I Believe Roe and Casey Will Fall This SC Term

21,727 Views | 263 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by thisguy05
thisguy05
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I'm not a lawyer, so I won't provide any legal analysis of the Supreme Court's consideration of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, the Mississippi law banning abortion after 15 weeks gestation, though I'd love to hear it from others.

Instead, a game theory look at why I think that Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey will be overturned in June of 2022.

Ignoring for the time being that the U. S. Constitution, in full, as amended, is silent on abortion, Roe and Casey plainly forbid pre-viability abortion bans.

It takes 4 votes to grant cert, and the only question the Court is taking up is: Whether all pre-viability prohibitions on elective abortions are unconstitutional.

It seems to me that the Court has left itself only two choices: overturn Roe and Casey, or affirm them, practically making overturning impossible forever. I don't think there is a middle way.

If that is so, if it's a one-time, zero-sum game, I don't believe that (at least) 4 justices would've agreed to hear the case if there weren't 5 votes to overturn Roe and Casey. And if there are 5, then there are certainly 6. Even if he were otherwise opposed to overturning precedent, Roberts* will join in order to write the opinion, as it will be the biggest SC ruling in 50 years. That is the case no matter the decision. And Roberts knows he and his court will be defined forever by this decision (and obamacare; see below).

Given the narrow question, and the clearly anti-constitutional nature of this country's abortion jurisprudence, I wonder if there's not an outside chance of a unanimous ruling in favor of Mississippi's law.

*as an aside, Roberts will never be forgiven for obamacare, but nobody will remember last year's Russo case if he authors the opinion striking down Roe and Casey. It was surmised at the time that his going along with that ruling actually made it more likely that Roe and Casey would be overturned, as that case tinkered at the margins rather that directly attacking it. We'll see.
Rapier108
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No way with the Roberts Court. They are so terrified of taking any case which will cause controversy and risk the Democrats packing the Court.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
Clob94
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If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
Teslag
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Wanna packed court? Because that's how you get a packed court.
BMX Bandit
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it won't fall, but the court is likely to knock off big parts of it with Ginsberg gone

(they should have done this in June Medical Services)
thisguy05
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Rapier108 said:

No way with the Roberts Court. They are so terrified of taking any case which will cause controversy and risk the Democrats packing the Court.


But they've already taken the case. And it's unreasonable to assume that any of the 3 leftists were among the yes votes, as the 5th circuit already upheld the lower court's ruling against the state.
Comanche_Ag
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Rapier108 said:

No way with the Roberts Court. They are so terrified of taking any case which will cause controversy and risk the Democrats packing the Court.

I think saving millions of innocent children makes it a risk worth taking.
1939
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Overturning Roe would not make abortion illegal.
Irish 2.0
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Don't expect the court to take up any major abortion cases until after the midterms
TheEternalPessimist
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Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
If we have to have a civil war to stop the holocaust of abortion, then so be it. Why should we get to live in relative comfort while our society stands by and does nothing as image bearers of God are slaughtered right in front of us.

Suppose you are right though..... lets think the left's thinking on this..... Are they willing to fight a war, leading to the death of millions of Americans, to protect the ability of people to murder other people? Pure insanity.

Perhaps this is the judgement that awaits us for killing 60 million human beings through governmental policy.

Consider this verse:
---------------------
Revelation 6:10
They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
---------------------

The spilled blood of the innocent cries out, literally, for justice.
TheEternalPessimist
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1939 said:

Overturning Roe would not make abortion illegal.
Correct. It would be up to individual states to determine legality. Roughly 25 states have laws still on books, in general, outlawing it. Those laws would go back into effect.

The Federal Government can choose to allow or ban it on Federal territories and districts like D.C. and P.R.
BMX Bandit
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Irish 2.0 said:

Don't expect the court to take up any major abortion cases until after the midterms


Other than this one which they already did?
HumpitPuryear
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TheEternalPessimist said:

Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
If we have to have a civil war to stop the holocaust of abortion, then so be it. Why should we get to live in relative comfort while our society stands by and does nothing as image bearers of God are slaughtered right in front of us.

Suppose you are right though..... lets think the left's thinking on this..... Are they willing to fight a war, leading to the death of millions of Americans, to protect the ability of people to murder other people? Pure insanity.

Perhaps this is the judgement that awaits us for killing 60 million human beings through governmental policy.

Consider this verse:
---------------------
Revelation 6:10
They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
---------------------

The spilled blood of the innocent cries out, literally, for justice.
Let me state up front that I'm pro-life. I also reject the highlighted statement. I didn't kill anyone. Blood is on the hands of the woman who walked into the abortion clinic and the doctors that killed the innocent. I also don't believe in violence to stop violence or to force a moral position. That's Taliban behavior. God gave us free-will. A doctor taking the life of the unborn is no different than an addict shooting a convenience store clerk during a robbery. Both are murder. Pro-life advocates would make more of an impact by focusing energy and funding on the immorality and social conditions that lead to abortions. We need to put Planned Parenthood out of business by denying them customers.
halfastros81
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It would make it a state by state issue tho, would it not?
policywonk98
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With where I am on the abortion issue, the progressive world labels me a radical.

Even I wouldn't want them to overturn this while the Democrats hold the WH, House, and essentially the Senate.

If the news industry was actually operated like a real 1st Amendment protected free press observer and Big Tech was not dangerously in control of the modern public square, maybe just maybe I would be ok with it right now. But that's not the environment we find ourselves in. And an overturn of this magnitude would absolutely have the progressive controlled media, entertainment, WH, House, and Counter-Intellegence stoking the fires of civil unrest that could easily lead to some type of modern day civil war.

Although knowing that the 26th amendment passed making me less trusting of this process anymore. In an ideal world, where progressives and SCOTUS respected our Constitution, an overturn of this magnitude would lead to the creation of a constitutional amendment process. Allowing a supermajority of congress and the 50 states to finally decide what the Constitution will say or not say about females killing their children in this country.


Agsuffering@bulaw
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They will not overturn Roe in 1 decision. They rarely do anything that drastic. They will take 3-4 decisions to get there.

When Roe is finally overturned, they will be able to cite this case and several others. That is my guess.
dmart90
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No way. Period.

Sadly.
Clob94
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TheEternalPessimist said:

Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
If we have to have a civil war to stop the holocaust of abortion, then so be it. Why should we get to live in relative comfort while our society stands by and does nothing as image bearers of God are slaughtered right in front of us.

Suppose you are right though..... lets think the left's thinking on this..... Are they willing to fight a war, leading to the death of millions of Americans, to protect the ability of people to murder other people? Pure insanity.
Yes-- they are totally willing.
Perhaps this is the judgement that awaits us for killing 60 million human beings through governmental policy.
Us? I didn't have any abortions. Did you? If you didn't, you're not going to be judged for it.
Consider this verse:
---------------------
Revelation 6:10
They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
---------------------

The spilled blood of the innocent cries out, literally, for justice.
BMX Bandit
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way too early prediction:

7-2 (6-3 at worst) saying "no" on the question of "Whether all pre-viability prohibitions on elective abortions are unconstitutional."

then no clear ruling from concurrences what prohibitions are constitutional and which are not.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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In this political environment, anything could happen.

Anything.

The intangibles are too great to give any kind of solid legal analysis on any issue.

Thats my take.
TheEternalPessimist
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HumpitPuryear said:

TheEternalPessimist said:

Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
If we have to have a civil war to stop the holocaust of abortion, then so be it. Why should we get to live in relative comfort while our society stands by and does nothing as image bearers of God are slaughtered right in front of us.

Suppose you are right though..... lets think the left's thinking on this..... Are they willing to fight a war, leading to the death of millions of Americans, to protect the ability of people to murder other people? Pure insanity.

Perhaps this is the judgement that awaits us for killing 60 million human beings through governmental policy.

Consider this verse:
---------------------
Revelation 6:10
They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
---------------------

The spilled blood of the innocent cries out, literally, for justice.
Let me state up front that I'm pro-life. I also reject the highlighted statement. I didn't kill anyone. Blood is on the hands of the woman who walked into the abortion clinic and the doctors that killed the innocent. I also don't believe in violence to stop violence or to force a moral position. That's Taliban behavior. God gave us free-will. A doctor taking the life of the unborn is no different than an addict shooting a convenience store clerk during a robbery. Both are murder. Pro-life advocates would make more of an impact by focusing energy and funding on the immorality and social conditions that lead to abortions. We need to put Planned Parenthood out of business by denying them customers.
And God spared the few still moral and righteous Hebrews from the Babylonian captivity that enslaved and scattered them? It's quite clear that when God judges nations, the effects of that judgement fall on the guilty and innocent alike.

Romans 5:19, Genesis 18, and Numbers 16 all refer to this.

While I support "pro-life" initiatives, I would consider myself more of an abolitionist --- http://www.endboartionnow.com
TheEternalPessimist
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Clob94 said:

TheEternalPessimist said:

Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
If we have to have a civil war to stop the holocaust of abortion, then so be it. Why should we get to live in relative comfort while our society stands by and does nothing as image bearers of God are slaughtered right in front of us.

Suppose you are right though..... lets think the left's thinking on this..... Are they willing to fight a war, leading to the death of millions of Americans, to protect the ability of people to murder other people? Pure insanity.
Yes-- they are totally willing.
Perhaps this is the judgement that awaits us for killing 60 million human beings through governmental policy.
Us? I didn't have any abortions. Did you? If you didn't, you're not going to be judged for it.
Consider this verse:
---------------------
Revelation 6:10
They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
---------------------

The spilled blood of the innocent cries out, literally, for justice.

God collectively judges nations.

Again.... please read about Daniel pleading with God to spare the Hebrews from judgement. Daniel was an upstanding man and prophet that ALSO suffered much of the same fate as his fellow citizens during the Babylonian Captivity..... which the Bible says was a judgement from God against Israel for their grievous, societal wide sin.
GeorgiAg
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I always hated Con Law. I was a staunch conservative, straight ticket republican back in law school. The prof was always wanting to do all of this in-depth analysis of the various big-case opinions.

My view was (and for the most part, still is) this:

They start with a conclusion they want, then go through the mental gymnastics to get there. The opinions are very well-written and sometimes difficult to follow but that's all I think it is.
BMX Bandit
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Quote:

I always hated the Con
FIFY
thisguy05
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Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.


I disagree here, even considering the cultural forces arrayed against the right. There would be a lot bellyaching like from the right after the obamacare ruling. But life would go on.

As for court packing, there would definitely be a renewed push, but taking abortion off the table would drastically reduce the court's cultural power.
Oak Tree
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The SC is already packed with faux-Republicans judges that don't support the constitution. DC Republicans won't even try to stop the federal funding for abortions via Planned Parenthood. Conservatives don't expect Republicans to do anything...they are perfectly content with blaming Democrats instead.
Oak Tree
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Rapier108 said:

No way with the Roberts Court. They are so terrified of taking any case which will cause controversy and risk the Democrats packing the Court.


That is the perfect explanation. Republicans/conservatives wont fight for their beliefs because they are scared of controversy and the Democrats reaction. That's totally acceptable for conservatives...
TXAGFAN
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TheEternalPessimist said:

1939 said:

Overturning Roe would not make abortion illegal.
Correct. It would be up to individual states to determine legality. Roughly 25 states have laws still on books, in general, outlawing it. Those laws would go back into effect.

The Federal Government can choose to allow or ban it on Federal territories and districts like D.C. and P.R.
Thats one way to turn Texas blue.
Oak Tree
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Texas is already blue. Conservatives don't expect the SC or congressional Republicans to stop federal funding for abortions much less overturn RvW.
FratboyLegend
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Here's some game theory for you. If Roe v Wade is overturned, republicans will never win another election, ever.

Republicans like winning elections, therefore, Roe v. Wade will not be overturned.
#CertifiedSIP
Ag_of_08
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R v W being overturned would cause so many issues with so many cases, they're not going to agree to hear it.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, just not going to happen.
Carnwellag2
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Don't be so sureyou can take your same argument and make it for NOT overturning roe and Casey- for the SC to solidify Roe so it can never be overturned.


In addition..with the recent SC ruling basically saying eviction moratorium decrees were illegal and need to be based on a law based by Congress- the administration is testing the waters on ignoring the SC.

The cdc just mandated an illegal eviction moratorium basically ignoring the SC.

The left is making the SC irrelevant
Buck Turgidson
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Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
Dems are REALLY invested in murdering babies. Pure, Satanic evil.
Sully Dog
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Clob94 said:

If the court overturns Roe it will start a civil war. It would be the equivalent of the reaction by gun owners if there was a ban and door to door confiscation.
Who would fire the first shot?

People will be very angry, mostly because they don't understand that for most of America will still be able to kill their babies. Then they will virtue signal about how those poor black women in Alabama can't get an abortion and how it's just like Jim Crow 3.0
Deplorable Neanderthal Clinger
BMX Bandit
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"Start a civil war" is Internet speak for "make me post some angry stuff"
 
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