I'm hearing and reading so many disparate numbers of # dead, # of homes and businesses burned, etc.

We have historians on this board, can one of you direct me to a credible source on what really happened?

TIA.

not a historian, but OkSt keeps a decent archive of primary sources on the events of 1921:

https://info.library.okstate.edu/oklahoma/racemassacre

I heard of it decades ago but it does seem to be growing in some of it's stats. But it was a really horrible situation.

WestTexasAg said:

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Really bizarre that most of us had never heard of this before. I have been reading up on it to learn. Lots of differing info.

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Not really that bizarre. It is usually in the same glancing mention hear about the Tuskegee experiments. When touching on the 20s very briefly in U.S. history. You heard about it now and then -- usually when Jim Crow was covered as part of larger picture. That decade in general is very neglected.

I remember a documentary or two mentioning it.

You heard about it -- at least last century. I don't know what schools are saying now. Its one of those isolated moments that you just get glimpses of very in passing over the years if not studying the timelines in detail.

As for the story, don't see any reason Old McDonald's link to their archives would lead you astray. Primary sources beats activist articles every time. If want to avoid present day editorializing you could look for an account written in the 90's maybe.

AggiePetro07 said:

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Both sides showed their ass.

A group of armed black men showed up at the jail to prevent a rumored lynching of a young black man arrested and accused of pursuing a young white woman. A white mob showed up and in the course of the sherifs trying to calm things down, a firefight started and 10 whites were killed along with 2 black men.

Then, a white mob armed up and went through the black portion of the city taking revenge, burning and looting and destroying stuff.

By the time it was over the most prosperous black city in America was destroyed and 25-30 black people were dead (along with 13 white people).

The local law enforcement and city officials conspired to arm the white mob and prevent rebuilding efforts.

Pretty ****ty all around.

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That matches the impression received without having delved into it in detail. These obscure ethnic clash events when they happen tend to be a case of "both sides showed their ass."

Our press is truly disgusting. The way to look at it is they are having to go back to 1921 to hype something. No credit for the American system dissuading such from happening most of the time. They are glass empty people incarnate, if even that.

For example, in Alexandria, ethnic riots under the Romans that they had to put down were almost seasonal, not a century apart. But America gets no credit for their rarity.

Incidentally, `masascre' is probably valid to refer to the revenge part of the riot where the black sector was invaded and burned, and it seems a number of the deaths happened then.

But you can always find horrific things --- look at the Haiti one in the 19th C.

What makes our press so contemptible is they keep willing bad to happen now, to repeat, but not to them.

Wildmen03 said:

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Gap said:

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Give credit to the HBO series Watchmen for bringing attention to this when it aired in October 2019.

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That's how I first heard of it and I've lived in Tulsa.

I feel like I've heard it referenced more in the past 2 years than it has probably been mentioned since 1921.

It's pretty bad when you run out of modern racism and have to dredge up the past to fill the quota.

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The democrat political machine said wow, there is something in pop culture now that we can but have yet to take advantage of.

So, you get a documentary on CNN / HBO with basketballer LeBron James being listed as an executive producer and another on the History Channel with basketballer Russell Westbrook being listed as an executive producer. I don't believe the PBS one had a NBA basketball executive producer.

And then next Joe Biden standing on a stage to associate with the story and honor the victims (all without blinking an eye or being asked about his friendship and mentoring of KKK member Robert Byrd).

A truly, sad and terrible story, but I really get tired of and am disgusted by current day politicians standing on the grave of dead people for their selfish benefit.

Wildmen03 said:

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Gap said:

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Give credit to the HBO series Watchmen for bringing attention to this when it aired in October 2019.

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That's how I first heard of it and I've lived in Tulsa.

I feel like I've heard it referenced more in the past 2 years than it has probably been mentioned since 1921.

It's pretty bad when you run out of modern racism and have to dredge up the past to fill the quota.

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Speaking of that, I realized their bad faith last year when they started bringing it up and the `anniversary' as they flapped jaws about Floyd and Minneapolis. It was a full year before the real anniversary and their pandering was obvious. The board had a thread on it.

Before that though, you heard it now and then in a more genuine concerned and reflection moment of how such tensions can be stoked and erupt. It used to be seen more in its context. And again, often against the backdrop of Tuskegee attitude and Sanger at the same time.

Keep in mind that it was the Democrats that ran politics there, and in fact the socialists too were on the ascendency. Their militant wing (the KKK) decided to get violent.

Pretty much all you need to know. But, it's also the case that it was brought on when democrats deputized a bunch of people in response to a mob of blacks getting into a fight/shoot out outside of a jail;

Quote:

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Upon hearing reports that a mob of hundreds of White men had gathered around the jail where Rowland was being kept, a group of 75 Black men, some of whom were armed, arrived at the jail in order to ensure that Rowland would not be lynched. The sheriff persuaded the group to leave the jail, assuring them that he had the situation under control. A shot was fired, and then, according to the reports of the sheriff, "all hell broke loose." At the end of the firefight, 12 people were killed: 10 White and 2 Black. As news of these deaths spread throughout the city, mob violence exploded.

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It was after this that the famous 'race riot' occurred (which was arguably more economically driven). Note that it was led by a famous Democrat/founder of Tulsa, who killed himself a few years later.

Its a part of our history and not a pretty one. But I have a suspicion that its getting so much play because its a "closer in" target for reparations discussions than Civil War era slavery and gives Dems another data point to hammer their white supremacy narrative. Dems and media will use it, distort it, sensationalize it, blow it out of proportion to gaslight. Biden did a lot of gaslighting today using the pulpit to declare white supremacy a bigger danger than ISIS or Al Qaeda.

Quote:

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Keep in mind that it was the Democrats that ran politics there, and in fact the socialists too were on the ascendency. Their militant wing (the KKK) decided to get violent.

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That's true. In fact in the same time frame the socialist-Marxists take over Mexico. It is what leads to the Cristiada.

And this general leftward push does play its role in creating the Fascist counter rise in Europe yes.

Dude on the NBC evening news just told me a bunch of "white supremacists" killed up to 300 blacks.

zoneag said:

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The confirmed death toll is something like 36. Since the push for reparations of survivors began now they claim over 300 despite many attempts to find mass graves that haven't been discovered. Also lots of outrageous claims such as planes dropping incendiary devices and strafing the crowds which is highly implausible in 1921.

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I had to listen to that crap all day from someone at work.

Ag87H2O said:

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AggiePetro07 said:

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Both sides showed their ass.

A group of armed black men showed up at the jail to prevent a rumored lynching of a young black man arrested and accused of pursuing a young white woman. A white mob showed up and in the course of the sherifs trying to calm things down, a firefight started and 10 whites were killed along with 2 black men.

Then, a white mob armed up and went through the black portion of the city taking revenge, burning and looting and destroying stuff.

By the time it was over the most prosperous black city in America was destroyed and 25-30 black people were dead (along with 13 white people).

The local law enforcement and city officials conspired to arm the white mob and prevent rebuilding efforts.

Pretty ****ty all around.

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Heard a radio report this morning that said hundreds of black died but then looked it up and it is exactly as you have written above. While still horrendous, it's a big difference.

Interesting to note that the media started by calling it the Tulsa race riots and now many outlets are calling it the Tulsa race massacre.

The race baiting Democrats love to rip open old wounds and dump salt in them. Inflame and divide.

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Another example of how fascists would not even have to lie today --- `lying press' is what they called the media. Back then more unfairly to some degree; now, totally warranted.

Yep. Nail meet head. It was a bad deal and likely a product of its time. History must be read with an eye toward context. This was a world few of us would recognize and it ain't the world we live in today.

Gap said:

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Give credit to the HBO series Watchmen for bringing attention to this when it aired in October 2019.

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We will curse the woke version of that show before it's all said and done. Nothing good will come from this. Sounds like it's already hit Ferguson mythological levels of fake news and will be used to further divide people who had nothing to do with it.

Some commission set up by the State was able to confirm a relatively low number of dead (40 or so?), but estimated between 75-300. Every time I hear it mentioned on media the number is 300. Apparently you are not allowed to question that number.

aggiehawg said:

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I'm hearing and reading so many disparate numbers of # dead, # of homes and businesses burned, etc.

We have historians on this board, can one of you direct me to a credible source on what really happened?

TIA.

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Whatever the details were, I imagine it was still really ****ed up.

titan said:

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Quote:

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Keep in mind that it was the Democrats that ran politics there, and in fact the socialists too were on the ascendency. Their militant wing (the KKK) decided to get violent.

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That's true. In fact in the same time frame the socialist-Marxists take over Mexico. It is what leads to the Cristiada.

And this general leftward push does play its role in creating the Fascist counter rise in Europe yes.

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As in Portland today, it was antifa-minded white Democrat voters (not sure of their gender, but probably male) who got upset at the police, and proceeded to burn a neighborhood down in 'mostly peaceful' protests in a predominantly black area, then went home, and were not charged with any crimes, largely. Yes, and today, as then antifa is having an impact on the left in Europe as well.

Quote:

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Dems and media will use it, distort it, sensationalize it, blow it out of proportion to gaslight. Biden did a lot of gaslighting today using the pulpit to declare white supremacy a bigger danger than ISIS or Al Qaeda.

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His former boss enabled ISIS, possibly more. And his party dwarfs either one of those as any threat.

The head of Al Qaeda probably has more credible things to say then him. Know a fair number of vets who have stopped saluting. Now its becoming clear why.

The Tulsa riot was horrible and certainly not widely known but 157 years ago today a different type massacre happed at Cold Harbor that killed or wounded 12,000 soldiers of the Army of the Potomac many of whom where at least in part fighting to end slavery. I bet fewer Americans could tell you about that than the Tulsa massacre. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from both situations.

TxTarpon said:

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Was it bad?
Yeah.
Was Black Wall Street huge and rich?
Come on man, it was TULSA.
Not exactly a big metropolis.

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Tulsa in the 1920s was badass. Waite Phillips headquartered Phillips Petroleum there prior to the massacre. The oil reserves there caused a rush around the start of the last century and there were over 120,000 people living there. So, maybe not huge if you look around today, but for a brand new state (1907), pretty good sized. and compared similar to Houston in population during that time period. It had everything: music, art and architecture, oil money, and was thriving.

In no small way, that destruction and the combined effects of the ensuing economic depression nationwide blighted many parts of Tulsa for years afterward. No good comes from hate, anger, and jealousy.

As far as the fatality numbers--I've heard both the "official" and the "unofficial" and we'll likely never know because there are plenty of old money that don't want to keep bringing up the past, there's been quite a bit of time devoted with not much evidence to show for it, and many families fled the area making record-keeping sketchy.