Klein TX 77379

How much power can the average size home panels produce on a good day?

Repeat after me......you will go green. You will go green. You will go green......

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For those who care about this sort of thing, right now the vast majority of solar cells are being produced in China, even if the panels are assembled in the US. The Chinese army hacked and stole the current generation of technology that was developed in the US and gave it to Chinese solar companies. They then subsidized production in China so that the Chinese companies were able to drive one of the last remaining US cell producers out of business and put the last one into bankruptcy (it has subsequently emerged).

Also, China's solar cell/module industry is one of the big industries in Xinjang, where they are engaging in incredibly despicable genocide-level forced labor activities against the ethnic minority Uyghur population (think rounding them up and shipping them in literal box cars to factories, mines, etc., bad).

Finally, solar cells are actually semiconductor devices. So before you put solar panels on your house, consider if you are comfortable having Chinese government stolen and supported semiconductor devices on the roof of your house. There is a very good reason why the US military, government, etc. does not let solar panels with Chinese cells anywhere near their facilities.

You may want to ask who made the cells and where as part of your consideration if these issues are important to you.

I prefer a backup generator that burns clean natural gas, I wont have to worry about cloudy cold winter days when no power will be generated from my solar panels, just open up the value and let the natural propane flow into my generator as i sit in my propane heated pool drinking whiskey and watch the guys across the street ***** and moan about their solar panels that aren't working.. or their batteries have fallen ill to long unused use.

I've posted previously about my solar system, but can't find those. My wife & I live in Austin, Texas and have an 11.7 kW solar system. We had it installed in December 2014, and turned on in Spring of 2015. Freedom Solar installed it for us. Specifically we have 36 SunPower 327W solar panels attached to 2 inverters (solar panels make direct current, the inverters change it to alternating current that we use in our house). The original plan was that it would offset ~73% of our electric consumption, and I think its probably done close to that. We chose SunPower because they were the most efficient panels that were available at that time. We don't have a battery system - we just sell excess power back to the City of Austin.

The cost of the system was roughly $46,000. Of that total, we got the following subsidies:

1) $1500 off of the solar panels (discount through my wife's job);
2) A federal tax credit of 1/3 of the cost of the system; and
3) A subsidy of about 30% from the City of Austin (Austin Electric).

We financed the remainder (roughly $15,000) through a credit union at a low interest rate (I think at 4 or 5% - more expensive than any of our other debt but still low) and paid it off a couple of years ago. The intent of the financing was to make the system payments be no more than our typical electric bill. When I was originally running the numbers I felt that the system would pay for itself in about 7 years, and I think that its either done that or come close. And by pay for itself, I mean the $15k, not the full price of the unsubsidized system.

Our system is roof based with 18 panels facing south and 18 panels facing east (toward our back yard). Because half our system faces east we generally ramp up earlier and the power production goes down earlier than with some other systems. Here is a photograph of our system:



The thing about solar is it only works when direct sunlight it hitting the panels at the right angle. If its cloudy, or at the wrong angle, or shade from a tree or a chimney hits the panels, then they don't produce much power. We have an egauge, which is a data logger that tracks how much power we use and produce. We've used it to determine where we use our power - I can turn on a space heater or the dryer and know how much power it pulls. Some pictures of its output are provided below. To understand them:

1) The green filled areas under the green line represent excess power that we have produced but aren't using ourselves. We sell this power back to the City of Austin.
2) The red filled areas under the red line are represent power that we buy.
3) The white filled areas under the red line represent power that we produce and use ourselves.
4) The y axis is power produced and used; the x axis is time.
5) The column on the right is the amount of power we were producing and using the second that I took that picture.

This is the last 24 hours. You can see that it was sunny this morning with occasional clouds this afternoon. It was cloudy yesterday.

This is the last 3 days. Saturday and Friday were cloudy and cool - our electric heat was kicking in Friday night, and we did laundry on Saturday (the dryer is an energy hog).

This is the last 3 weeks. Some good and bad power producing days in there.

This is the last 3 months. I included this one so you could see that we weren't producing much solar power during the Snowmaggeddon.

That's as much as I can think to share about our system, but if you have questions I will try to answer them.

monarch said:

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Klein TX 77379

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Someone on here can prove me wrong but I haven't heard of success stories around Houston. I have heard of installation problems and rip offs.

Another scenario- I know of a couple wanting to do this in Brenham to go 100% off grid. It was not doable with solar in this area to run the house they wanted with AC and pool. Kinda obvious to me but they went through the process.

Last things - if we lose power then there is a cutoff and the solar system does not provide electricity to the house or the grid. The reason is that they want to make sure the lines aren't hot when the electricians and linesmen are working on them. We do have one hot plug per inverter that we can use during power outages, but only if the system is producing power.

If we had a battery system or a whole house emergency generator, we'd have a shutoff where we would automatically disconnect from the grid in the event of a power outage. So we'd be isolated from the outside lines & not potentially putting linesmen at risk.

I looked at power walls. They came out a year or two after we got our system. Didn't end up getting them because they were so expensive (~$10k each at that time) and I figured we'd need 4 of them to run the house (so ~$40k) . From what I recall a whole house natural gas generator would cost less than a single battery (I think around $5 to 7k) and could do the same thing. Those were numbers I evaluated in 2016 or 2017, so no idea where the costs have gone since then. The generator I looked at was a Caterpillar, which was also expensive. And I'm not sure on the cost of the generator - I just remember it being a far more economic and reasonable option for emergency power.

I'd say that if you're getting a battery system, you'd have to get it with the system to ensure the purchase was subsidized. Otherwise its prohibitively expensive. And even if its subsidized it seems like a nat gas generator would be a better financial choice.

Solar only makes economic sense in just 2 situations:

• Off the grid. i.e. cabin or RV.
• Emergency when ROI doesn't matter.

Show me a valid ROI argument otherwise.

Solar cells are single digit effecient in terms of converting ight into electricity. It has its place, but not on a home when you get 40 yo 50 inches of rain per year and there are few cloudless days.

There should be zero tax breaks and incentives, and let it be revealed as a sham for most homeowners.

you need to refresh your info about panel efficiency... typical panels are over 20% nowadays

fullback44 said:

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I prefer a backup generator that burns clean natural gas, I wont have to worry about cloudy cold winter days when no power will be generated from my solar panels, just open up the value and let the natural propane flow into my generator as i sit in my propane heated pool drinking whiskey and watch the guys across the street ***** and moan about their solar panels that aren't working.. or their batteries have fallen ill to long unused use.

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This. And if you can comfortably maintain a 500 SF portion of your home with a small 7.5kW gen and a 500g propane tank.

I slept last night, so I don't remember who told me this....

They have a system that covers roughly 50% of the roof. When it was time for a new roof last year, the roofers wouldn't touch the solar system. The system installer had to remove and re-install everything after the new shingles were laid. That was an out-of-pocket expense to the tune of $15,000.

If we do go this route and install solar, I have already made it clear to the supplier that Communist Chinese product will not be allowed for anything. I have been told that German product is available as is domestic.

Ag87H2O said:

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Without subsidies, solar will not pay for itself. If you want solar to have the security of an independent power source in case the grid goes down then fine, but if you want it in order to save money over the long haul then don't bother with them.

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That's why the climate change folks want to add carbon tax to all fossil fuel generated energy. Get fossil energy cost high enough and solar investment starts to look attractive

Cromagnum said:

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Sid Farkas said:

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I'm building a house with solar now in the SoCal desert. I'll get back to you after the summer. But my projected utility bills will be $85/mo

Supplier is Tesla. Pro tip: don't rent the system if you don't have to

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My energy bill is between $100-200 without solar. I don't see the point in buying something that will take 20-30 years to break even, if it lasts that long without needing repairs in the first place.

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You live in Texas?

When I lived in California, my bills were running $700 during the summer and that's without a pool. A 90% drop in bills is a huge step change and might be worth it if you will be in the house long term or you think you can recoup the cost when selling your house

Ag87H2O said:

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Without subsidies, solar will not pay for itself. If you want solar to have the security of an independent power source in case the grid goes down then fine, but if you want it in order to save money over the long haul then don't bother with them.

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A friend of my son has solar. Well, during our "freeze from hell" he lost power and his Solars did not work.

It seems that when the Solar units are connected to the main power grid and the grid goes dark, so do the panels.

I'll plan on eventually getting something like a Tesla solar roof. That's really where the future is with this. This tech needs a little more time to mature IMO before it makes sense. Your shingles are the solar panels. Looks a lot better too.

Cactus Jack said:

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I'll plan on eventually getting something like a Tesla solar roof. That's really where the future is with this. This tech needs a little more time to mature IMO before it makes sense. Your shingles are the solar panels. Looks a lot better too.

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Imagine the repair cost after a hurricane. For that reason, I'm out.

I looked into solar and wind not because of any green thing or SJW stuff but rather for the desire to be self-sufficient. Solar and wind didn't, and still don't, make sense from a financial perspective. As others have mentioned, we have too many overcast days for solar to do the job. Wind maps say that there isn't enough wind where I live but I question that is we live in a very small "valley" on the edge of the prairie and the wind sure funnels through our property - its always windy as I am constantly replacing flags. Even still, its cost prohibitive.

Not to derail the thread but a few small nuclear power plants strategically placed throughout Texas would eliminate the need for green new deal crap and then folks would only need back up power sources in the case of lines/transformers/sub-stations being down.

Time to #TEXIT and be truly independent so we can develop and embrace new and emerging technologies.

Rexter said:

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I slept last night, so I don't remember who told me this....

They have a system that covers roughly 50% of the roof. When it was time for a new roof last year, the roofers wouldn't touch the solar system. The system installer had to remove and re-install everything after the new shingles were laid. That was an out-of-pocket expense to the tune of $15,000.

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In order to get a subsidy from the City of Austin they require a roofing inspection and other energy efficiency improvements prior to installing the system. The roof needs at least a 20 year lifespan per Austin's rules. That makes sense to me.

The $15,000 price doesn't surprise me.

Last item - after talking with others with solar, you can pair roof improvements (or a new roof) along with the solar system and get the federal tax credit on the entire amount.

APHIS AG said:

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Ag87H2O said:

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Without subsidies, solar will not pay for itself. If you want solar to have the security of an independent power source in case the grid goes down then fine, but if you want it in order to save money over the long haul then don't bother with them.

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A friend of my son has solar. Well, during our "freeze from hell" he lost power and his Solars did not work.

It seems that when the Solar units are connected to the main power grid and the grid goes dark, so do the panels.

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This is correct & what I was trying to say about the cutoff switch and danger to linesmen. There is a cutoff that prevents the solar system from feeding power back to the house or the grid. You need a second cutoff between the house and the grid to be able to electrify the house when the power is off. You'd get this type of cutoff if you have an integrated generator or battery system.

Quote:

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There is a very good reason why the US military, government, etc. does not let solar panels with Chinese cells anywhere near their facilities.

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China is an embargoed country under ITAR 126.1. These are Belarus, Burma, China, Cuba, Eritrea, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, and Venezuela. Nothing Chinese can be supplied, not just solar panels. I don't know all the ins and outs though.

I have been looking into 12.24 kW Tesla Solar system + 3 Powerwalls which works out about $37.5k after-tax incentives or I can finance for about $250/mo.

I created a spreadsheet using our actual usage from TexasSmartMeter.com and estimated our solar output using the PVWatts calculator.

I own a Tesla Model X and we are just finishing getting a pool installed.

If we use a Nights Free plan similar to what Direct Energy has with free power from 9pm to 9am and charge my car and run my pool pumps during that time, my monthly payments for electricity + solar finance payments would be about exactly the same as my current electricity bill. The benefit is that in addition to the power, I would now have full battery back-up in case of power loss without any out-of-pocket costs.

If the free nights plan goes away, I would be paying about an extra $40/mo.

I can also go with an 8.16 kW package with 2 powerwalls for $25k and save about $75/mo in the financing. This would save us about $13/mo based on my calculations compared to no panels with a free nights electricity plan. This would also mean less panels which would look nicer. However, that limits our whole home back up quite a bit losing that 3rd powerwall, so we would really have to cut back if we did lose power.

I am still waiting on a design from Tesla to see if I will get wife approval on this project aesthetically.

More questions...

The dollars that come back to the buyer in some form have been stated to be as follows:
1. A rebate
This means to me that the dollars come back to the buyer in check form and therefor can be used for any purpose.
2. A tax credit-A
To me this means you get a credit that can be filed on your tax return against taxes already paid. In example if I buy the system in 2021, I can apply the credit in 2022 to my 2021 tax return. If there is money left over, you can file that balance on your 2022 return in 2023.
3. A tax credit- B
One company has told us that the credit can be applied to the current invoice for the purchase thereby lowering the $$$ invoiced and as a result financed.
4. I'm wondering if any $$$ is considered taxable income?
5. The amount of money that comes back to the customer varies from job to job, subject to AGI, salaries of the buyers and tax liability on an annual basis.

Confused as hell, I am.

Comments?

monarch said:

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More questions...

The dollars that come back to the buyer in some form have been stated to be as follows:
1. A rebate
This means to me that the dollars come back to the buyer in check form and therefor can be used for any purpose.
2. A tax credit-A
To me this means you get a credit that can be filed on your tax return against taxes already paid. In example if I buy the system in 2021, I can apply the credit in 2022 to my 2021 tax return. If there is money left over, you can file that balance on your 2022 return in 2023.
3. A tax credit- B
One company has told us that the credit can be applied to the current invoice for the purchase thereby lowering the $$$ invoiced and as a result financed.
4. I'm wondering if any $$$ is considered taxable income?
5. The amount of money that comes back to the customer varies from job to job, subject to AGI, salaries of the buyers and tax liability on an annual basis.

Confused as hell, I am.

Comments?

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My understanding is that if you pay cash, #2 is the answer in terms of the tax credit. However, if you finance, most of the companies will allow you to finance the amount of the panels minus the tax credit with the assumption you will make a lump payment of the tax credit once you get that back after filing taxes in 2022. If you don't make the lump payment, your monthly payments will go up the appropriate amount due to the amount financed going up.

One thing to look into...

A friend who has solar in Austin seems to think that city of Austin will buy all of the power that you generate, even the stuff that you could use, at the lowest rates of the day. Then, they sell you back every bit of energy to use at the prevailing rate at the time. So, when the rates are high, you are paying the full rate for every bit that you use at that time, and every bit of electricity that you generate gets sold back to city of Austin at the low rate, even if you could have used it to power your house.

Anyone else aware of this?

Solar power is an awful alternative to oil and gas.

To be honest, I have never thought about the shortcomings of solar energy before. I have always thought that alternative energy (including solar) is always a good way out. I became interested in this issue and read here a few more interesting and new facts for me. But to be honest, I realized that I didn't know much about solar energy at all.

Laura_Jonees said:

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To be honest, I have never thought about the shortcomings of solar energy before. I have always thought that alternative energy (including solar) is always a good way out. I became interested in this issue and read here a few more interesting and new facts for me. But to be honest, I realized that I didn't know much about solar energy at all.

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Alright "Ms" Envrexperts.com, when are you going to fix the link to your "About Us" page?

My biggest question on it is does solar panels covering your roof do anything to the roofs life? I understand the actually energy costs taking 18-20 years to pay back, but does covering the roof with them make the roof last longer?

I have solar night lights in our landscaping. I like solar recharged battery operated caution signs used on remote roads far from an electrical source.