Charles Murray's Two Truths About Race

3,458 Views | 37 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by LOYAL AG
RebelE91
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AG
Anybody read it yet? The gist of it is there are two glaring truths are race that need to be considered in order to improve the lives of U.S. black and hispanic folks as groups: they consistently perform much worse on aptitude tests than whites and asians, and they consistently commit much more crime than whites or asians. Until this gets addressed, it will be difficult to close the racial gap between the groups. Nothing really earth-shattering here, but the fact that it's published is mildly surprising now.

https://lawliberty.org/book-review/telling-the-hardest-truths-about-race/

Quote:

Murray's first "truth" is that when whites, blacks, and Hispanics "take tests that are related to cognitive ability, their group results have different means," and that these tests are pretty good predictors of job performance, especially at the upper end of the pay scale. Since Murray is famous for making controversial arguments about IQ, genetics, and race, it is important to emphasize that most of his analysis is based on aptitude tests such as the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), the Armed Services Qualification Test, and graduate admissions exams rather than IQ tests. The racial gap measured by these tests has narrowed significantly since 1970 and the size of the gap changes as children get older, indicating that such "cognitive ability" is hardly determined by genetics alone.
Quote:

Murray's second "truth" is that African-American and Hispanic males commit violent crimes far more often than do white and Asian males. (I say "males" because they are responsible for the overwhelming majority of such crimes.) This is hardly a startling fact.
Quote:

Murray does not investigate the multiple, deep-seated causes of this difference. But he does review some of the consequences. Most obviously, the vast majority of law-abiding African-American and Hispanic residents of high crime neighborhoods are the principal victims of such violent crime. Even a casual reader of Chicago newspapers will appreciate the tragic consequences of this. Moreover, "disproportionate minority crime rates discourage developers from building office space in minority neighborhoods," and "raise the cost of doing business for retailers of all kinds." Middle class families of all races and ethnicities will avoid these areas. The result is that the residents of these high-crime neighborhoods will remain isolated, cut off from job and educational opportunities, and forced to pay more for almost everything they buy.
Quote:

One could trace all these problems back to slavery, segregation, and discrimination. But that will not make them disappear. Eliminating exam schools, covertly reserving slots at selective colleges for racial minorities, and instituting de facto hiring quotas for high skill jobs will only paper over the core problems rather than address them. Denying that crime is a problem in many poor neighborhoods leaves many decent people at the mercy of a violent few. The hard reality is that ignoring the "two truths" that Murray highlights will leave the most vulnerable people in our society worse off. Even those who dislike and distrust this particular messenger should heed his message.
AgFormerlyInIrving
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AG
Racist!!! /libs
DrEvazanPhD
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Wow, someone's white privilege is showing.
Serotonin
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AG
I have not read it and am not an expert on the matter but how does he deal with large IQ discrepancies between similar white groups (New England Puritan descendants vs Scots-Irish Appalachians) or the high performance of black immigrants like Nigerians?

It seems to me that culture drives a lot of this.
Maroon Dawn
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AG
Quote:

One could trace all these problems back to slavery, segregation, and discrimination. But that will not make them disappear.


Emphasized for truth

Add to it that no amount of government spending will stop it and in fact only makes it worse.

The problems only go away in these communities when the nuclear family is restored and the values of education, hard work and respect for others are instilled to children by both their parents and their community

But that doesn't give Dems more power so it won't happen
Paradise Ag
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AG

Mostly peaceful looting and paying people to not work is the Progressive solution to both these "problems".
Year of the Germaphobe
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AG
Maroon Dawn said:

Quote:

One could trace all these problems back to slavery, segregation, and discrimination. But that will not make them disappear.


Emphasized for truth

Add to it that no amount of government spending will stop it and in fact only makes it worse.

The problems only go away in these communities when the nuclear family is restored and the values of education, hard work and respect for others are instilled to children by both their parents and their community

But that doesn't give Dems more power so it won't happen

samurai_science
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Ignoring genetics and how much of a role it actually plays in relation to IQ for large racial groups is ignoring truth/science.
gbaby23
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AG
Serotonin said:

I have not read it and am not an expert on the matter but how does he deal with large IQ discrepancies between similar white groups (New England Puritan descendants vs Scots-Irish Appalachians) or the high performance of black immigrants like Nigerians?

It seems to me that culture drives a lot of this.
Just like most immigrants groups that do not have the luxury of easily entering America illegally because of their proximity, only the best are able to immigrate legally.

We all fall somewhere on a bell curve for intelligence, and the curves for different racial groups are varied.
YouBet
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AG
The disparity issue with testing is being resolved by simply halting the practice. Can't have disparities if you don't know about it. Aptitude tests will be discontinued across most industries within a few years. Academia already headed that way.

Crime realities are being resolved through discontinuing bail, refusing to prosecute lower level crimes, and mass freeing of existing criminals.

Instead of addressing systemic cultural problems with these communities, the left is simply adjusting societal rules to align to inferior cultural practices.
VarkAg77
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AG
Maroon Dawn said:

Quote:

One could trace all these problems back to slavery, segregation, and discrimination. But that will not make them disappear.


Emphasized for truth





I don't know that these are actually "truths". Not arguing with YOUR points, per se, but in the 1920's thru the 1960's (for the most part), the marriage rates, out of wedlock rates, literacy rates, and other measurements of blacks were on par, or in some cases, better than whites.

Something happened AFTER the (near) end of Jim Crow that threw blacks into a tailspin. That cannot be blamed on a "legacy of slavery".
titan
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S

That's something was LBJ's disastrous "Great Society" and the plantation state created, followed by Nixon's asinine War on Drugs.

FrioAg 00:
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
fasthorse05
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titan said:


That's something was LBJ's disastrous "Great Society" and the plantation state created, followed by Nixon's asinine War on Drugs.


I'll never forget the quote that Medicare/Medicaid "would NEVER rise above $12 billion/year".

Can't remember who made the quote, but it's an all-timer, seeing as how they spend that each day.
jnathan10
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AG
Their success also helps to debunk cries of "systemic racism". They should be suffering and failing from it just like their neighbors but miraculously, aren't.
Maroon Dawn
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AG
VarkAg77 said:

Maroon Dawn said:

Quote:

One could trace all these problems back to slavery, segregation, and discrimination. But that will not make them disappear.


Emphasized for truth





I don't know that these are actually "truths". Not arguing with YOUR points, per se, but in the 1920's thru the 1960's (for the most part), the marriage rates, out of wedlock rates, literacy rates, and other measurements of blacks were on par, or in some cases, better than whites.

Something happened AFTER the (near) end of Jim Crow that threw blacks into a tailspin. That cannot be blamed on a "legacy of slavery".


Not saying it's the truth, saying that even if you somehow could trace all these problems to past injustices, that in of itself won't ever solve a single one of these problems

In fact that's what Dems do: put all their energy into playing the blame game and none into actually fixing any of it because fixing it loses them powe
Deplorable
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samurai_texan said:

Ignoring genetics and how much of a role it actually plays in relation to IQ for large racial groups is ignoring truth/science.


Education plays a bigger role, culture plays the biggest.

Well educated folks from 2-parent homes of any race have higher iq scores and are generally more successful.
BusterAg
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AG
Serotonin said:

I have not read it and am not an expert on the matter but how does he deal with large IQ discrepancies between similar white groups (New England Puritan descendants vs Scots-Irish Appalachians) or the high performance of black immigrants like Nigerians?

It seems to me that culture drives a lot of this.
I firmly believe that IQ is highly hereditary, and not necessarily associated with race. You may have a larger percentage of lower IQ individuals in any demographic, but there are many, many sub-populations that just have higher IQ.

A disproportionate number of the worlds best mathematicians are Eastern Europeans, for example. A larger segment of the Nigerian population seems to perform well on IQ. Jews have a significant proportion of high IQ individuals.

It is an inconvenient fact, but the data bears it out.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
thirdcoast
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AG
If every liberal in this country took 25 min to watch this trump hating progressive destroy the BS narrative, our country would truly progress.

We should ALL want to live in a world where race doesn't matter and is seen like hair color. This is the litmus test for separating mentally ill leftists from open minded liberals.

gbaby23
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AG
OG UNF said:

samurai_texan said:

Ignoring genetics and how much of a role it actually plays in relation to IQ for large racial groups is ignoring truth/science.


Education plays a bigger role, culture plays the biggest.

Well educated folks from 2-parent homes of any race have higher iq scores and are generally more successful.
G Martin 87
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AG
Serotonin said:

I have not read it and am not an expert on the matter but how does he deal with large IQ discrepancies between similar white groups (New England Puritan descendants vs Scots-Irish Appalachians) or the high performance of black immigrants like Nigerians?

It seems to me that culture drives a lot of this.
Thomas Sowell has written extensively on the impact of the "redneck culture" that can be found around the world. It is neither exclusively white nor exclusively Southern.
Serotonin
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AG
Yeah, no doubt.

My question is this: Puritans and their descendants who came from southern and eastern England have high IQs. They founded places like Harvard and Yale and have had a huge impact in theology, the sciences, literature, etc.

The Scots-Irish from the Scotland/England border and Northern Ireland have had a huge impact on American culture through music, military, popular religion, sports, etc but have had much lower intellectual output.

My point is that genetically these two groups are almost identical (white British immigrants) yet they have vastly different cultures which have led to vastly different outcomes.
93MarineHorn
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Quote:

I have not read it and am not an expert on the matter but how does he deal with large IQ discrepancies between similar white groups (New England Puritan descendants vs Scots-Irish Appalachians) or the high performance of black immigrants like Nigerians?
I don't know if the term I'm looking for is "selection bias", but these two groups came from very different communities. Puritans were well educated people seeking freedom of religion. The Scots-Irish were the poorer folks looking to escape famine and poverty. I say that as someone with Scottish ancestors.

It makes sense that their descendants would not share IQ scores.
Gator92
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AG
VarkAg77 said:

Maroon Dawn said:

Quote:

One could trace all these problems back to slavery, segregation, and discrimination. But that will not make them disappear.


Emphasized for truth





I don't know that these are actually "truths". Not arguing with YOUR points, per se, but in the 1920's thru the 1960's (for the most part), the marriage rates, out of wedlock rates, literacy rates, and other measurements of blacks were on par, or in some cases, better than whites.

Something happened AFTER the (near) end of Jim Crow that threw blacks into a tailspin. That cannot be blamed on a "legacy of slavery".
Desegregation and forced busing was possibly the worst public policy decision ever...
samurai_science
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Gator92
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AG
93MarineHorn said:

Quote:

I have not read it and am not an expert on the matter but how does he deal with large IQ discrepancies between similar white groups (New England Puritan descendants vs Scots-Irish Appalachians) or the high performance of black immigrants like Nigerians?
I don't know if the term I'm looking for is "selection bias", but these two groups came from very different communities. Puritans were well educated people seeking freedom of religion. The Scots-Irish were the poorer folks looking to escape famine and poverty. I say that as someone with Scottish ancestors.

It makes sense that their descendants would not share IQ scores.
Scotch Irish Presbyterians fled the running wars with Irish Catholics. Ulster, now Northern Ireland, became a wealthy place w/ a textile industry that rivaled England. Most were economic migrants that had become accustomed to self-determination. If not for the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians, our constitutional republic would not exist.
Cassius
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Im shocked this thread had not been nuked.

Mr Normal Curve was declared a racist long ago.

Carry on. Thread is doomed.
93MarineHorn
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Quote:

Scotch Irish Presbyterians fled the running wars with Irish Catholics. Ulster, now Northern Ireland, became a wealthy place w/ a textile industry that rivaled England. Most were economic migrants that had become accustomed to self-determination. If not for the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians, our constitutional republic would not exist.
Perhaps there's another explanation for why their descendants don't do as well on IQ tests, supposedly.
Cassius
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Serotonin said:

I have not read it and am not an expert on the matter but how does he deal with large IQ discrepancies between similar white groups (New England Puritan descendants vs Scots-Irish Appalachians) or the high performance of black immigrants like Nigerians?

It seems to me that culture drives a lot of this.


You know what an average is?

Also, can you please explain how culture is created?
BusterAg
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AG
Serotonin said:

Yeah, no doubt.

My question is this: Puritans and their descendants who came from southern and eastern England have high IQs. They founded places like Harvard and Yale and have had a huge impact in theology, the sciences, literature, etc.

The Scots-Irish from the Scotland/England border and Northern Ireland have had a huge impact on American culture through music, military, popular religion, sports, etc but have had much lower intellectual output.

My point is that genetically these two groups are almost identical (white British immigrants) yet they have vastly different cultures which have led to vastly different outcomes.
While this is true, (discussed in Conflict of Visions, am I right?), IQ variation within races can be significantly explained through genetics. There are some collections of Caucasians that are just smarter than others. There are some collections of blacks that are just smarter than others.

And, while high IQ can be a major factor in economic outcome, it is far from sufficient to explain. Many other hereditary and cultural traits obviously contribute. You can be brilliant, but have really strong temporal discounting, and you are not likely to succeed. You can be pretty average IQ with less temporal discounting, and slowly save your way into being a millionaire.

But, the truth is, IQ is highly hereditable.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
Party of 1
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Please no one notice the similarities between South African blacks and American blacks rioting and looting in the streets over nonsense, and just call it culture; even though the two have wildly different cultures.
sleepybeagle
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AG
Defining someone's worth by their IQ is equivalent to defining someone's worth by the color of their skin. These are things you are born with and out of your control.

Remember the roots of Fascism is Darwinism which defines might and power as "good and right". If you believe someone who isn't as smart/strong/athletic/talented/rich/beautiful/etc as being beneath you - then you need to rethink your values.

Of course a high IQ or beauty, talent, etc.. are all great things to have, they are not the only things that determines ones success or failure. Obviously not everyone is dealt an equal hand - for example Texags moderators : ) but in the U.S. all hands can be winners if played correctly.

Successful life strategy:
Go to school
Get a good job
Work hard
Get married
Then have kids

Put that in reverse order and we have the mess we are in now in many communities.
gbaby23
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AG
The lower the average IQ of a society, the worse off it is. It is foolish to push policy or ideology that will decrease the overall IQ just because it makes you feel better on the inside.
BusterAg
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AG
sleepybeagle said:

Defining someone's worth by their IQ is equivalent to defining someone's worth by the color of their skin. These are things you are born with and out of your control.

Remember the roots of Fascism is Darwinism which defines might and power as "good and right". If you believe someone who isn't as smart/strong/athletic/talented/rich/beautiful/etc as being beneath you - then you need to rethink your values.

Of course a high IQ or beauty, talent, etc.. are all great things to have, they are not the only things that determines ones success or failure. Obviously not everyone is dealt an equal hand - for example Texags moderators : ) but in the U.S. all hands can be winners if played correctly.

Successful life strategy:
Go to school
Get a good job
Work hard
Get married
Then have kids

Put that in reverse order and we have the mess we are in now in many communities.

You forgot the step where you should avoid getting an expensive but worthless liberal arts degree.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
VarkAg77
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AG
Maroon Dawn said:

VarkAg77 said:

Maroon Dawn said:

Quote:

One could trace all these problems back to slavery, segregation, and discrimination. But that will not make them disappear.


Emphasized for truth





I don't know that these are actually "truths". Not arguing with YOUR points, per se, but in the 1920's thru the 1960's (for the most part), the marriage rates, out of wedlock rates, literacy rates, and other measurements of blacks were on par, or in some cases, better than whites.

Something happened AFTER the (near) end of Jim Crow that threw blacks into a tailspin. That cannot be blamed on a "legacy of slavery".


Not saying it's the truth, saying that even if you somehow could trace all these problems to past injustices, that in of itself won't ever solve a single one of these problems

In fact that's what Dems do: put all their energy into playing the blame game and none into actually fixing any of it because fixing it loses them powe


Totally agree!
MaxPower
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I haven't read the book but have listened to several interviews with Murray on it. His point was not to conclude on WHY there are differences in IQ and crime rate. His point was simply to point out that as of today they exist and provide a much more rational framework for understanding racial inequality in income, executive roles, etc than mythical "systemic racism". When pushed on it, he thought environmental factors were likely a big reason (really culture as the primary reason).

Of course that brings the main question to the forefront. The progressives don't like the idea of the cause being genetics but the biggest environmental cause is undoubtedly cultural. Well what Dem is out there calling out black culture as the reason for lack of success? None. Even if they were to admit it's at least a major factor then what do you do? Should the government be telling a subculture it's "bad" and take authoritarian measures to change it? Do black people value their sub-culture more or financial success within the broader culture? Regardless it seems odd to both admit that there is a sub-culture that should be valued for its diversity while simultaneously expecting that culture to have the exact same outcomes as others. It's like valuing the diversity of having both a pickup truck and a corvette while being bewildered when you can't haul lumber in the corvette or run a 10 second quarter mile in the truck.
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