Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

nortex97 said:

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Is that Yamamoto?

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Yes

Again not discounting the first strike. The Israeli's is the most effective recent example. But my point is that Ukraine may not have the offensive weaponry/resources/plan to conduct a first strike that would cause sufficient damage to Russian forces in which to effectively disrupt their offensive mission.

Yamamoto is a great example. While the plan was a masterful, inventive and creative first strike plan, Nagumo's failure to launch a 3rd strike and cripple the fuel, sub and port facilities in Pearl and further disrupt the air operations on the islands meant that the Japanese at best got a tactical victory on that day. Had they launched the 3rd attack and destroyed the oil and fuel bunkers and port facilities the fleet may have been forced back to San Francisco or Australia, either of which would have pushed back US efforts in the Pacific by another 6-12 months. So if the Ukrainians attack first but fail to disrupt the Russian attack enough and push their timetable by a week or a month, what have they won? NATO is still not going to get involved, indeed would have a harder time with countries like Germany.

So I think this is a non-factor from at least my perspective. I wouldn't recommend it as a member of their general staff based on the publicly available order of battle and the other pieces of information that have been out there about Ukrainian tactics and training over the last several years.

nortex97 said:

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Is that Yamamoto?

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Yep. When we used to put our minds to it, we did that.

GAC06 said:

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Stranded, yes. Russia has ports on the Black Sea so not really cut off from supply.

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The Montrose Convention is applicable here

Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

America isn't a Democracy.

Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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So…Zelensky has been in office for the last two decades?

So we're cool with Crazy Vladimir gaining a massive strategic and economic advantage over Europe because we trust that once he does he's just going to…….. stop?

The guy who has "Return Russia to Soviet Era Greatness" at the top of his daily "to do" list for 20 years. The USSR, whose most fervent wish was to crush the USA to prove that Russia was greater?

Just making sure we're all on the same page and understand who and what it is we're considering allowing a head start to. Because it will come around to us, even if we try and ignore it.

Newly posted level 4 advisory for Moldova.

Quote:

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Do not travel to Moldova due to COVID-19, the unusual and concerning Russian military activity around Ukraine, and the unresolved conflict between the breakaway region of Transnistria and the central government; U.S. citizens in Transnistria should depart immediately via commercial or private means.

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https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/moldova-travel-advisory.html

Are you willing to give your life and money to defend Ukraine when even the Europeans won't? Why should other Americans be willing to?

I'm not saying this will be like WWII but that sounds like something we might have heard in the late 1930's

Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

What I said or what he said? Europeans were very aware of Nazis and Soviets in the 1930's, and were actively preparing to fight them. Nowadays we've enabled others to spend much less than they should for their own defense, and they aren't even worried themselves at this moment, so I repeat - why should we be?

File5 said:

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Are you willing to give your life and money to defend Ukraine when even the Europeans won't? Why should other Americans be willing to?

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It's not about Ukraine specifically. It's about the bigger picture and what Ukraine quite possibly could lead to which is more lives and more money than had we put our foot down at the start. History pretty much bears this out.

On top of that it sends a message to China that we're not effing around. If they see us cede Ukraine then they're going for Taiwan. And if they see us just stand back and watch, do you think Vlad and Xi are the types to just stop there? It will eventually fall in the middle of our lap unless we're ready to let each do whatever they want.

But maybe it would be better for the US to allow Russia and China much greater global power. No lives or money at stake there at all.

Europeans were desperate to avoid war. NATO even in its current state has the tools to oppose Russia.

GAC06 said:

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Europeans were desperate to avoid war. NATO even in its current state has the tools to oppose Russia.

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the tools in charge of nato, not so much

Sure, but they at least recognized the threat and were acting on it. NATO without the US is in a sad state right now from what I've read and seen (although only seen a small portion in person). Europeans right now don't seem to think Russia is a threat, otherwise they would be spending more on defense and trying to gain energy independence from Russia. That they don't or won't means something.

aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

If no one else around the world agrees with our worldview, is it still our prerogative to enforce our will in their country? You mentioned strategic utility, and Ukraine is much farther down the list than Taiwan. Taiwan is a must-keep, Ukraine is not. And we haven't even touched on if our CIC and forces are even up to the task. FJB can't even retreat from the Taliban effectively, what makes you think he can attack someone who knows what they're doing??

U.S. GOVERNMENT IS OFFERING A SOVEREIGN LOAN GUARANTEE TO UKRAINE OF UP TO $1 BILLION -BLINKEN

— FXHedge (@Fxhedgers) February 15, 2022

10% for the big guy

Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

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How drunk are you?

I don't think we should allocate human assets to Ukraine but everything else available to us via material support and our European installations should be on the table.

I agree that Taiwan is bigger and that much more should be diverted to the Pacific if China picks up steam. What I don't want to see is Russia gain enough traction to provide a strategic diversion for China should they choose to focus in on other former Soviet "properties".

aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

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How drunk are you?

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It's only 6:45am in Moscow right now… so I'm guessing he's drunk as ****

Ernest Tucker said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

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How drunk are you?

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It's only 6:45am in Moscow right now… so I'm guessing he's drunk as ****

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Probably just got done robbing a train car of Florida State students looking for minors in Russian.

aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

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How drunk are you?

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Sorry your dumb post threw me off. Ukrainie is an autocratic regime. Its two bad states having an issue like I said who cares...

Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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I see that you a). Watch Tucker Carlson. B). Fall victim to Russian propoganda very easily, and c). Are completely uninformed.

I just think the idea of a country who's leader is a commedian who won an election and was as far from the "ruling class" as possible not being a democracy is a hilarious assertion. And just to show that I know you get 100% of your opinions from Tucker Carlson, his "political rival" got arrested for corruption because he was Putin's lapdog and didn't support the Ukrainian people's wish - you know to become a western democracy distinctly different from Russia. Your boy Tucker is basically Russia Today.

I am the Machine!

Gordo14 said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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I see that you a). Watch Tucker Carlson. B). Fall victim to Russian propoganda very easily, and c). Are completely uninformed.

I just think the idea of a country who's leader is a commedian who won an election and was as far from the "ruling class" as possible not being a democracy is a hilarious assertion. And just to show that I know you get 100% of your opinions from Tucker Carlson, his "political rival" got arrested for corruption because he was Putin's lapdog and didn't support the Ukrainian people's wish - you know to become a western democracy distinctly different from Russia. Your boy Tucker is basically Russia Today.

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Attack the messenger and smear them ..This how i know you are wrong you didn't address anything disprove my point.

Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

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How drunk are you?

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Sorry your dumb post threw me off. Ukrainie is an autocratic regime. Its two bad states having an issue like I said who cares...

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Can you not spell or is it you can not type?

ETA: Just a bot.

Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

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How drunk are you?

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Sorry your dumb post threw me off. Ukrainie is an autocratic regime. Its two bad states having an issue like I said who cares...

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What about a recently elected comedian running the country screams "autocratic regime"? I'm sorry but this shows yoi have absolutely no idea what is happening.

Move along hawg, just another derail attempt.

aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Valtrex11 said:

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Ukraine is not a democracy they are pretty authoritarian wgas what Putin does to them..

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Que???

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yeah man the current regime runs the country like Putin does Russia.

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Then Russia would not feel the need to take any military action, no? You make no logical sense.

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this makes no sense. Putin cares about Ukrainine doing what he tells them to do ie no Nato nothing else.

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How drunk are you?

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Sorry your dumb post threw me off. Ukrainie is an autocratic regime. Its two bad states having an issue like I said who cares...

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Can you not spell or is it you can not type?

ETA: Just a bot.

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Two things can be true.