Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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Fumbleruski said:

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This "announcement" is mainly for optics on both the Russian and CCP sides. Just like Chinese delegates getting on their soap box last week in Alaska, this was all about feeding images and soundbites back to their heavily propagandized public. Neither of those countries can be trusted for a long standing alliance to hold or even project power. This is 1) a finger in the eye of the U.S. and NATO and 2) a relationship of convenience.

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I would say it's a relationship of necessity. They are the two big holdouts to total globalism and the US has made it very clear it intends to take them out

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Interesting take. AmeriKa as the pushing of globalism. Certainly an illustration that if DC starts a war with them this will be a case of a fight with no good sides.

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It's not a take. It's a statement of fact.

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Maybe. Could even grant it with Russia. But China has been acting belligerent and expansionist all on their own for a while now. Its less clear how opposed they are to globalism. Russia, yes.

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China has been "acting belligerent and expansionist"? Would you say the same about the United States? Which has been doing war with various sovereign nations for decades and still has military bases in countries it defeated 80 years ago?

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Don't tie in all the Cold War stuff. All bets are off in the age of bipolar confrontation and risk of nuclear war over ideologies.

If you take from 1991 forward its not like we have been a tenth as belligerent as a superpower probably should have been with such an opportunity. North Korea should not have gotten nukes starting with that 1994 deal. You might say can rebut that claim by what we did NOT do, and probably should have.

Now this century, yes, there has been acting "belligerent and expansionist" - no argument. And having bases in places still are only a problem if you think they are some occupation and extremely determined to deny we are a hegemony like the British Empire. (While not having as many of the Empire's perks of direct imperial imports--in that sense we are not an empire. Like the Left talk about Iraq. Had we seized oil fields and run up our flag and sold it, then we would be. So far, we lack that aspect--perhaps even to a loss.

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Yea without getting into the weeds of an ancient history debate, the point is this. In current time, the United States is far more belligerent and expansionist than China. That's just a matter of fact.

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You had me agreeing with you until this post.

China released this virus on the world. Unless the US has done something that's been successfully hidden from the public, China takes the cake on being belligerent. And China has also been diving into Africa in a way that the US has not been.

You're totally wrong. The US has been the top dog in the world for two decades and we finally have another challenger. The challenger is always the more belligerent aggressor.

---

There is no evidence China released any virus on the world. In fact, traces of it were found in Italy months before wuhan

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There's no evidence because governments won't release the evidence.

I'm 95%+ convinced that this was released by China on purpose. Everything fits. You mention a lack of evidence, but what would happen if the evidence was released? The public would demand war. The public would demand World War III.

Governments won't take that risk since it would cost hundreds of millions of lives, AND there's zero reason to simply assume we would be on the winning side.

China released this virus and it's being covered up to prevent WW3. They bet that global governments wouldn't believe WW3 would be a worthwhile response and China was right.

---

Now that is an interesting take. You are basically saying there is no evidence China release the virus but you believe they did anyway (presumably because the TV said so)

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No, the TV actually says they didn't. I say they did because logic and reason points to it. Have you already forgotten the propaganda that came from China early last year showing people dying in the streets and body bags lining sidewalks because of Covid? I'm sure you don't because the TV stopped talking about it. It was propaganda and it was released by China because the Chinese government controls the flow of information for that country. Videos don't get released without CCP approval.

Smoke. There's an enormous amount of smoke. But if you haven't found a fire then surely the person saying "there's so much smoke that there must be a fire" is off his rocker, right?

EDIT: How Phony Coronavirus "Fear Videos" Were Used as Psychological Weapons to Bring America to Her Knees

Quote:

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I don't know how to say this more clearly: their aggression is not kinetic, but systemic, undermining structures and foundations of a mostly peaceful world system and introducing anarchy for their own benefit.

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That sounds so much like the Democratic Party it is ridiculous.

waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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Fumbleruski said:

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This "announcement" is mainly for optics on both the Russian and CCP sides. Just like Chinese delegates getting on their soap box last week in Alaska, this was all about feeding images and soundbites back to their heavily propagandized public. Neither of those countries can be trusted for a long standing alliance to hold or even project power. This is 1) a finger in the eye of the U.S. and NATO and 2) a relationship of convenience.

---

I would say it's a relationship of necessity. They are the two big holdouts to total globalism and the US has made it very clear it intends to take them out

---

Interesting take. AmeriKa as the pushing of globalism. Certainly an illustration that if DC starts a war with them this will be a case of a fight with no good sides.

---

It's not a take. It's a statement of fact.

---

Maybe. Could even grant it with Russia. But China has been acting belligerent and expansionist all on their own for a while now. Its less clear how opposed they are to globalism. Russia, yes.

---

China has been "acting belligerent and expansionist"? Would you say the same about the United States? Which has been doing war with various sovereign nations for decades and still has military bases in countries it defeated 80 years ago?

---

Don't tie in all the Cold War stuff. All bets are off in the age of bipolar confrontation and risk of nuclear war over ideologies.

If you take from 1991 forward its not like we have been a tenth as belligerent as a superpower probably should have been with such an opportunity. North Korea should not have gotten nukes starting with that 1994 deal. You might say can rebut that claim by what we did NOT do, and probably should have.

Now this century, yes, there has been acting "belligerent and expansionist" - no argument. And having bases in places still are only a problem if you think they are some occupation and extremely determined to deny we are a hegemony like the British Empire. (While not having as many of the Empire's perks of direct imperial imports--in that sense we are not an empire. Like the Left talk about Iraq. Had we seized oil fields and run up our flag and sold it, then we would be. So far, we lack that aspect--perhaps even to a loss.

---

Yea without getting into the weeds of an ancient history debate, the point is this. In current time, the United States is far more belligerent and expansionist than China. That's just a matter of fact.

---

You had me agreeing with you until this post.

China released this virus on the world. Unless the US has done something that's been successfully hidden from the public, China takes the cake on being belligerent. And China has also been diving into Africa in a way that the US has not been.

You're totally wrong. The US has been the top dog in the world for two decades and we finally have another challenger. The challenger is always the more belligerent aggressor.

---

There is no evidence China released any virus on the world. In fact, traces of it were found in Italy months before wuhan

---

There's no evidence because governments won't release the evidence.

I'm 95%+ convinced that this was released by China on purpose. Everything fits. You mention a lack of evidence, but what would happen if the evidence was released? The public would demand war. The public would demand World War III.

Governments won't take that risk since it would cost hundreds of millions of lives, AND there's zero reason to simply assume we would be on the winning side.

China released this virus and it's being covered up to prevent WW3. They bet that global governments wouldn't believe WW3 would be a worthwhile response and China was right.

---

Now that is an interesting take. You are basically saying there is no evidence China release the virus but you believe they did anyway (presumably because the TV said so)

---

No chump, the TV actually says they didn't. I say they did because logic and reason points to it. Have you already forgotten the propaganda that came from China early last year showing people dying in the streets and body bags lining sidewalks because of Covid? I'm sure you don't because the TV stopped talking about it. It was propaganda and it was released by China because the Chinese government controls the flow of information for that country. Videos don't get released without CCP approval.

Smoke. There's an enormous amount of smoke. But if you haven't found a fire then surely the person saying "there's so much smoke that there must be a fire" is off his rocker, right?

---

Yeah I actually do remember China doing a massive lockdown on wuhan. How is that proof of them "intentionally" spreading it to the world?

You remember China claiming to do a massive lockdown. Are you actually claiming that China was truthful with the world over Covid-19? Because you might be the only person in America willing to take them at their word.

But so long as you gain some internet points. who cares, right?

EDIT: Do you understand that the CCP is an actual communist dictatorship?

waitwhat? said:

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You remember China claiming to do a massive lockdown. Are you actually claiming that China was truthful with the world over Covid-19? Because you might be the only person in America willing to take them at their word.

But so long as you gain some internet points. who cares, right?

EDIT: Do you understand that the CCP is an actual communist dictatorship?

---

Uh no I remember reading about the wuhan lockdown and seeing videos of it (perhaps the same vids you watched). I'm asking you how is that proof that they "intentionally released" some virus on the world?

Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

---

Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

---

You remember China claiming to do a massive lockdown. Are you actually claiming that China was truthful with the world over Covid-19? Because you might be the only person in America willing to take them at their word.

But so long as you gain some internet points. who cares, right?

EDIT: Do you understand that the CCP is an actual communist dictatorship?

---

Uh no I remember reading about the wuhan lockdown and seeing videos of it (perhaps the same vids you watched). I'm asking you how is that proof that they "intentionally released" some virus on the world?

---

Gotcha so you read an article based off information released by the CCP and took it as fact. I honestly thought that as a nation we understood 1 year ago that we couldn't take the CCP, the Chinese Communist Dictatorship, at their word.

There is no proof that I have access to. I believe there is proof and that governments are sitting on it to avoid WW3.

Why?

Motivation: would the CCP be motivated to see Trump removed from office? Without question yes. Trump was not good for China. The CCP may not have survived another 4 years of trump.

Ability: would China be capable of engineering a virus to affect global politics? Without question yes. Hence research into whether or not it happened.

Willingness: would the CCP be willing to kill millions of people to stay in power? With little question, yes. They don't have a history of being kind people. Don't judge them on Western values. They are evil people doing evil things to maintain power. This isn't a crazy conspiracy theory. Governments actually do horrible things to maintain or consolidate power. Shocker.

The bet they made was if they could get away with it. The genius of the CCP was to engineer the virus to only attack very old, very sick people with few exceptions. Who would reasonably start WW3 over that? Particularly, again, when Western governments can't guarantee victory?

Nevermind how suspiciously easy creating a vaccine was for COVID. One little protein to disable the virus in less than a year. How lucky is that?

Keep watching the TV instead of using the muscle in your head.

titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

Yup

waitwhat? said:

---

Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

---

You remember China claiming to do a massive lockdown. Are you actually claiming that China was truthful with the world over Covid-19? Because you might be the only person in America willing to take them at their word.

But so long as you gain some internet points. who cares, right?

EDIT: Do you understand that the CCP is an actual communist dictatorship?

---

Uh no I remember reading about the wuhan lockdown and seeing videos of it (perhaps the same vids you watched). I'm asking you how is that proof that they "intentionally released" some virus on the world?

---

Gotcha so you read an article based off information released by the CCP and took it as fact. I honestly thought that as a nation we understood 1 year ago that we couldn't take the CCP, the Chinese Communist Dictatorship, at their word.

There is no proof that I have access to. I believe there is proof and that governments are sitting on it to avoid WW3.

Why?

Motivation: would the CCP be motivated to see Trump removed from office? Without question yes. Trump was not good for China. The CCP may not have survived another 4 years of trump.

Ability: would China be capable of engineering a virus to affect global politics? Without question yes. Hence research into whether or not it happened.

Willingness: would the CCP be willing to kill millions of people to stay in power? With little question, yes. They don't have a history of being kind people. Don't judge them on Western values. They are evil people doing evil things to maintain power. This isn't a crazy conspiracy theory. Governments actually do horrible things to maintain or consolidate power. Shocker.

The bet they made was if they could get away with it. The genius of the CCP was to engineer the virus to only attack very old, very sick people with few exceptions. Who would reasonably start WW3 over that? Particularly, again, when Western governments can't guarantee victory?

Nevermind how suspiciously easy creating a vaccine was for COVID. One little protein to disable the virus in less than a year. How lucky is that?

Keep watching the TV instead of using the muscle in your head.

---

I can tell you've thought about this a lot. Still waiting for evidence though

Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

---

Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

This. Ideally to me this really was just some Chinaman eating a bat and the world overreacting. But the more thought I give to it the less likely it seems.

I don't, have never, and would never claim that the democrats were involved. I think China did it and released propaganda and let the democrats take advantage to destroy Trump. But I don't believe for a second there was any conspiracy between them.

Can't give the same stipulation. Especially given behavior since. They seem to want it too much.

Also, just for arguments sake-- not buying the automatic declaration that anything from China is a `lie' just as it wasn't always true from the Soviet Union.

But I thought it was generally accepted those Dec-January videos were somehow not legit? We have seen for ourselves what covid does not do.

What a lame, lazy response.

Do you believe governments never cover things up? Try harder. I provided my reasoning, one point being the logic behind governments withholding evidence. Come up with a reasoned response why it's not likely or log off with your tail between your legs.

titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

---

Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

---

Yea I understand you're trying to get me to follow a sequence you laid out. Covid was found in Italy months before wuhan. There is absolutely no evidence that China "intentionally released" it. Your sequence is conjecture.

waitwhat? said:

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What a lame, lazy response.

Do you believe governments never cover things up? Try harder. I provided my reasoning, one point being the logic behind governments withholding evidence. Come up with a reasoned response why it's not likely or log off with your tail between your legs.

---

I'm not the one claiming China "intentionally released" a virus, you are. I'm asking for proof not conjecture

Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

---

Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

---

Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

---

Yea I understand you're trying to get me to follow a sequence you laid out. Covid was found in Italy months before wuhan. There is absolutely no evidence that China "intentionally released" it. Your sequence is conjecture.

---

I am not trying to get you to do anything. An no, the Italy lockdown was well after Wuhan. It knocked out a relatives trip to Italy, so recall that vividly. Are you claiming something in Italy pre-Nov 2019 when the soonest in China appears to be alleged? The narrative on this keeps changing.

You are side-stepping --- did they promote fake videos? If they did, why? Or is your opinion that they were not fake videos, or, that it is false to say CCP controls all (which will grant both as a valid arguments)

Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

---

What a lame, lazy response.

Do you believe governments never cover things up? Try harder. I provided my reasoning, one point being the logic behind governments withholding evidence. Come up with a reasoned response why it's not likely or log off with your tail between your legs.

---

I'm not the one claiming China "intentionally released" a virus, you are. I'm asking for proof not conjecture

---

And you're ignoring the fact that governments have a history of covering things up when necessary and that governments have a reason to cover this up.

Of course I can't provide proof, and I even said I'm only 95%+ positive that this is what happened because I know the world is run by evil people who do evil things. I'm accepting of the possibility that this really was just a Chinaman eating a bat. I just don't believe that's the case.

I believe the proof is there but the government won't release it in order to prevent WW3. You're demanding I prove a negative, which simply isn't possible.

EDIT: and your response to that is that we should just blindly accept the government narrative rather than using the muscle in our skulls.

titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

---

Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

---

Yea I understand you're trying to get me to follow a sequence you laid out. Covid was found in Italy months before wuhan. There is absolutely no evidence that China "intentionally released" it. Your sequence is conjecture.

---

I am not trying to get you to do anything. An no, the Italy lockdown was well after Wuhan. It knocked out a relatives trip to Italy, so recall that vividly. Are you claiming something in Italy pre-Nov 2019 when the soonest in China appears to be alleged? The narrative on this keeps changing.

You are side-stepping --- did they promote fake videos? If they did, why?

---

Remember this? If not here you go

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201117/SARS-CoV-2-was-circulating-in-Italy-before-China-recognized-its-existence.aspx

Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

---

Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

---

Yea I understand you're trying to get me to follow a sequence you laid out. Covid was found in Italy months before wuhan. There is absolutely no evidence that China "intentionally released" it. Your sequence is conjecture.

---

I am not trying to get you to do anything. An no, the Italy lockdown was well after Wuhan. It knocked out a relatives trip to Italy, so recall that vividly. Are you claiming something in Italy pre-Nov 2019 when the soonest in China appears to be alleged? The narrative on this keeps changing.

You are side-stepping --- did they promote fake videos? If they did, why?

---

Remember this? If not here you go

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201117/SARS-CoV-2-was-circulating-in-Italy-before-China-recognized-its-existence.aspx

---

Nope. Never saw that. That makes your case. Granted. If that is true, all bets are off.

waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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What a lame, lazy response.

Do you believe governments never cover things up? Try harder. I provided my reasoning, one point being the logic behind governments withholding evidence. Come up with a reasoned response why it's not likely or log off with your tail between your legs.

---

I'm not the one claiming China "intentionally released" a virus, you are. I'm asking for proof not conjecture

---

And you're ignoring the fact that governments have a history of covering things up when necessary and that governments have a reason to cover this up.

Of course I can't provide proof, and I even said I'm only 95%+ positive that this is what happened because I know the world is run by evil people who do evil things. I'm accepting of the possibility that this really was just a Chinaman eating a bat. I just don't believe that's the case.

I believe the proof is there but the government won't release it in order to prevent WW3. You're demanding I prove a negative, which simply isn't possible.

---

Stop and take a look at your argument. You come in with the presumption that China released a virus. And then you put out a bunch of conjecture ("the government fakes stuff", "motivation"). That's not how it works. The problem is that you are convinced they did it (without evidence) and therefore are arguing in bad faith.

titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

---

All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

---

No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

---

Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

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Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

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Yea I understand you're trying to get me to follow a sequence you laid out. Covid was found in Italy months before wuhan. There is absolutely no evidence that China "intentionally released" it. Your sequence is conjecture.

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I am not trying to get you to do anything. An no, the Italy lockdown was well after Wuhan. It knocked out a relatives trip to Italy, so recall that vividly. Are you claiming something in Italy pre-Nov 2019 when the soonest in China appears to be alleged? The narrative on this keeps changing.

You are side-stepping --- did they promote fake videos? If they did, why?

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Remember this? If not here you go

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201117/SARS-CoV-2-was-circulating-in-Italy-before-China-recognized-its-existence.aspx

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Nope. Never saw that. That makes your case. Granted. If that is true, all bets are off.

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Love you titan

Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

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All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

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No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

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Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

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Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

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Yea I understand you're trying to get me to follow a sequence you laid out. Covid was found in Italy months before wuhan. There is absolutely no evidence that China "intentionally released" it. Your sequence is conjecture.

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I am not trying to get you to do anything. An no, the Italy lockdown was well after Wuhan. It knocked out a relatives trip to Italy, so recall that vividly. Are you claiming something in Italy pre-Nov 2019 when the soonest in China appears to be alleged? The narrative on this keeps changing.

You are side-stepping --- did they promote fake videos? If they did, why?

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Remember this? If not here you go

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201117/SARS-CoV-2-was-circulating-in-Italy-before-China-recognized-its-existence.aspx

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This is an interesting piece for you to gloss over:

Quote:

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Italy reported its first cases of COVID-19 when two tourists from China tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 in Rome. The first laboratory-confirmed Italian COVID-19 case was detected in Lombardy on February 20, 2020. The male patients had no history of possible contacts with positive cases in Italy or abroad.

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Just guessing, but I am thinking the argument -- and its a good one - -is this. (1) If true nothing is broadcast like that from China without CCP permission, and (2) those vidoes were faked, (3) it means they knowingly promoted fake videos of an outbreak, which (4) only really makes sense if you are somehow directing it.

Just a guess. Can't speak for him.

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All of that is called "reaching". You are jumping to the conclusion you want to find.

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No I Am Not. I want China not to be malevolent; prefer to believe some of their actions are defensive. But that's just preference--not convinction. Your reply actually doesn't address the sequence I offered--if #1 is true ---- where is the flaw in that sequence?

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Your #1 had a #2 attached to it: "the vids were fake".

---

Isn't that the large consensus now -- the dropping like flies and the like is simply not how the virus acts and that those were posed?

So stipulate #2 and what follows?

---

Yea I understand you're trying to get me to follow a sequence you laid out. Covid was found in Italy months before wuhan. There is absolutely no evidence that China "intentionally released" it. Your sequence is conjecture.

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I am not trying to get you to do anything. An no, the Italy lockdown was well after Wuhan. It knocked out a relatives trip to Italy, so recall that vividly. Are you claiming something in Italy pre-Nov 2019 when the soonest in China appears to be alleged? The narrative on this keeps changing.

You are side-stepping --- did they promote fake videos? If they did, why?

---

Remember this? If not here you go

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201117/SARS-CoV-2-was-circulating-in-Italy-before-China-recognized-its-existence.aspx

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This is an interesting piece for you to gloss over:

Quote:

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Italy reported its first cases of COVID-19 when two tourists from China tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 in Rome. The first laboratory-confirmed Italian COVID-19 case was detected in Lombardy on February 20, 2020. The male patients had no history of possible contacts with positive cases in Italy or abroad.

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Ha well now I know you didn't read the article if that's the post you wanna make

That article Proper Twelve posted is really disturbing. They used a very persuasive method to check for it--- just going back and examining already gathered samples that had been gathered for another reason.

But if this is true --- what the hell does it mean. Does it explain why China can try to call it not their doing? Or the ridiculous "European virus" switch attempted by some as term? But if it was there as early as Sept/Oct --- where started first.

It really depends how legit this is.

Just more reason to remain agnostic about the matter.

Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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What a lame, lazy response.

Do you believe governments never cover things up? Try harder. I provided my reasoning, one point being the logic behind governments withholding evidence. Come up with a reasoned response why it's not likely or log off with your tail between your legs.

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I'm not the one claiming China "intentionally released" a virus, you are. I'm asking for proof not conjecture

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And you're ignoring the fact that governments have a history of covering things up when necessary and that governments have a reason to cover this up.

Of course I can't provide proof, and I even said I'm only 95%+ positive that this is what happened because I know the world is run by evil people who do evil things. I'm accepting of the possibility that this really was just a Chinaman eating a bat. I just don't believe that's the case.

I believe the proof is there but the government won't release it in order to prevent WW3. You're demanding I prove a negative, which simply isn't possible.

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Stop and take a look at your argument. You come in with the presumption that China released a virus. And then you put out a bunch of conjecture ("the government fakes stuff", "motivation"). That's not how it works. The problem is that you are convinced they did it (without evidence) and therefore are arguing in bad faith.

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I get what you're saying and don't actually disagree. It's something I struggle with because on the one hand we know for a fact that governments lie and cover things up, and on the other hand the fact that they lie and cover things up doesn't mean they lie or cover up everything. Hence me leaving room for it really just being a Chinaman eating a bat.

I'm leaving room for it really being an extreme coincidence that the country that would benefit so much from Trump losing re-election happened to have a well timed virus pop out and that maybe the videos that were spread were random bad actors.

But I also think you're arguing in bad faith if you just blindly assume that it's not true, despite my giving logical reasons for it to be possible, simply because the evidence isn't there and despite the reasoning for why evidence would be withheld.

Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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Fumbleruski said:

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This "announcement" is mainly for optics on both the Russian and CCP sides. Just like Chinese delegates getting on their soap box last week in Alaska, this was all about feeding images and soundbites back to their heavily propagandized public. Neither of those countries can be trusted for a long standing alliance to hold or even project power. This is 1) a finger in the eye of the U.S. and NATO and 2) a relationship of convenience.

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I would say it's a relationship of necessity. They are the two big holdouts to total globalism and the US has made it very clear it intends to take them out

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Interesting take. AmeriKa as the pushing of globalism. Certainly an illustration that if DC starts a war with them this will be a case of a fight with no good sides.

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It's not a take. It's a statement of fact.

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Maybe. Could even grant it with Russia. But China has been acting belligerent and expansionist all on their own for a while now. Its less clear how opposed they are to globalism. Russia, yes.

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China has been "acting belligerent and expansionist"? Would you say the same about the United States? Which has been doing war with various sovereign nations for decades and still has military bases in countries it defeated 80 years ago?

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Don't tie in all the Cold War stuff. All bets are off in the age of bipolar confrontation and risk of nuclear war over ideologies.

If you take from 1991 forward its not like we have been a tenth as belligerent as a superpower probably should have been with such an opportunity. North Korea should not have gotten nukes starting with that 1994 deal. You might say can rebut that claim by what we did NOT do, and probably should have.

Now this century, yes, there has been acting "belligerent and expansionist" - no argument. And having bases in places still are only a problem if you think they are some occupation and extremely determined to deny we are a hegemony like the British Empire. (While not having as many of the Empire's perks of direct imperial imports--in that sense we are not an empire. Like the Left talk about Iraq. Had we seized oil fields and run up our flag and sold it, then we would be. So far, we lack that aspect--perhaps even to a loss.

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Yea without getting into the weeds of an ancient history debate, the point is this. In current time, the United States is far more belligerent and expansionist than China. That's just a matter of fact.

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You had me agreeing with you until this post.

China released this virus on the world. Unless the US has done something that's been successfully hidden from the public, China takes the cake on being belligerent. And China has also been diving into Africa in a way that the US has not been.

You're totally wrong. The US has been the top dog in the world for two decades and we finally have another challenger. The challenger is always the more belligerent aggressor.

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There is no evidence China released any virus on the world. In fact, traces of it were found in Italy months before wuhan

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False.

waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Proper Twelve said:

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waitwhat? said:

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What a lame, lazy response.

Do you believe governments never cover things up? Try harder. I provided my reasoning, one point being the logic behind governments withholding evidence. Come up with a reasoned response why it's not likely or log off with your tail between your legs.

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I'm not the one claiming China "intentionally released" a virus, you are. I'm asking for proof not conjecture

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And you're ignoring the fact that governments have a history of covering things up when necessary and that governments have a reason to cover this up.

Of course I can't provide proof, and I even said I'm only 95%+ positive that this is what happened because I know the world is run by evil people who do evil things. I'm accepting of the possibility that this really was just a Chinaman eating a bat. I just don't believe that's the case.

I believe the proof is there but the government won't release it in order to prevent WW3. You're demanding I prove a negative, which simply isn't possible.

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Stop and take a look at your argument. You come in with the presumption that China released a virus. And then you put out a bunch of conjecture ("the government fakes stuff", "motivation"). That's not how it works. The problem is that you are convinced they did it (without evidence) and therefore are arguing in bad faith.

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I get what you're saying and don't actually disagree. It's something I struggle with because on the one hand we know for a fact that governments lie and cover things up, and on the other hand the fact that they lie and cover things up doesn't mean they lie or cover up everything. Hence me leaving room for it really just being a Chinaman eating a bat.

I'm leaving room for it really being an extreme coincidence that the country that would benefit so much from Trump losing re-election happened to have a well timed virus pop out and that maybe the videos that were spread were random bad actors.

But I also think you're arguing in bad faith if you just blindly assume that it's not true, despite my giving logical reasons for it to be possible, simply because the evidence isn't there and despite the reasoning for why evidence would be withheld.

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I respect your mental struggle and can relate as I have it often. I do not believe I am arguing in bad faith however. I've had years of TV telling me this and that and it's usually all just meant to form a belief. I am not pro China. I don't really care about China. I am anti war however. And all this "China did covid" propaganda (without evidence) seems to me like the tinder to a new war

Now it is a matter of explaining the apparently fake videos. But if this started in Sep 2019 or earlier, even if it came from China, it starts looking far less connected to the then still distant 2020 election. Which also bears on the question of being deliberate less likely.

titan said:

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Now it is a matter of explaining the apparently fake videos. But if this started in Sep 2019 or earlier, even if it came from China, it starts looking far less connected to the then still distant 2020 election. Which also bears on the question of being deliberate less likely.

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You are operating under the assumption that the vids were fake

Proper Twelve said:

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titan said:

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Now it is a matter of explaining the apparently fake videos. But if this started in Sep 2019 or earlier, even if it came from China, it starts looking far less connected to the then still distant 2020 election. Which also bears on the question of being deliberate less likely.

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You are operating under the assumption that the vids were fake

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No, they appear fake, and that seems to be the current conclusion even by more China friendly sources. They also kind of look it. Covid has not behaved that way.

Quote:

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And all this "China did covid" propaganda (without evidence) seems to me like the tinder to a new war

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Nope. I actually don't support a war because of the death toll and that there's no guarantee our side would win. I think China released the virus to get Trump out of office and I don't want to go to war over it because war would be worse. For this reason I'm not against governments withholding the evidence. It's better for the world to believe this was just a Chinaman eating a bat. But TexAgs isn't the world and I'm comfortable saying it here.

I just hope it's been made clear to the CCP that if they try anything like that again we'll turn them to glass.

waitwhat? said:

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Quote:

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And all this "China did covid" propaganda (without evidence) seems to me like the tinder to a new war

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Nope. I actually don't support a war because of the death toll and that there's no guarantee our side would win. I think China released the virus to get Trump out of office and I don't want to go to war over it because war would be worse. For this reason I'm not against governments withholding the evidence. It's better for the world to believe this was just a Chinaman eating a bat. But TexAgs isn't the world and I'm comfortable saying it here.

I just hope it's been made clear to the CCP that if they try anything like that again we'll turn them to glass.

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Yeah I don't know about all of that. Maybe I guess. I do find it funny that you begin with the statement that you don't like war and end with "we will turn them to glass".