Womackster said:

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bmks270 said:

---

There are group setting studies where study participants when alone answer a simple question correctly 99% of the time, but in a setting of 3 others who choose the same wrong answer, the study participants copy the group and answer incorrectly over 70% of the time. Basically, people care a lot more about being aligned, or at least appearing to be aligned with group think than they do about truth.

---

Interesting. I wonder how much of the phenomenon is due to a desire to align with group think vs a lack of confidence in the subject of their own knowledge and intelligence.

---

The actions of thousands of russian armor crew in the last 60 days would agree with you.

Quote:

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So to summarize 9 out of 10 people

Are sheep and need to be loved by fellow sheep to provide self worth in this life.

---

And give this some cool scientific name so those sheep have something to point at until the next govt. attempt to take away individual freedom.

icrymyselftosleep said:

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Serotonin said:

---

Detmersdislocatedshoulder said:

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So to summarize 9 out of 10 people
Are sheep and need to be loved by fellow sheep to provide self worth in this life.

---

Yep.

Just like in Nazi Germany, there were 5% of people doing/orchestrating the evil, 90% going along with it, and 5% risking their reputations and lives to fight against it.

This is how it's always worked and why freedom of speech is so important.

Once you can silence the latter 5% then you have total control on narrative formation and the 90% will blindly follow.

---

Not sure F16 is ready to talk about the latter 5%. It was discussed a few weeks ago on F49 if you want to check out the thread though, it's kind of interesting.

---

You showed yourself to be foolish on that thread as well. Not sure why you would want to call attention to it.

We can talk about it there, if you want

Jeebus I miss Crichton.

Boo Weekley said:

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Jeeper79 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Why?

---

Because humans are largely wired to put their faith in something higher/bigger than themselves. You see the atheistic left increasingly embracing their political ideologies as their religion and behaving like blindly faithful and devout zealots. When told to jump by their pagan religious leaders, they don't even have to ask how high. They will ridicule and even hurt others who aren't jumping. They are simply less independent and FAR more susceptible to mass formation psychosis. This lack of independence would naturally make them more vulnerable to mimetic contagion as well. They mimic other fellow zealots and find kinship and comfort in being like minded lemmings.

Conservatives and Christians are far more likely to be independent and to put their faith in God over man. It's largely why this country was founded in such a unique and ground breaking form. Where rights came from God...where the government was designed to be the servants of the citizenry...not our controlling overlords.

From the onset of COVID, even before things became hyper political, liberals were FAR more likely to be blindly compliant to whatever their overlords commanded of the populace.

---

What about atheist conservatives?

On point.
Have a very religious, conservative buddy we are dealing with. Chalked it up to him being a well read historian and huge WWII buff, therefore, knowledgeable about hitler and the nazis. Figured he needed/felt a sense of "authoritarianism" through all this. He could recite CDC policy and followed every chart released about covid. Could not and still can't have a discussion about any of it.
Still trying to not lose him...

Climate change is s good example. Consensus is reached. Truth doesn't matter.

icrymyselftosleep said:

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We can talk about it there, if you want

---

I see you're getting your **** kicked on other boards too. Hilarious.

Fred,
Thanks for your input once again. It means absolutely nothing to me. Let's never do this again.
Yours truly.

^
|
|
speaking of a sheep

Most people want to be a part of something....a group, team, gang, church, Texags, anything...
It feels good to feel connected.
But, many people are willing to make that more important than their own personal values.

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Actually one can argue it is just as prevalent in religious communities as well. In any social grouping really. B/c it is common human behavior. People want to fit in, many times more than being "right". In religion, as a Christian, I see it all the time. Some have beliefs that I know that they have as they have told me in private yet amongst the group, like a Bible study, they are afraid to speak up when they disagree with the majority in the group. What I have noticed further is the tendency to not go against the group until a "champion" to that person's belief does speak up. For instance, issues like evolution, predetermination, sexual morays etc and what the Bible says or we have interpreted in the group it says vs what one may actually believes. All people can be victim to this type of behavior. But we need to realize it is better to speak up and question. Even the Bible B/c it will add to our understanding of what God truly wants for us in this instance. And I believe people need to feel free to question things in these settings. Just like we should feel free to question policies surrounding a pandemic and not be chastised or blocked from the rest of the group due to that questioning, like has happened on social media outlets like twitter. Why do healthy kids even need to be vaccinated. Why healthy adults under 50? What real benefits do masks provide? Why force others to mask? Why force kids to mask? Just b/c there are people with health problems, does that warrant a policy be enacted that limits the lives of the rest of us? But amongst my conservative brethren, I feel nervous to admit that I do not think the vaccine is at all dangerous. That it does impart protection against serious illness, hospitalization and death even with just 2 shots. But we also need to be aware of potential side effects over time as well. Again, this behavior can go both ways.

icrymyselftosleep said:

---

Fred,
Thanks for your input once again. It means absolutely nothing to me. Let's never do this again.
Yours truly.

---

Aww shucks. That's not the message you're sending with your signature which displays your inflated sense of self importance and need for attention.

TexAgs91 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Why?

---

Because humans are largely wired to put their faith in something higher/bigger than themselves. You see the atheistic left increasingly embracing their political ideologies as their religion and behaving like blindly faithful and devout zealots. When told to jump by their pagan religious leaders, they don't even have to ask how high. They will ridicule and even hurt others who aren't jumping. They are simply less independent and FAR more susceptible to mass formation psychosis. This lack of independence would naturally make them more vulnerable to mimetic contagion as well. They mimic other fellow zealots and find kinship and comfort in being like minded lemmings.

Conservatives and Christians are far more likely to be independent and to put their faith in God over man. It's largely why this country was founded in such a unique and ground breaking form. Where rights came from God...where the government was designed to be the servants of the citizenry...not our controlling overlords.

From the onset of COVID, even before things became hyper political, liberals were FAR more likely to be blindly compliant to whatever their overlords commanded of the populace.

---

What about atheist conservatives?

---

Atheist conservatives tend to be very independent as well. They just want to be left alone to determine their own destiny. Every bit as unlikely to be Covidiots imo. I only brought religion into play really to point out the misplaced faith of the left. It has become more of a religion or cult than a political party. One that naturally pushes them towards mass formation psychosis and mimetic contagion.

Kozmozag said:

---

Climate change is s good example. Consensus is reached. Truth doesn't matter.

---

I agree with that, somewhat. I think that people on both sides of this issue are victim to this group think. Those that believe the earth is coming to an end if we don't stop burning fossil fuels immediately and those that think that there is absolutely no way that human activity could possibly cause the earth to get warmer.

As a logical person, I don't know how you think that burning / releasing millions of tons of CO2 every day into the atmsophere - carbon that took eons to accumulate and remained sequestered under ground as coal or crude oil for millions of years - would not eventually increase the greenhouse effect of CO2 in our atmosphere.

I think it's something we should pay attention to, but I'm not in the camp that thinks that future catastrophe is inevitable.

Capitol Ag said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Actually one can argue it is just as prevalent in religious communities as well. In any social grouping really. B/c it is common human behavior. People want to fit in, many times more than being "right". In religion, as a Christian, I see it all the time. Some have beliefs that I know that they have as they have told me in private yet amongst the group, like a Bible study, they are afraid to speak up when they disagree with the majority in the group. What I have noticed further is the tendency to not go against the group until a "champion" to that person's belief does speak up. For instance, issues like evolution, predetermination, sexual morays etc and what the Bible says or we have interpreted in the group it says vs what one may actually believes. All people can be victim to this type of behavior. But we need to realize it is better to speak up and question. Even the Bible B/c it will add to our understanding of what God truly wants for us in this instance. And I believe people need to feel free to question things in these settings. Just like we should feel free to question policies surrounding a pandemic and not be chastised or blocked from the rest of the group due to that questioning, like has happened on social media outlets like twitter. Why do healthy kids even need to be vaccinated. Why healthy adults under 50? What real benefits do masks provide? Why force others to mask? Why force kids to mask? Just b/c there are people with health problems, does that warrant a policy be enacted that limits the lives of the rest of us? But amongst my conservative brethren, I feel nervous to admit that I do not think the vaccine is at all dangerous. That it does impart protection against serious illness, hospitalization and death even with just 2 shots. But we also need to be aware of potential side effects over time as well. Again, this behavior can go both ways.

---

Yes, every group has some degree of this going on, that is nothing new. But it would typically be at the smaller level...like a church, commune, family dinner table, group of friends on a hunting trip etc. To see it with HALF OF THE DAMN COUNTRY along political lines (which more and more are resembling religious lines) is pretty alarming...mostly because of the resentment and vindictiveness it fostered. It is relatively normal for the left to want to see unvaxxed lose their jobs and businesses. You literally had a large % of the left in Rasmussen polls saying they wanted to strip children from the unvaxxed and even put them in camps. This was like 40-50% of those polled...not 0.5-1%.

The pressure to fit in, or not be seen as a stand out/contrarian/someone against the norms, exists in just about every group and always has....from AA groups to Navy Seal units. We are ALL guilty of it. That is not the context with which we are discussing these phenomenon though.

Boo Weekley said:

---

TexAgs91 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Why?

---

Because humans are largely wired to put their faith in something higher/bigger than themselves. You see the atheistic left increasingly embracing their political ideologies as their religion and behaving like blindly faithful and devout zealots. When told to jump by their pagan religious leaders, they don't even have to ask how high. They will ridicule and even hurt others who aren't jumping. They are simply less independent and FAR more susceptible to mass formation psychosis. This lack of independence would naturally make them more vulnerable to mimetic contagion as well. They mimic other fellow zealots and find kinship and comfort in being like minded lemmings.

Conservatives and Christians are far more likely to be independent and to put their faith in God over man. It's largely why this country was founded in such a unique and ground breaking form. Where rights came from God...where the government was designed to be the servants of the citizenry...not our controlling overlords.

From the onset of COVID, even before things became hyper political, liberals were FAR more likely to be blindly compliant to whatever their overlords commanded of the populace.

---

What about atheist conservatives?

---

Atheist conservatives tend to be very independent as well. They just want to be left alone to determine their own destiny. Every bit as unlikely to be Covidiots imo. I only brought religion into play really to point out the misplaced faith of the left. It has become more of a religion or cult than a political party. One that naturally pushes them towards mass formation psychosis and mimetic contagion.

---

Looks like the key variable is the party affiliation then

Quote:

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People buy into the narrative, even when it becomes absurd and out of touch with facts on the ground, not because they believe in the narrative, but precisely because it creates a social bond that they don't want to relinquish. As in hypnosis, their field of vision becomes excessively narrowed, focused exclusively on the elements of the accepted narrative. They may be dimly aware of collateral damage or contradictory facts, but these have little to no cognitive or emotional impactevidence simply ceases to matter.

---

This is an amazingly succinct description of the current leftist thought process. It isn't a thought process at all, it's an overly emotional mob orbiting different narratives.

Quote:

---

In extreme cases, masses become capable of committing atrocities, all the while believing they are performing an almost sacral duty for the greater good. As Gustave Le Bon, author of the 1895 classic work, The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind, pointed out: if those who are awake try to wake up those who are sleepwalking, they will initially meet with little success; however, they must continue to try, peacefully and nonviolently, to prevent the worst outcomes. Any violence will be used as an excuse for the aggressors to increase their persecution and repression. So it is important to continue to speak the truth and exercise nonviolent resistance.

---

.

This line of thinking has a limit though.

When "the mass" is telling it's victims or targets to 'load into the train' then being "careful exercising non violent resistance" is a self defeating and empty pragmatism.

TexAgs91 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

TexAgs91 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Why?

---

Because humans are largely wired to put their faith in something higher/bigger than themselves. You see the atheistic left increasingly embracing their political ideologies as their religion and behaving like blindly faithful and devout zealots. When told to jump by their pagan religious leaders, they don't even have to ask how high. They will ridicule and even hurt others who aren't jumping. They are simply less independent and FAR more susceptible to mass formation psychosis. This lack of independence would naturally make them more vulnerable to mimetic contagion as well. They mimic other fellow zealots and find kinship and comfort in being like minded lemmings.

Conservatives and Christians are far more likely to be independent and to put their faith in God over man. It's largely why this country was founded in such a unique and ground breaking form. Where rights came from God...where the government was designed to be the servants of the citizenry...not our controlling overlords.

From the onset of COVID, even before things became hyper political, liberals were FAR more likely to be blindly compliant to whatever their overlords commanded of the populace.

---

What about atheist conservatives?

---

Atheist conservatives tend to be very independent as well. They just want to be left alone to determine their own destiny. Every bit as unlikely to be Covidiots imo. I only brought religion into play really to point out the misplaced faith of the left. It has become more of a religion or cult than a political party. One that naturally pushes them towards mass formation psychosis and mimetic contagion.

---

Looks like the key variable is the party affiliation then

---

While I do agree with that...to me, it's not simply "party affiliation" on the left any more. Those days are over. This is more of a religion/cult than anything nowadays...nothing can make me bend on this. I have witnessed old well educated successful HS friends who have gone woke lose their minds and buy into the most stupid sh** like sheep. They exhibit a religious zeal more than anything.

I would like to see studies though...to see if atheist conservatives were more likely, less likely, or equally likely to wear useless masks to some degree than non atheist conservatives.

Well this thread took an interesting turn! The behavior of those under mass formation does seem quite cult like. Hopefully they can be convinced and swayed back to reality before they completely ruin theirs and their families and friends lives...

American Hardwood said:

---

This explains the behavior of deviants. A deviant cannot be happy existing in the margins because of the inherent human desire to belong to a group. However, the deviant is also not willing to conform to the standards of the non-deviant so he/she is driven to create more deviants and legitimize the deviancy in order to satisfy the need to feel normal and accepted.

I would also contend that the more severe the deviancy from the normal, the more dramatic the effort to normalize and grow the deviancy will become.

---

.

Like groomers?

kb2001 said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Why?

---

Leftism focuses on the collective, conservatism focuses on the individual. Under an extreme left economic system, the fruits of labor belong to the collective. Under extreme conservatism, the fruits of labor belong to the individual.

Conservatism is about getting everyone to leave you alone, leftism is about getting everyone to agree with you.

---

Giving collectivism too much credit. Powerful individuals and their inner circle always end up with most of the benefits.

Detmersdislocatedshoulder said:

---

So to summarize 9 out of 10 people
Are sheep and need to be loved by fellow sheep to provide self worth in this life.

---

Bingo!

Boo Weekley said:

---

I would like to see studies though...to see if atheist conservatives were more likely, less likely, or equally likely to wear useless masks to some degree than non atheist conservatives.

---

Anecdotal, but as one myself, no, masks are useless and used by the left to show compliance.

Boo Weekley said:

---

Capitol Ag said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Actually one can argue it is just as prevalent in religious communities as well. In any social grouping really. B/c it is common human behavior. People want to fit in, many times more than being "right". In religion, as a Christian, I see it all the time. Some have beliefs that I know that they have as they have told me in private yet amongst the group, like a Bible study, they are afraid to speak up when they disagree with the majority in the group. What I have noticed further is the tendency to not go against the group until a "champion" to that person's belief does speak up. For instance, issues like evolution, predetermination, sexual morays etc and what the Bible says or we have interpreted in the group it says vs what one may actually believes. All people can be victim to this type of behavior. But we need to realize it is better to speak up and question. Even the Bible B/c it will add to our understanding of what God truly wants for us in this instance. And I believe people need to feel free to question things in these settings. Just like we should feel free to question policies surrounding a pandemic and not be chastised or blocked from the rest of the group due to that questioning, like has happened on social media outlets like twitter. Why do healthy kids even need to be vaccinated. Why healthy adults under 50? What real benefits do masks provide? Why force others to mask? Why force kids to mask? Just b/c there are people with health problems, does that warrant a policy be enacted that limits the lives of the rest of us? But amongst my conservative brethren, I feel nervous to admit that I do not think the vaccine is at all dangerous. That it does impart protection against serious illness, hospitalization and death even with just 2 shots. But we also need to be aware of potential side effects over time as well. Again, this behavior can go both ways.

---

Yes, every group has some degree of this going on, that is nothing new. But it would typically be at the smaller level...like a church, commune, family dinner table, group of friends on a hunting trip etc. To see it with HALF OF THE DAMN COUNTRY along political lines (which more and more are resembling religious lines) is pretty alarming...mostly because of the resentment and vindictiveness it fostered. It is relatively normal for the left to want to see unvaxxed lose their jobs and businesses. You literally had a large % of the left in Rasmussen polls saying they wanted to strip children from the unvaxxed and even put them in camps. This was like 40-50% of those polled...not 0.5-1%.

The pressure to fit in, or not be seen as a stand out/contrarian/someone against the norms, exists in just about every group and always has....from AA groups to Navy Seal units. We are ALL guilty of it. That is not the context with which we are discussing these phenomenon though.

---

I agree. I was just pointing out the assertion that religious people are immune from this.

Back to your overall point. I also blame social media and things like twitter (hopefully this will change now) where things become so volatile only to result in the "unpopular" opinion being erased or blocked. Great if you are on the side that currently has control. But what happens when the other side eventually gains control? The left has had the luxury of being able to run a lot of tech businesses. But the pendulum also swings back. What happens then if these are the rules that the controlling group gets to enforce?
We live in a country where each state is really starting to look like a different country. A true definition of the term "state" where cultural differences are almost night and day. My wife, for instance, went to a trade show in Boston this past week and the trade show was enforcing a mask mandate. The city doesn't actually have one but the group putting on the trade show is doing it. But we all know, certain parts of the country embrace mitigation, even today when the risks for covid are very minor and as much if not less than the flu currently. Than she comes back here to TX and it's not even a thought or worry that you'll need to bring a mask somewhere outside of medical offices (which also needs to stop as they should know better). Hell, I don't bring them there either. They can hand me one but many times they don't even say anything to me. My attitude is if you really are that determined to keep masking around, you provide the masks. On your dime.

McKelveysCurse said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

There are group setting studies where study participants when alone answer a simple question correctly 99% of the time, but in a setting of 3 others who choose the same wrong answer, the study participants copy the group and answer incorrectly over 70% of the time. Basically, people care a lot more about being aligned, or at least appearing to be aligned with group think than they do about truth.

---

Yes, the data supports this on many issues.

---

This is why polls are so loved, because they know whatever is reported as the majority opinion, will influence a large number of people to lean that way.

Womackster said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

There are group setting studies where study participants when alone answer a simple question correctly 99% of the time, but in a setting of 3 others who choose the same wrong answer, the study participants copy the group and answer incorrectly over 70% of the time. Basically, people care a lot more about being aligned, or at least appearing to be aligned with group think than they do about truth.

---

Interesting. I wonder how much of the phenomenon is due to a desire to align with group think vs a lack of confidence in the subject of their own knowledge and intelligence.

---

They were asked which line was the same length as a reference line.


https://practicalpie.com/asch-line-study/

icrymyselftosleep said:

---

Serotonin said:

---

Detmersdislocatedshoulder said:

---

So to summarize 9 out of 10 people
Are sheep and need to be loved by fellow sheep to provide self worth in this life.

---

Yep.

Just like in Nazi Germany, there were 5% of people doing/orchestrating the evil, 90% going along with it, and 5% risking their reputations and lives to fight against it.

This is how it's always worked and why freedom of speech is so important.

Once you can silence the latter 5% then you have total control on narrative formation and the 90% will blindly follow.

---

Not sure F16 is ready to talk about the latter 5%. It was discussed a few weeks ago on F49 if you want to check out the thread though, it's kind of interesting.

---

Your signature used to be No Pasaran! so you obviously have some insight. Can you expand on your statement, it seems relevant.

No problem. Start a thread on F49 (or go to the old one) and we can discuss it there.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

---

kb2001 said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Boo Weekley said:

---

Makes sense that this type of mentality would be FAR more prevalent among non-religious people on the left.

---

Why?

---

Leftism focuses on the collective, conservatism focuses on the individual. Under an extreme left economic system, the fruits of labor belong to the collective. Under extreme conservatism, the fruits of labor belong to the individual.

Conservatism is about getting everyone to leave you alone, leftism is about getting everyone to agree with you.

---

Giving collectivism too much credit. Powerful individuals and their inner circle always end up with most of the benefits.

---

I gave zero credit to collectivism, I simply describe the core tenet behind collectivism. It is a fact that collectivists believe that production should be determined by the group, and that all labor is performed at the direction of and for the benefit of the group. It breaks down for many reasons, including that which you describe, but the core tenet is what it is. Animal Farm illustrates the outcome you describe perfectly.