1939 said:

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Buck Turgidson said:

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akm91 said:

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Quote:

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If public school parents don't want home schooled kids getting access to any extracurricular activities, then I'm sure they agree that the district needs to stop taxing those families.

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Then those public school parents better damn well be for vouchers because those homeschool kids and private school kids are funding the public school students. Can't have it both ways.

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Exactly. One alternative, in lieu of vouchers, is to just give a credit against ISD property taxes while your kids are either being home schooled or are in private school. Its a max of 12 years (unless you have multiple kids with staggered ages), then you go back to paying those ISD taxes like normal.

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Umm ok I don't have kids does that mean I get a credit too?
(honestly, you should)

I think alot the people against this are against it because homeschool parents have such a holier than thou attitude and think their little genius is too good for public school but still want to take advantage of the parts they like.
("the parts we pay for", yes)

Would this also mean the homeschoolers get to compete in UIL academics?
(not sure whether the law allows it, but why shouldn't it?)

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TexasAggie_02 said:

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Cassius said:

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cevans_40 said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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But if a parent signs off they are passing is that ok?

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If you want a less educated public, this is how you get it.

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We already have a less educated public. A HS diploma is a damn joke.

And surely you don't believe no pass no play isn't a complete fraud? Social advancement is the norm.

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Vince Young is a perfect example of what a joke high school is.

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No more than Adam Lanza is a perfect example of what joke homeschool is.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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Districts do not have to allow homeschooler participation, which is why I say they have no incentive. Currently, homeschoolers can participate by enrolling and when they enroll the district receives money.

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To your point, the final version of the bill does not appear to impose a requirement on the school to allow non-enrolled students to participate, but says they "may" allow them and that the UIL may NOT prohibit this.

If schools largely choose not to allow these people to participate, I'd expect School Choice in future sessions. I see this as a the rope with which public schools will hang themselves with respect to School Choice.

1939 said:

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Buck Turgidson said:

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akm91 said:

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Quote:

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If public school parents don't want home schooled kids getting access to any extracurricular activities, then I'm sure they agree that the district needs to stop taxing those families.

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Then those public school parents better damn well be for vouchers because those homeschool kids and private school kids are funding the public school students. Can't have it both ways.

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Exactly. One alternative, in lieu of vouchers, is to just give a credit against ISD property taxes while your kids are either being home schooled or are in private school. Its a max of 12 years (unless you have multiple kids with staggered ages), then you go back to paying those ISD taxes like normal.

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Umm ok I don't have kids does that mean I get a credit too?

I think alot the people against this are against it because homeschool parents have such a holier than thou attitude and think their little genius is too good for public school but still want to take advantage of the parts they like.

Would this also mean the homeschoolers get to compete in UIL academics?

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This.

MW13 said:

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TexasAggie_02 said:

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Cassius said:

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cevans_40 said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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But if a parent signs off they are passing is that ok?

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If you want a less educated public, this is how you get it.

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We already have a less educated public. A HS diploma is a damn joke.

And surely you don't believe no pass no play isn't a complete fraud? Social advancement is the norm.

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Vince Young is a perfect example of what a joke high school is.

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No more than Adam Lanza is a perfect example of what joke homeschool is.

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Yeah, that's not a cherry-picked anecdote / whataboutism...

Quote:

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As a child, Adam attended Sandy Hook Elementary himself. After continuing in the Newton public school system for a few years, Nancy "pulled her son out of school to home-school him" by 4th or 5th grade. (Adam began exhibiting disturbing thoughts of violence in the 5th grade.) But then he was put back into the Newton school district by middle school. He spent part of 7th and 8th grade in a private school, St. Rose of Lima School.

While in the public school system, Adam was assigned a psychologist and "counselors, teachers and security officers were also keeping an eye on him." Adam was having problems at school; Nancy described her son to friends as "brilliant, but disabled."

Adam's disabilities had been identified early on. By age 6, Adam was diagnosed with sensory integration disorder; by middle school, he was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Despite these diagnoses, however, Nancy allegedly was angry at Adam's school for "failing her son" and "refused to deal with them anymore" after she "pleaded for better services" for him.

...

The former director of security at Newton School District said that, while Adam was in public school in 2007, Adam was "completely the opposite" of a killer; in fact, the school was "worried about him being the victim or that he could hurt himself." But part way through his sophomore year in high school, his mother pulled him out a second time to homeschool him because "she was unhappy with the school district's plans for her son." From 8th grade on, his mother taught him humanities and his father taught him sciences. Nancy did, however, coordinate "the home curriculum with Newtown High School to insure that Adam could graduate rather than simply get a G.E.D."

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Tanya 93 said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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But they are school age not some random person on the street. If their parents want to home school them and then take advantage of the school athletics in the district they are assigned I have no problem with that.

Also AAU costs money and so do some home school teams.

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So does uil events

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Paid for by ALL taxpayers !

BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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Tanya 93 said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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But they are school age not some random person on the street. If their parents want to home school them and then take advantage of the school athletics in the district they are assigned I have no problem with that.

Also AAU costs money and so do some home school teams.

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So does uil events

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Paid for by ALL taxpayers !

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Why do football teams sell tickets if everything is paid for by taxpayers?

Burdizzo said:

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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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Tanya 93 said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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But they are school age not some random person on the street. If their parents want to home school them and then take advantage of the school athletics in the district they are assigned I have no problem with that.

Also AAU costs money and so do some home school teams.

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So does uil events

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Paid for by ALL taxpayers !

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Why do football teams sell tickets if everything is paid for by taxpayers?

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Lol. You think ticket sells even scratch the surface of the revenue required for athletics budgets. That's funny.

Catag94 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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Tanya 93 said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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But they are school age not some random person on the street. If their parents want to home school them and then take advantage of the school athletics in the district they are assigned I have no problem with that.

Also AAU costs money and so do some home school teams.

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So does uil events

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Paid for by ALL taxpayers !

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Why do football teams sell tickets if everything is paid for by taxpayers?

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Lol. You think ticket sells even scratch the surface of the revenue required for athletics budgets. That's funny.

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Because booster clubs don't cover everything?

Burdizzo said:

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Catag94 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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Tanya 93 said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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But they are school age not some random person on the street. If their parents want to home school them and then take advantage of the school athletics in the district they are assigned I have no problem with that.

Also AAU costs money and so do some home school teams.

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So does uil events

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Paid for by ALL taxpayers !

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Why do football teams sell tickets if everything is paid for by taxpayers?

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Lol. You think ticket sells even scratch the surface of the revenue required for athletics budgets. That's funny.

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Because booster clubs don't cover everything?

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Uhh no.

Taxpayers sure are stupid.

So, whether you're a HSer trying to protect your freedoms, a PSer who doesn't think it's fair or want to see extra burden on the system, or a district who doesn't want to give extras away for free and take on an essentially unfunded mandate...who does that leave that is supportive of this?

To the HSers who think this is going to open doors, I hope you've already had a chat with your district and they've committed out of the kindness of their hearts. I'm not being snarky, I truly mean that. I think it's going to require some effort on the parent's part to see that their child receives the desired opportunity.

As for this leading to school choice...that's an interesting connection.

Does someone want to give the 5 bullet point version of School Choice?

AndesAg92 said:

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Does someone want to give the 5 bullet point version of School Choice?

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Quote:

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The Problem
-Parents are not able to give their children the educational opportunities they desire.
-Parents don't have ownership over their tax dollars being used for educational funding.
-Some solutions lead to greater problems since they require tax money to be given to the government from some and then distributed to others an unfair system that creates unwanted government strings.

The Solution
-Distribute educational funds in a manner that they follow the student to any school, whether public, private, charter, or home school through means of tax exemptions and/or credits.

Messaging:
-Maintaining parents' freedom of choice in educating their children is of utmost importance.
-Money for school choice should follow the student and not be handled by or filtered through the government.
-Tax exemptions and/or credits provide the best way to distribute funds since they maintain a free enterprise society unencumbered by government interference or subsidies.

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SpreadsheetAg said:

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AndesAg92 said:

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Does someone want to give the 5 bullet point version of School Choice?

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Quote:

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The Problem
-Parents are not able to give their children the educational opportunities they desire.
-Parents don't have ownership over their tax dollars being used for educational funding.
-Some solutions lead to greater problems since they require tax money to be given to the government from some and then distributed to others an unfair system that creates unwanted government strings.

The Solution
-Distribute educational funds in a manner that they follow the student to any school, whether public, private, charter, or home school through means of tax exemptions and/or credits.

Messaging:
-Maintaining parents' freedom of choice in educating their children is of utmost importance.
-Money for school choice should follow the student and not be handled by or filtered through the government.
-Tax exemptions and/or credits provide the best way to distribute funds since they maintain a free enterprise society unencumbered by government interference or subsidies.

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Thank you.

So what happens to the low income areas/schools? Do they get further left behind?

AndesAg92 said:

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SpreadsheetAg said:

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AndesAg92 said:

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Does someone want to give the 5 bullet point version of School Choice?

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Quote:

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The Problem
-Parents are not able to give their children the educational opportunities they desire.
-Parents don't have ownership over their tax dollars being used for educational funding.
-Some solutions lead to greater problems since they require tax money to be given to the government from some and then distributed to others an unfair system that creates unwanted government strings.

The Solution
-Distribute educational funds in a manner that they follow the student to any school, whether public, private, charter, or home school through means of tax exemptions and/or credits.

Messaging:
-Maintaining parents' freedom of choice in educating their children is of utmost importance.
-Money for school choice should follow the student and not be handled by or filtered through the government.
-Tax exemptions and/or credits provide the best way to distribute funds since they maintain a free enterprise society unencumbered by government interference or subsidies.

---

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Thank you.

So what happens to the low income areas/schools? Do they get further left behind?

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Don't they currently get funding per capita?

Get better or go away? Get new leadership that will actually educate and not drive parents away?

People are already moving out of districts just to get away from bad schools. This way at least people who can't afford to move light actually be able to provide a better education for their kids.

SpreadsheetAg said:

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AndesAg92 said:

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SpreadsheetAg said:

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AndesAg92 said:

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Does someone want to give the 5 bullet point version of School Choice?

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Quote:

---

The Problem
-Parents are not able to give their children the educational opportunities they desire.
-Parents don't have ownership over their tax dollars being used for educational funding.
-Some solutions lead to greater problems since they require tax money to be given to the government from some and then distributed to others an unfair system that creates unwanted government strings.

The Solution
-Distribute educational funds in a manner that they follow the student to any school, whether public, private, charter, or home school through means of tax exemptions and/or credits.

Messaging:
-Maintaining parents' freedom of choice in educating their children is of utmost importance.
-Money for school choice should follow the student and not be handled by or filtered through the government.
-Tax exemptions and/or credits provide the best way to distribute funds since they maintain a free enterprise society unencumbered by government interference or subsidies.

---

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Thank you.

So what happens to the low income areas/schools? Do they get further left behind?

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Don't they currently get funding per capita?

Get better or go away? Get new leadership that will actually educate and not drive parents away?

People are already moving out of districts just to get away from bad schools. This way at least people who can't afford to move light actually be able to provide a better education for their kids.

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The Problem
-Parents are not able to give their children the educational opportunities they desire.


I believe they are able. Move to a better district in a lesser housing situation than you might find satisfactory to current housing (if that is what it takes) to provide a better public school option. I have seen hardworking families do this all the time since my growing up days.

You also have the option to homeschool your kids like you have decided.

You also can send them to private school which is also costly but a choice for education.

If the argument is, I shouldn't have to pay double to not send them to public school, then work on changing the school district. Don't defund them so the working man joe ends up sending his kid to an already poor and now defunded school because more well off folks pumped it into private schools or private tutors, but send them to the fields to compete in UIL with the commoners.


-Parents don't have ownership over their tax dollars being used for educational funding.

This is the biggest point of all school arguments. Public school administration is absolutely terrible across the districts I have had any close interaction with. There needs to be MAJOR change throughout and I think everyone would agree with this. It is very much like any other government entity honestly. I have recently seen it first hand.

But if you start wiping tax dollars from people that choose to put it in private or HS education it will create an even worst problem on the education system than it is already imo. While I can't give the answer or even a path forward I don't think this is the move at all.

The problem is the thing you arbitrarily rule out. Public schools that are bad are bad because they are permanently funded with no accountability.

Public schools do less with more. Private schools do more with less. Why do you think this is?

The other thing is the current dynamic separates the haves and have nots further. People with means and volition will find ways to educate their kids one way or another. People without won't.

Zobel said:

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The problem is the thing you arbitrarily rule out. Public schools that are bad are bad because they are permanently funded with no accountability.

Public schools do less with more. Private schools do more with less. Why do you think this is?

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Because it's the private sector. Think about anything government entity vs private?

No one that is highly competent or has ambition wants to work or deal with the headache.

This is the root of the problem with the public education system and many other issues in the country. Period.

But the the government needs the means to and always should be able to provide education to everyone. The fix in responding to does not help out anyone but each individuals kid. And where they ultimately would place their money would end up being at a place that was in their income bracket/social economic status and that system would send us in a terrible trajectory.

It literally can't be worse than it is. It's already segregated by wealth.

You think school choice is a bigger barrier to a better education than *moving your entire family and house*????

It is not a funding problem. Spending perpetually increases and results don't follow.

Zobel said:

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It literally can't be worse than it is. It's already segregated by wealth.

You think school choice is a bigger barrier to a better education than *moving your entire family and house*????

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What I am saying is that "school choice" seems like a quick fix argument to parents that don't like their zoned schools and are sick of paying more than the next guy.

I don't have a solution for our public education system but I do not believe what I have read here is the answer for reasons I have already stated. Mainly my at a stripped down barebones belief that the govt should be able to raise funds to provide education for everyone and that if families were able to choose that it would go the way of socio economic class and create a staggering level of education level differences of people graduating senior year of HS

Zobel said:

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The problem is the thing you arbitrarily rule out. Public schools that are bad are bad because they are permanently funded with no accountability.

Public schools do less with more. Private schools do more with less. Why do you think this is?

The other thing is the current dynamic separates the haves and have nots further. People with means and volition will find ways to educate their kids one way or another. People without won't.

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Responding to you regarding the "funded without accountability"

This is where I agree

Honestly we agree on the problem, I just don't agree with your solution.

Your last paragraph is describing the status quo. How do you not see this?

Zobel said:

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Your last paragraph is describing the status quo. How do you not see this?

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The idea that the US govt should be able to provide basic education for all?

Yes. It has been the status quo since formal education became instituted.

No, that there would be "the way of socio economic class and create a staggering level of education level differences of people graduating senior year of HS"

This is the reality that our current system has produced, over and over again, without fail.

Zobel said:

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No, that there would be "the way of socio economic class and create a staggering level of education level differences of people graduating senior year of HS"

This is the reality that our current system has produced, over and over again, without fail.

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So you'd like to broaden that gap?

It can't be broadened. The current system makes it as broad as possible, and the more you tax people the bigger the split gets, the more have nots you generate.

If you gave students vouchers all of that vanishes. Texas per student funding is more than I spend for send my kids to private school.

Zobel said:

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It can't be broadened. The current system makes it as broad as possible, and the more you tax people the bigger the split gets, the more have nots you generate.

If you gave students vouchers all of that vanishes. Texas per student funding is more than I spend for send my kids to private school.

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Texas spends about $9400 a year and some of that is sunk costs. The most recent bill for vouchers proposed a payment of 75% of what the state spends which would be about $7000. Thats still well below the average cost of private school at every level in Texas

The voucher isn't going to magically lift poor kids out of a public school in a poor area. It will make it cheaper for parents who can already afford private school though.


The real people hurt by the voucher system are kids that require special education services. As people leave the school system, they get stuck and public schools have less resources to educate them.

There's nothing magic about competition. The current system has produced and entrenched inequality because people with means will always, always, find a way to protect themselves. This is not unique to education, but applies as a general principle with government regulation. The moment school districts become directly responsible to individual parents for funding there is immense pressure to improve. The more diffuse this pressure is, the less effective it is.

Your last comment is a lot like the arguments in favor of abortion to protect rape incest and health of the mother. Special needs kids are less than 3% of the public school population. If we need to address the marginal cases, then do it. It's irrational for marginal cases drive policy for the rest.

Honestly; you want parental engagement? Offer free Texas Public College to top 1% of all HS Students by district in STEM degrees.

(I.e. tuition is waived for these students for 150 hours or whatever it takes to graduate in a normal career path).

https://rptsvr1.tea.texas.gov/cgi/sas/broker?_service=marykay&_program=adhoc.addispatch.sas&major=st&minor=e&charsln=120&linespg=60&loop=1&countykey=&_debug=0&endyear=21&selsumm=ss&key=TYPE+HERE&grouping=g+&format=W

That would be 3,640 waived tuitions in TX 2021 IF all of them chose STEM degrees and in-state university. What's the cost of a 4-year degree? $12,153 tuition per year. (Texas A&M)

$177 MM in waived tuition per year (assuming 3640 in each class year). It's a drop in the bucket.

The unintended consequence is Universities would likely raise tuition on the other students... but something like this could work.

SpreadsheetAg said:

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Honestly; you want parental engagement? Offer free Texas Public College to top 1% of all HS Students by district in STEM degrees.

(I.e. tuition is waived for these students for 150 hours or whatever it takes to graduate in a normal career path).

https://rptsvr1.tea.texas.gov/cgi/sas/broker?_service=marykay&_program=adhoc.addispatch.sas&major=st&minor=e&charsln=120&linespg=60&loop=1&countykey=&_debug=0&endyear=21&selsumm=ss&key=TYPE+HERE&grouping=g+&format=W

That would be 3,640 waived tuitions in TX 2021 IF all of them chose STEM degrees and in-state university. What's the cost of a 4-year degree? $12,153 tuition per year. (Texas A&M)

$177 MM in waived tuition per year (assuming 3640 in each class year). It's a drop in the bucket.

The unintended consequence is Universities would likely raise tuition on the other students... but something like this could work.

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....No such thing as "Free" tuition.

wargograw said:

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Hope you guys defending your precious public school system aren't also complaining about cultural rot.

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I hear you but imagine if "those" kids stayed home all day and just learned from their parent/guardian. You think it's bad now.

Loren Visser said:

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wargograw said:

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Hope you guys defending your precious public school system aren't also complaining about cultural rot.

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I hear you but imagine if "those" kids stayed home all day and just learned from their parent/guardian. You think it's bad now.

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Sad you have this view.

A whopping 21 schools opted into this so called amazing bill. Such access! Good job, Texas.