***** OFFICIAL Russia v. Ukraine *****

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Rossticus
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In reply to The Debt • 11:28p, 4/12/22
You're the one that posted the Newsweek article you ding-dong, and when I point out that you goofed you then come back with one that's "actually verified" but also actually speculative as well. You're all over the map. Let me simplify this for everyone.

1) All war crimes are bad.

2) All war crimes should be investigated and prosecuted without regard to the side it applies to.

3) There is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence for Russian war crimes against thousands upon thousands of civilians on a nationwide scale such that their occurrence is beyond reasonable doubt. In legal parlance, a reasonable person, when presented with the evidence that exists, would not doubt that the actions in question have occurred.

4) Russia has denied responsibility for every occurrence and presented all occurrences as either full fabrication or having been perpetrated by Ukrainians on their own people. All have been alleged by Russia to have been covered up by the U.S. and UK.

5) All war crimes are bad but those against helpless civilians are the most egregious and unforgivable and should be prosecuted with extreme prejudice.

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GAC06
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12:19a, 4/13/22
AG
What a beat down. Tough night for Ivan
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Ulysses90
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In reply to RebelE Infantry • 4:56a, 4/13/22
AG
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.







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RebelE Infantry
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In reply to Ulysses90 • 7:04a, 4/13/22
AG
Ulysses90 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.









The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.

The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.

Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.


Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.
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JJxvi
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7:36a, 4/13/22
AG
Ha ha ha, The Debt! The imperialists have played your boy Putin like a fiddle. Made him commit blunder of all blunders and now glorious empire of NATO expands again into Scandinavia! Finland is next, soon the NATO artillery will be bristling down upon glorious St Petersburg. Your hero Putin is fool! Blinded by the Ukrainian trap, ranting about negotiator's insulting wardrobes! All while the imperialist trap snaps shut. Bahahaha.
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rgag12
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 8:07a, 4/13/22
AG
ABATTBQ11 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.


No. None of those things is, "Could this have happened? Sure." The satellite imagery timestamps a window of when those people were killed and appeared in the street, and it was while the Russians decidedly controlled the area. The bodies in the satellite imagery were find by the Ukrainians after the Russians left, and many were bound and/shot to death.

There is no reasonable alternative explanation. Stop trying to find any excuse you can to wave away Russian murder.


Ignoring the fact that anything digital can be forged, your fact pattern also could point to civilians being killed by Ukrainian shelling, then bound up and laid out for propaganda purposes by the Ukrainians.

Did isolated pockets of Russian atrocities occur? Undoubtedly, but it's a little hard to believe that Russians carried out pogroms in the streets and conveniently left all the evidence of their handiwork out in the open for western media to consume.

The only thing that's going to convince me that widespread Russian atrocities occurred is way more time and way more analysis of the evidence
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aTmAg
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8:10a, 4/13/22
AG
Dude.. you pro-Russian apologists are making asses of yourselves, aggies, conservatives, and Americans as a whole. It's going into holocaust denial level idiocy now.
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FriscoKid
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In reply to aTmAg • 8:15a, 4/13/22
AG
aTmAg said:
Dude.. you pro-Russian apologists are making asses of yourselves, aggies, conservatives, and Americans as a whole. It's going into holocaust denial level idiocy, now.

Yep, it's not hard. Putin invaded a free country UNPROVOKED. And, now his soldiers are raping and killing thousands of innocent citizens.
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richardag
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In reply to The Debt • 8:25a, 4/13/22
The Debt said:
Bottlerocket said:
Debt claiming Russians are doing their best to not intentionally kill civilians is an utter joke. Any plausible counter arguments you tried to make earlier are all lost now.
Russians targeted a train station with women and children fleeing and killed 57 - no where near a military site. What about the bomb shelter clearly labeled (in Russian) children inside? Or the maternity hospital?

Do better - research before spouting these lies.

US army, Bravo company would like a word with you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings

Men do evil. Flag and creed are no protection.

The rational basis is "was it ordered?" Or "was it passively allowed by the command structure?"

I will not deny russians are doing evil things in a war. There is no war were this doesnt happen, but the existence of wrong only flows upward if it is the MO of the military. See Imperial Japan in Nanking.
Were they prosecuted?
Will the Russian soldiers and those who gave the orders to indiscriminately bomb civilians and rape and kill civilians be prosecuted?
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
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AlaskanAg99
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8:32a, 4/13/22
AG
Time to put the Debt on ignore. I mean, this guy is bat**** levels of crazy. Either that or everyone just needs to start flagging him for trolling.
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aezmvp
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In reply to JJxvi • 9:01a, 4/13/22
JJxvi said:
Ha ha ha, The Debt! The imperialists have played your boy Putin like a fiddle. Made him commit blunder of all blunders and now glorious empire of NATO expands again into Scandinavia! Finland is next, soon the NATO artillery will be bristling down upon glorious St Petersburg. Your hero Putin is fool! Blinded by the Ukrainian trap, ranting about negotiator's insulting wardrobes! All while the imperialist trap snaps shut. Bahahaha.
Oh man I forgot how he was complaining that the Ukes weren't in suits during negotiations.

"Yeah, but were they wearing a suit?" should be up there with two teas.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to JJxvi • 9:14a, 4/13/22
AG
JJxvi said:
Ha ha ha, The Debt! The imperialists have played your boy Putin like a fiddle. Made him commit blunder of all blunders and now glorious empire of NATO expands again into Scandinavia! Finland is next, soon the NATO artillery will be bristling down upon glorious St Petersburg. Your hero Putin is fool! Blinded by the Ukrainian trap, ranting about negotiator's insulting wardrobes! All while the imperialist trap snaps shut. Bahahaha.


Quite possibly the funniest post I'll read all month
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P.U.T.U
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9:48a, 4/13/22
AG
There are several retired American special operations soldiers on the ground that have pictures and videos of everything. To deny Russian war crimes is like denying the Holocaust
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Rossticus
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In reply to rgag12 • 10:06a, 4/13/22
rgag12 said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.


No. None of those things is, "Could this have happened? Sure." The satellite imagery timestamps a window of when those people were killed and appeared in the street, and it was while the Russians decidedly controlled the area. The bodies in the satellite imagery were find by the Ukrainians after the Russians left, and many were bound and/shot to death.

There is no reasonable alternative explanation. Stop trying to find any excuse you can to wave away Russian murder.


Ignoring the fact that anything digital can be forged, your fact pattern also could point to civilians being killed by Ukrainian shelling, then bound up and laid out for propaganda purposes by the Ukrainians.

Did isolated pockets of Russian atrocities occur? Undoubtedly, but it's a little hard to believe that Russians carried out pogroms in the streets and conveniently left all the evidence of their handiwork out in the open for western media to consume.

The only thing that's going to convince me that widespread Russian atrocities occurred is way more time and way more analysis of the evidence


"but it's a little hard to believe that Russians carried out pogroms in the streets and conveniently left all the evidence of their handiwork out in the open for western media to consume."

What, in your opinion, would the average Russian soldier have done to hide all those bodies so that nobody would know what happened?

"could point to civilians being killed by Ukrainian shelling, then bound up and laid out for propaganda purposes"

You feel that the obscenely complex operation to fake this, ie fabricate all the evidence that's been presented, silence all the witnesses, procure fake witnesses, locate, identify, and transport thousands of bodies across various locations that died in shelling but don't display signs of being shelled so that they can be shot post mortem, mass graves dug (all perfectly and within an absurdly brief period of time) is a more believable scenario than the Russian military doing it, consistent with their proven behaviors in numerous other conflicts? Am I understanding you correctly?

"way more analysis of the evidence"

What additional forensic techniques are you wanting to see the results of that you feel will present a more conclusive picture?
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Rossticus
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11:09a, 4/13/22


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Rossticus
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11:11a, 4/13/22
Certainly an interesting protest…

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Tex117
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In reply to Rossticus • 11:29a, 4/13/22
AG
Rossticus said:


Absolute idiot.

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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to Rossticus • 11:29a, 4/13/22
AG
Well she just committed political suicide...
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to AlaskanAg99 • 11:30a, 4/13/22
AG
AlaskanAg99 said:
Time to put the Debt on ignore. I mean, this guy is bat**** levels of crazy. Either that or everyone just needs to start flagging him for trolling.


He's not the only delusional one around here either.
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LMCane
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In reply to RebelE Infantry • 11:34a, 4/13/22
RebelE Infantry said:
Ulysses90 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.









The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.

The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.

Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.


Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.


what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?
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FriscoKid
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11:35a, 4/13/22
AG


The moderation is just plain stupid though. Does an Internet mod at Twitter really have the knowledge to know what is true and what is not??? Leave it up and let the group poke holes in it. I really don't understand what drives social media companies to think that they are the truth machine.

I would bet that they don't care about the truth. They just care about the story (just like the MSM).

I think RWA was wrong, but they should be allowed to be wrong in the public square of discourse.
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aezmvp
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 11:38a, 4/13/22
ABATTBQ11 said:
Well she just committed political suicide...
Yeah I mean the European far right is kinda nutty tbh. I get collective groups and alliances being overbearing and dangerous. I really do. But leaving NATO in the middle of a Russian offensive war in Europe seems... odd.
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AlaskanAg99
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 11:39a, 4/13/22
AG
ABATTBQ11 said:
AlaskanAg99 said:
Time to put the Debt on ignore. I mean, this guy is bat**** levels of crazy. Either that or everyone just needs to start flagging him for trolling.


He's not the only delusional one around here either.
I'm aware, but no ag tag, so simply a troll.
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aggiehawg
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In reply to FriscoKid • 11:39a, 4/13/22
AG
FriscoKid said:


The moderation is just plain stupid though. Does an Internet mod at Twitter really have the knowledge to know what is true and what is not??? Leave it up and let the group poke holes in it. I really don't understand what drives social media companies to think that they are the truth machine.

I would bet that they don't care about the truth. They just care about the story (just like the MSM).

I think RWA was wrong, but they should be allowed to be wrong in the public square of discourse.
Agree. It may be Russian propaganda, it may not but allow it.
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Rossticus
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In reply to aggiehawg • 11:48a, 4/13/22
Agreed. Not supportive of this move. We're not at proper war with Russia and the only circumstances under which this is remotely debatable is if mandated under wartime powers dictated by law. I don't see any justifiable grounds by which to shut this account down.
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RebelE Infantry
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In reply to LMCane • 11:52a, 4/13/22
AG
LMCane said:
RebelE Infantry said:
Ulysses90 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.









The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.

The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.

Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.


Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.


what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?


Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.

All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.
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Rossticus
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11:54a, 4/13/22
One thing to keep in mind is that the account MAY have been spammed in order to trigger auto moderation. Upon closer individual review it may be unblocked.

This same thing has happened to pro-Ukrainian accounts from the Russian side since the beginning of the war (Russian troll/bit game is strong) so it may be a matter of turnabout and a digital pissing contest at this point.
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FriscoKid
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12:00p, 4/13/22
AG
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Rossticus
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In reply to FriscoKid • 12:02p, 4/13/22
So are you trying to tell me that Russian restriction and manipulation of information is orders of magnitude greater than in the US? UNPOSSIBLE!

Actually, Twitter IS banned in Russia so maybe it's simply a logical extension to respect Russian law and ban Russians from Twitter. It's what Putin would want. Hmmmmm…
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to RebelE Infantry • 12:07p, 4/13/22
AG
RebelE Infantry said:
LMCane said:
RebelE Infantry said:
Ulysses90 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.









The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.

The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.

Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.


Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.


what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?


Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.

All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.


That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.

"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."

-Russians


"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"

-Rebel
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Rossticus
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12:08p, 4/13/22
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RebelE Infantry
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 12:19p, 4/13/22
AG
ABATTBQ11 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
LMCane said:
RebelE Infantry said:
Ulysses90 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.









The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.

The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.

Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.


Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.


what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?


Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.

All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.


That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.

"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."

-Russians


"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"

-Rebel


And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
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VitruvianAg
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In reply to RebelE Infantry • 12:23p, 4/13/22
AG
RebelE Infantry said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
LMCane said:
RebelE Infantry said:
Ulysses90 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.









The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.

The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.

Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.


Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.


what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?


Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.

All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.


That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.

"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."

-Russians


"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"

-Rebel


And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
Get yourself a more accurate drone!


Oh wait, Russia can't make those!
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aezmvp
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In reply to VitruvianAg • 12:31p, 4/13/22
VitruvianAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
LMCane said:
RebelE Infantry said:
Ulysses90 said:
RebelE Infantry said:
BusterAg said:
RebelE Infantry said:
That's not true at all. But if it's a prevailing narrative coming from our media, I'm going to assume it's a lie until proven otherwise.


So, satellite imagery provided by the US government of civilian bodies on the street were just made up?


That there were bodies on the street does not tell us the circumstances under which they got there. Could the Russians have dragged out civilians that they had identified as friendly and shot them for no reason? Sure. Could the civilians have been caught in an artillery attack? Sure. Could the Ukrainians have come through and shot civilians marked as Russian friendlies? Sure. Have seen very little evidence pointing to any one conclusion thus far.

It's going to take a little more than "trust us, the Russians did these war crimes because Russians bad" from the very people who stand to benefit the most from atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians for me to believe it. Especially since those same people have outright lied so many times.

If your eyes were not clinched shut you could see the evidence yourself. You willfully ignore and dismiss the evidence that it provided.









The first video may actually be a war crime. The only other explanation is he got too close to the military convoy and somehow missed a warning or something.

The second video is a Ukrainian vehicle lol.

Third video could also be criminal, but kind of hard to prove when Ukrainian troops have been known to use civilian vehicles. Not to mention the government threw open the doors of the armories and gave weapons to any and all comers. A consequence of that is now pretty much any civilian must be looked at with suspicion. Does it excuse the killing of innocents? Unequivocally no. But it can lead to more accidental killings.


Again, I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen. I'm saying there has been very little in the way of proof to the claims that Russians are indiscriminately killing civilians on a wide scale. And without proof I am very skeptical of such claims coming from sources who have the most to gain from them and have spread falsehoods before.


what do you call indiscriminate shelling of civilian apartments with cluster munitions?


Well, the sticky thing about that is apartments are being used as defensive fighting positions. In fact much of Ukraine's defensive strategy calls for turning cities into strongholds. So it's not quite as black and white as we may like it to be. It's very different from Ukraine declaring a city open and then the Russians firing on it anyway.

All that said of course shelling civilian buildings for the sake of shelling them is criminal.


That's bull**** when you shell them with MLRS from 30 miles away, but keep making whatever excuses make you feel better.

"Well, we don't know where they are, better level everything just to be sure. Start with the residential areas."

-Russians


"It's ok because the Ukrainian army is somewhere in the city. What are the Russians supposed to do, go door to door?"

-Rebel


And what about when you have Ukrainian artillery and armor emplaced around these areas? What then?
Get yourself a more accurate drone!


Oh wait, Russia can't make those!
I'm basically as pro-Ukrainian as anyone on here, but Rebel E isn't wrong here. Neither are the Ukes. Now a caveat to that: I'm speaking about shelling front line positions that have apartment or other types of residential buildings as they will be used by defenders. The Russians are also using cluster munitions into residential areas far behind the front lines. The obvious example is Kharkiv. So yes, they shouldn't be doing that but at the line of contact and a few hundred plus yards behind or any building they receive fire from is a legitimate target. And yes that sucks and will lead to civvy casualties. But that's the reality of war.
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Rossticus
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In reply to RebelE Infantry • 12:34p, 4/13/22
It doesn't help your case that there is tons of video of civilian infrastructure being leveled with no adjacent armor and no apparent Ukrainian troop emplacements. Tons of drone images of leveled residential areas with little to no destroyed Uke armor. Not saying that your point is wholly without merit as it absolutely applies in obvious circumstances, but there is enough information to indicate that this doesn't appear to have been the case a clear majority of the time.

And then you have the issue of medical facilities. It neither makes logical sense nor is there any evidence to suggest that all of the medical facilities destroyed by Russian attacks were converted from medical use to serve an alternative purpose. Access to medical care is paramount so the suggestion/concept of Ukrainians eliminating it to their own detriment on a widespread basis doesn't pass muster.
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