close to this and I have no idea how I would react. I would like to think that I would enter the classroom immediately regardless of the risk, but I have no clue. I would like to think that I could be a badass. But I have no idea and I hope I never find out. Jocko Willink has talked about a SEAL that lost it during their first mission in the Gulf War and never went out again.

So I can forgive someone for not being able to muster the courage. I can forgive an individual. But this wasn't one person that failed. It was dozens of individuals, entire agencies, decision makers that weren't even going to be the trigger pullers. And then, when actual badasses did show up and did want to go in, the cowards told them no.

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Is there a better illustration of how government really works?

TexasAggie_02 said:

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Horn_in_Aggieland said:

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Except they were treating it as a barricaded subject so wouldn't they be trying to talk him out first to avoid further loss of life?

Do you rake and break windows without knowing where the children are?

And I thought I read he was in a closet?

Would be nice getting LE input but I'm sure no one wants to touch this with a 10 foot pole.

Just playing devils advocate.

---

They had multiple calls from inside the room that ppl were shot and alive. You don't stand around for 1.5 hrs with your dick in your hand waiting on a key. There's 2 classrooms with a shared bath, rattle the door to one class to draw his attention and then either shoot him thru the windows or try to enter thru the adjoining room's windows.

Maybe they didn't know about the shared bath. There's still windows. Someone should have been spotting out the classrooms. You have dozens of guys standing around with ar15s cuffing parents.

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This is just wrong.

Mist Ofc those kids were killed in the first 4 minutes.
There were two perimeters outside of building and around the two rooms.
The cops that arrived to site and began mustering around the two classroom kicked off the best moment trip evacuate the rest of the kids and sweep the areas.
BORTECH with armor and additional folks were arriving.

I look at that time line and so much was happening in the first 10 mins must had went by in an instate.

Run an APC into the outside of the class, engage through the windows, go mano a mano -- any action would have been better than their inaction,

SVaggie84 said:

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I was in a mass shooting.

It just happens so quick. Then you don't know how many people are shooting, and you don't know why.

Your adrenaline is so high. Your instincts take over.

I'm glad I had good instincts. I remember running out of the building on the opposite side of where the shooter came in, and co-workers were just standing around in the parking lot.

I immediately thought he could shoot out the window and ran through the building next door and then into a building even further away.

Then the police wouldn't let us leave and I was stuck for hours .

It's really easy to judge after the fact. Being in the situation is far different.

This was in 1989. I was in Sunnyvale, California. My parents were in Dallas. I did manage to call them and warn them that it would be on the news, and I was ok.

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Was this the ESL shootings?

I still want to know what dumb ass teacher decided to prop open a door after hearing gun shots.

MSCAg said:

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I still want to know what dumb ass teacher decided to prop open a door after hearing gun shots.

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Quote:

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11:28 a.m. After driving a block and a half, Ramos arrives at Robb Elementary. He crashes the car into a drainage ditch and exits through the passenger door, grabbing a backpack full of ammunition and an AR-15-style semi-automatic rifle.

Two employees of a nearby funeral home rush to the accident scene. Ramos shoots at them, and they retreat, uninjured. At the school, a teacher sees the crash and the armed man, props open a door on the west side and runs inside to get a phone.
11:30 a.m. The teacher comes back outside and calls 911. It is the first 911 call about the incident.

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I do not believe this part is correct. The teacher propped open the door when they came outside. Why would they prop it open going inside? The crash bar on the door allows exit, but not re-entry, which is why you'd prop it open. So you can get back in.

The early reports I saw said the teacher had propped open the door when they went outside. This was before anything happened (don't know why teacher was outside, smoke break maybe?). When Ramos crashed the truck is when the teacher went back inside to get a phone, then came back outside to call 911. The teacher either left the area (staying outside), or went back inside leaving the door propped open by mistake.

deddog said:

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chickencoupe16 said:

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I have never been in a situation even close to this and I have no idea how I would react. I would like to think that I would enter the classroom immediately regardless of the risk, but I have no clue. I would like to think that I could be a badass. But I have no idea and I hope I never find out. Jocko Willink has talked about a SEAL that lost it during their first mission in the Gulf War and never went out again.

So I can forgive someone for not being able to muster the courage. I can forgive an individual. But this wasn't one person that failed. It was dozens of individuals, entire agencies, decision makers that weren't even going to be the trigger pullers. And then, when actual badasses did show up and did want to go in, the cowards told them no.

---

Is there a better illustration of how government really works?

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Exactly.

Public school, public school system, and a policing function government run with multiple agencies confused and constipated when half-seconds count-and the real potential that multiple officers that day did not possess the right mindset.

Who had the right mindset ? Who took decisive action that day that actually saved lives? 1) Parents ( who ran in to get their kids out including some super woman who scaled a fence in direct disobedience and view of officers holding permiter) and 2) a few Bortac dudes who went "13 hours" on the situation and handled it.

The security model for schools needs to have people with the right mindset and the right incentive doing this work.

agracer said:

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MSCAg said:

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I still want to know what dumb ass teacher decided to prop open a door after hearing gun shots.

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Quote:

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11:28 a.m. After driving a block and a half, Ramos arrives at Robb Elementary. He crashes the car into a drainage ditch and exits through the passenger door, grabbing a backpack full of ammunition and an AR-15-style semi-automatic rifle.

Two employees of a nearby funeral home rush to the accident scene. Ramos shoots at them, and they retreat, uninjured. At the school, a teacher sees the crash and the armed man, props open a door on the west side and runs inside to get a phone.
11:30 a.m. The teacher comes back outside and calls 911. It is the first 911 call about the incident.

---

I do not believe this part is correct. The teacher propped open the door when they came outside. Why would they prop it open going inside? The crash bar on the door allows exit, but not re-entry, which is why you'd prop it open. So you can get back in.

The early reports I saw said the teacher had propped open the door when they went outside. This was before anything happened (don't know why teacher was outside, smoke break maybe?). When Ramos crashed the truck is when the teacher went back inside to get a phone, then came back outside to call 911. The teacher either left the area (staying outside), or went back inside leaving the door propped open by mistake.

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Either way, those doors are self locking for a reason. If the door wasn't propped open, that dude has a much harder time getting into the school.

Slide a camera under the door to see where the kids and shooter are. Or drill a hole in the wall and slide a camera in to get a view on the inside.

Have someone rattle a window to distract him while you battering ram the door down.

send someone into the interior ceiling who could then gain access to the room, lift a cieling tile, then shoot the attacker.

verify that no kids are lines up against the wall amd have someone ram a truck through the exterior wall while you bust down the door.

There are a million things that could have been done .

And yet these cowards sat on their thumbs. They should be run out on a rail and this should follow them for the rest of their lives.

fixer said:

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deddog said:

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chickencoupe16 said:

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I have never been in a situation even close to this and I have no idea how I would react. I would like to think that I would enter the classroom immediately regardless of the risk, but I have no clue. I would like to think that I could be a badass. But I have no idea and I hope I never find out. Jocko Willink has talked about a SEAL that lost it during their first mission in the Gulf War and never went out again.

So I can forgive someone for not being able to muster the courage. I can forgive an individual. But this wasn't one person that failed. It was dozens of individuals, entire agencies, decision makers that weren't even going to be the trigger pullers. And then, when actual badasses did show up and did want to go in, the cowards told them no.

---

Is there a better illustration of how government really works?

---

Exactly.

Public school, public school system, and a policing function government run with multiple agencies confused and constipated when half-seconds count-and the real potential that multiple officers that day did not possess the right mindset.

Who had the right mindset ? Who took decisive action that day that actually saved lives? 1) Parents ( who ran in to get their kids out including some super woman who scaled a fence in direct disobedience and view of officers holding permiter) and 2) a few Bortac dudes who went "13 hours" on the situation and handled it.

The security model for schools needs to have people with the right mindset and the right incentive doing this work.

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I would be 100% okay with cutting useless Diversity admin jobs and using that money to hire ex military for school security.

Give them AR style rifles and dare some ******* to do this again.