There is a very strong presumption against targeting civilian infrastructure. You need good intelligence setting out the factual basis, there are proportionality considerations, most in the civilized world would say you need to provide a warning ahead of time and let folks leave first, you need to show the target is "directly participating" and actually causing harm, etc., etc., etc.
And just on a practical and common sense level, when you start an unlawful war in the first place, you're not deserving of sympathy both legally and in public discourse when you attack civilians who are, at most, trying to defend themselves. Using an unlawful war to justify leveling civilian infrastructure isn't solid reasoning.
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.
So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?
That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.
It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.
If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.
The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.
The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.
Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.
Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.
what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?
Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.
All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.
That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.
"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."
-Russians
"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"
-Rebel
And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
Get yourself a more accurate drone!
Oh wait, Russia can't make those!
I'm basically as pro-Ukrainian as anyone on here, but Rebel E isn't wrong here. Neither are the Ukes. Now a caveat to that: I'm speaking about shelling front line positions that have apartment or other types of residential buildings as they will be used by defenders. The Russians are also using cluster munitions into residential areas far behind the front lines. The obvious example is Kharkiv. So yes, they shouldn't be doing that but at the line of contact and a few hundred plus yards behind or any building they receive fire from is a legitimate target. And yes that sucks and will lead to civvy casualties. But that's the reality of war.
He is certainly wrong there when talking broadly about artillery and armor "around the area." If you can't maintain proportionality, it's unlawful to attack.
And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
Withdraw back to your prior borders. I mean, there was no justification for Putin to invade, except for his made up excuses.
Putin's main problem is this war has galvanized most of the world against him. NATO is growing stronger, countries are sourcing other fuel. If he's under the delusion that he 'wins' and suddenly world markets open back up, he's going to be highly surprised. Even if he does win, he'll have to face an insurgency that will be well financed and supplied by western countries. He's going to have to move in nearly a million troops to pacify the area, while at the same time having markets closed off. The longer the sanctions are in place, the more of a domestic revolt he'll also have to deal with.
A bottom line takeaway is "this is hard, this is too complicated" is part of the point of the laws of war.
We don't want to get to the point where we're parsing whether blowing an apartment building in two or blowing up a train station is legal or not. It's hard to legally invade an urban area and that's the way it is supposed to be.
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.
So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?
That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.
It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.
If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.
The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.
The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.
Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.
Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.
what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?
Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.
All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.
That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.
"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."
-Russians
"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"
-Rebel
And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
Get yourself a more accurate drone!
Oh wait, Russia can't make those!
I'm basically as pro-Ukrainian as anyone on here, but Rebel E isn't wrong here. Neither are the Ukes. Now a caveat to that: I'm speaking about shelling front line positions that have apartment or other types of residential buildings as they will be used by defenders. The Russians are also using cluster munitions into residential areas far behind the front lines. The obvious example is Kharkiv. So yes, they shouldn't be doing that but at the line of contact and a few hundred plus yards behind or any building they receive fire from is a legitimate target. And yes that sucks and will lead to civvy casualties. But that's the reality of war.
Obviously it was meant in jest...sort of.
It's true the Russians don't have the capability to produce much of any kind sophisticated weaponry since the war started and the sanctions were imposed. They don't seem to need them to wage war as they prefer, for now, anyway, or until they run out of raw material and electronics to make more.
But if we take into serious consideration that Russia's MO in war is to indiscriminately destroy the enemy, as it has been stated so many times on this thread, then why should they care to develop a precision capability?
That having been said, it's a stupid way to wage war if the intent is to take control of land. Perhaps t's a good way to eliminate a population but not w/o the international outrage, sanctions and accusations of genocide.
Imagine the infrastructural reconstruction costs that will be required at the end of hostilities? I haven't bothered to look at the results of the wars in Georgia the rest, so...
I'll just leave it alone to say Putin is an idiot. He can't afford to reconstruct Ukraine, Russia is a third world country with nukes, not much better than Pakistan or India. If Russia wins, the cities and towns will remain trash heaps for a long time to come.
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.
So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?
That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.
It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.
If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.
The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.
The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.
Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.
Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.
what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?
Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.
All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.
That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.
"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."
-Russians
"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"
-Rebel
And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
You attack the artillery and armor with PGM's as opposed to blanketing a residential area with unguided artillery and cluster munitions. For one, the likelihood you hit something not what you're shooting at is much higher than hitting something you are. For two, such munitions are designed for massed troop concentrations in open terrain or established positions/bases, not randomly distributed in urban areas, specifically because you're not likely to hit anything with them in such a scenario since they aren't concentrated. For three, I have a hard time seeing how Ukrainians are going to hide artillery and armor in mid-rise apartments.
You also need to actually show there's artillery and armor there because in all of the areas they've shelled, you know what's missing? Burned out armor and artillery pieces.
Also, it helps when you don't invade someone else's country without direct provocation. As long as they're on Ukrainian soil, the onus is on the Russians to target the Ukrainian army and only the Ukrainian army because without their decision to invade, everyone would be left with the peaceful status quo. It's like me breaking into your house, blasting everything with a shotgun, and then blaming you for your wife and kids getting killed by buckshot because I couldn't know who was in what room, but there might have been someone with a gun somewhere. Well it's your damn fault for existing.
Meanwhile on Russian state TV: head of RT Margarita Simonyan remembers her days as a proud pioneer drummer, demands less freedom, more censorshipโjust like China or the USSR. "We're all waiting for this," she claims. pic.twitter.com/gnaGrl7tBF
Also, whatโs @EmmanuelMacron said about โbrotherโs nationโ is disgusting. I really want to burp. Thatโs really sad that France choosing own president between a coward and a nazi.
Said like someone making their case to join the elite class and oppress everyone else. Said like the royals and elites in France before their revolution.
Unfortunately, the Dems will have to rewrite Biden's next speech to avoid plagiarism.
In yet another genius strategic move, Russia may be in the process of sacrificing the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet for a deception operation to distract from the build up in the east.
Look, we are all arguing that limited ROE is better. The fact is, if Putin wants to go into Ukraine and level all the cities and murder everyone, he can. But that would be even less smart than starting this war in the first place. What we are seeing now is horrific, and shouldn't be happening. There will be a price to pay.
In yet another genius strategic move, Russia may be in the process of sacrificing the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet for a deception operation to distract from the build up in the east.
Seven and three are ten, not only now, but forever. There has never been a time when seven and three were not ten, nor will there ever be a time when they are not ten. Therefore, I have said that the truth of number is incorruptible and common to all who think. โ St. Augustine
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.
So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?
That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.
It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.
If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.
The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.
The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.
Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.
Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.
what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?
Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.
All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.
That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.
"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."
-Russians
"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"
-Rebel
And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
Here's a tip - Maybe don't invade another country who has done nothing to you?
The agency noted a rising number of reports of Ukrainian women feeling unsafe while staying with male sponsors, as well as concerns about the sustainability of such a project.
— The Kyiv Independent (@KyivIndependent) April 14, 2022
The โpeacefulโ EU has pledged to increase military aid to Kiev to 1.5 bn. euros.
โ๏ธThe EUโs hypocrisy is boundless: assistance to Ukrainian nationalists, who will use it to kill civilians with impunity, is being provided via Europe Peace Foundation.
๐ฌ#Zakharova: London successfully exports its colonial methods. The methods of suppressing the Donbass were obviously taught by British instructors and political mentors.
โWe wonder if the Ukrainians understand that London uses them as a typical colonial cannon fodder? pic.twitter.com/JJgfb603wF
The โpeacefulโ EU has pledged to increase military aid to Kiev to 1.5 bn. euros.
โ๏ธThe EUโs hypocrisy is boundless: assistance to Ukrainian nationalists, who will use it to kill civilians with impunity, is being provided via Europe Peace Foundation.
๐ฌ#Zakharova: London successfully exports its colonial methods. The methods of suppressing the Donbass were obviously taught by British instructors and political mentors.
โWe wonder if the Ukrainians understand that London uses them as a typical colonial cannon fodder? pic.twitter.com/JJgfb603wF
The height of absurdity to be lectured about colonial methods by Russia.
The Russian state, in its various guises, is the greatest mass murderer in the history of Europe. They are second only to the Chinese Communist Party, whom they themselves inspired and ideologically birthed.
No nation has inflicted more damaging evil on humanity than the Russians have. From millions of unmarked graves stretching from Spain to Siberia to the moral wreckage wrought by the Marxism they cynically cultivated as if in a laboratory and infected the world with. No punishment is too severe for the whirlwind the Russians have sowed.
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.
So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?
That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.
It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.
If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.
The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.
The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.
Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.
Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.
what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?
Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.
All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.
That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.
"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."
-Russians
"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"
-Rebel
excellent points.
Israel faces a much worse dilemma because the Hamas and Hizbullah LITERALLY hide in houses, dig tunnels under houses and fire rockets and missiles from schools, hospitals, public buildings.
and LITERALLY the Israelis will call up the cell phones of the residents of a building and tell them they have 5 minutes to leave the building before it is hit.
The most striking example of Russian oligarch sanction enforcement by the West to date. Also, it is clear that Abramovich's role in the Russia-Ukraine peace talks has not taken the pressure off him. https://t.co/5lCCqd5oYs
Comparisons of this kind are already illegal in Russia but the new bill approved by the Federation Council today will tighten this significantl
The debate was between Alexei Pushkov, who acknowledged symbolic elements, and Nikolay Ryzhov, who wants something much more stringent pic.twitter.com/kHr6mC7Pcf
OTD in 1990 Soviet Union admitted that Soviet Union carried out Katyn massacre. These are Soviet documents with Stalin personally approving the murder of 22,000 Poles.
