AggieSarah01 said:

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The data seems to point that way:

https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-comprehensive-analysis-of-50-states-shows-greater-spread-with-mask-mandates

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I read the article, and nowhere in there did the author state that they found (or even surmised) that wearing a mask made anything "worse". This thread title is very misleading, and it seems like there's a lot of amateur virologists on here theorizing about "damp dirty masks" contributing to virus spread.

However, the article showed that (based on the available data) there's no correlation between mandatory mask orders and prevention of COVID spread. Based on our limited information (and the biases of the website), I'm not surprised they came to that conclusion.

Honestly, while I'm someone who regularly wears a mask in public, I believe that it's mostly an act to make us feel like we have control. It feels like a case of too little, too late, but I don't get upset about it. It really isn't a hassle, and I'm happy to give a stranger a bit of comfort when being in my presence. Also, I don't trust the average person to resist going in public when they have symptoms (I know I've done it), so it is reassuring to know maybe it prevents some of the worst offenders from spraying the virus all over the grocery store.

Also, the article relies a lot on the Florida data (given the Gov not giving a state-wide mask order and the county based data), but I still think this isn't great data for drawing these conclusions. The counties that have no public mask mandate tend to be rural/less-populated, but more importantly, they don't have easy access to get tested. Anecdotally, I know this based on how easy I was able to get a free rapid test in Broward County, but wasn't able to do so in Volusia County. Obviously, less access to easy, free testing means less positive results, which will skew those numbers. I'd think a better comparison would be positivity rate (rather than cases per 100k population), as that would remove some of that bias from the data.

But I'm not a virologist (or data analyst), so I'm just guessing like the rest of ya'll.

ah nevermind.

puryear94 said:

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Cassius said:

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puryear94 said:

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What about South Korea? Over 50 million people tightly packed together wearing masks with half the number of cases as San Antonio.

The major outbreaks they have had were in locations where masks were ignored.

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There is no evidence of the bolded.

As far as asian countries, there are other possibilities.

I could post about 1000 studies, one done recently with covid folks, that show no evidence of mask mitigation, but you won't believe it. So continue on in your bliss.

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Here are two instances, the first of which accounts for almost 10% of all Korean infections:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1103080/south-korea-covid-19-cases-related-to-shincheonji-church/

Also:
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-2573_article#:~:text=At%20least%20246%20cases%20of,to%20limit%20COVID%2D19%20spread.

"other possibilities" such as... don't tell me resistance because of SARS, there were only around 200 cases. So what are these other possibilities?

I didn't attack anyone, just had a question, but wow, are people here ready to dogpile on others who don't share their opinions.

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Here is a recent study. A study is much better than general observation of the population because its controlled. I can post about a dozen other studies before covid if you want that show the same thing.

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

"A total of 3030 participants were randomly assigned to the recommendation to wear masks, and 2994 were assigned to control; 4862 completed the study. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%). The between-group difference was 0.3 percentage point (95% CI, 1.2 to 0.4 percentage point; P = 0.38) (odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23]; P = 0.33). Multiple imputation accounting for loss to follow-up yielded similar results. Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection."




Sorry, not trying to dogpile, but the studies bear out that masks are pretty much useless against spread of a visus.

The Euros mandated masks and thought they had it behind them only to have huge surges and lockdowns
again this fall. Many liberal states and cities did the same, only to have huge spikes. Your conclusion about "masks being ignored" is baseless. You seem to be begging the question: you believe masks work, thus the mandates had to have been ignored since they didnt work.

Show me the data behind non compliance. You cant make that statement without lots of data. And there is no data, quite frankly.

I don't know, OP, but I wear a mask only when I have to and I have missed out on the virus so far.

I have not missed a day of work. I have been to church every Sunday after the initial month or so that church was virtual. I have been to the grocery store dozens of times, hardware stores at least a dozen times, I have flown five multi-hour round trips on full flights on American with no distancing. I spent Thanksgiving and Christmas with family outside my household with no masks, and my wife works at a school and has had quite a number of covid-positive students since school started in the fall.

Maybe it's a good idea to keep your distance from people generally and to wash your hands frequently. I do both of those all the time anyway.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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I don't know, OP, but I wear a mask only when I have to and I have missed out on the virus so far.

I have not missed a day of work. I have been to church every Sunday after the initial month or so that church was virtual. I have been to the grocery store dozens of times, hardware stores at least a dozen times, I have flown five multi-hour round trips on full flights on American with no distancing. I spent Thanksgiving and Christmas with family outside my household with no masks, and my wife works at a school and has had quite a number of covid-positive students since school started in the fall.

Maybe it's a good idea to keep your distance from people generally and to wash your hands frequently. I do both of those all the time anyway.

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imo, those points are the key, not masks.

Moron sheep in Hawaii who says masks work....except the data doesn't support that.

Cassius said:

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Dare you to post it on the doomer board!

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Would be an auto-ban for sure.

Here is a recent study. A study is much better than general observation of the population because its controlled. I can post about a dozen other studies before covid if you want that show the same thing.

[url=https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817][/url]https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

"A total of 3030 participants were randomly assigned to the recommendation to wear masks, and 2994 were assigned to control; 4862 completed the study. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%). The between-group difference was 0.3 percentage point (95% CI, 1.2 to 0.4 percentage point; P = 0.38) (odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23]; P = 0.33). Multiple imputation accounting for loss to follow-up yielded similar results. Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection."




Sorry, not trying to dogpile, but the studies bear out that masks are pretty much useless against spread of a visus.

The Euros mandated masks and thought they had it behind them only to have huge surges and lockdowns
again this fall. Many liberal states and cities did the same, only to have huge spikes. Your conclusion about "masks being ignored" is baseless. You seem to be begging the question: you believe masks work, thus the mandates had to have been ignored since they didnt work.

Show me the data behind non compliance. You cant make that statement without lots of data. And there is no data, quite frankly.


This study admits:
"Our results suggest that the recommendation to wear a surgical mask when outside the home among others did not reduce, at conventional levels of statistical significance, the incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection in mask wearers in a setting where social distancing and other public health measures were in effect, mask recommendations were not among those measures, and community use of masks was uncommon."

This study asked a few people to wear masks in a population where most did not wear masks so the results make sense. Masks are designed to prevent infected people from spreading the virus, not protect the wearer.

The study further states:
" these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections"

The "mask" he was wearing only reduced his chance by 50% or 1/2.

Masks don't reduce any chances of anything any any percentage. They literally do nothing. Not one damn thing.

annie88 said:

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The "mask" he was wearing only reduced his chance by 50% or 1/2.

Masks don't reduce any chances of anything any any percentage. They literally do nothing. Not one damn thing.

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Fact check: False.

They kill penguins and stuff like that.

I still want to see a mask spec.
Anybody?

Here is some science showing masks don't work. More studies are out, this is just a few I grabbed.


Review of the Medical Literature
Here are key anchor points to the extensive scientific literature that establishes that wearing surgical masks and respirators (e.g., "N95") does not reduce the risk of contracting a verified illness:

Jacobs, J. L. et al. (2009) "Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: A randomized controlled trial," American Journal of Infection Control, Volume 37, Issue 5, 417 419. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216002

N95-masked health-care workers (HCW) were significantly more likely to experience headaches. Face mask use in HCW was not demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds.

Cowling, B. et al. (2010) "Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: A systematic review," Epidemiology and Infection, 138(4), 449-456. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic- review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05
None of the studies reviewed showed a benefit from wearing a mask, in either HCW or community members in households (H). See summary Tables 1 and 2 therein.

bin-Reza et al. (2012) "The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence," Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses 6(4), 257267. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x
"There were 17 eligible studies. None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection."

Smith, J.D. et al. (2016) "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis," CMAJ Mar 2016 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567
"We identified six clinical studies . In the meta-analysis of the clinical studies, we found no significant difference between N95 respirators and surgical masks in associated risk of (a) laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, (b) influenza-like illness, or (c) reported work-place absenteeism."

Offeddu, V. et al. (2017) "Effectiveness of Masks and Respirators Against Respiratory Infections in Healthcare Workers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis," Clinical Infectious Diseases, Volume 65, Issue 11, 1 December 2017, Pages 19341942, https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/11/1934/4068747

Radonovich, L.J. et al. (2019) "N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel: A Randomized Clinical Trial," JAMA. 2019; 322(9): 824833. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214

"Among 2862 randomized participants, 2371 completed the study and accounted for 5180 HCW-seasons. ... Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

Long, Y. et al. (2020) "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks against influenza: A systematic review and meta-analysis," J Evid Based Med. 2020; 1- 9. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jebm.12381

"A total of six RCTs involving 9,171 participants were included. There were no statistically significant differences in preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza, laboratory-confirmed respiratory viral infections, laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, and influenza-like illness using N95 respirators and surgical masks. Meta-analysis indicated a protective effect of N95 respirators against laboratory-confirmed bacterial colonization (RR = 0.58, 95% CI 0.43-0.78). The use of N95 respirators compared with surgical masks is not associated with a lower risk of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

Conclusion Regarding That Masks Do Not Work

No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW or community members in households to wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions.
Likewise, no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public (more on this below).

Furthermore, if there were any benefit to wearing a mask, because of the blocking power against droplets and aerosol particles, then there should be more benefit from wearing a respirator (N95) compared to a surgical mask, yet several large meta-analyses, and all the RCT, prove that there is no such relative benefit.

daggertx said:

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Here is some science showing masks don't work. More studies are out, this is just a few I grabbed.


Review of the Medical Literature
Here are key anchor points to the extensive scientific literature that establishes that wearing surgical masks and respirators (e.g., "N95") does not reduce the risk of contracting a verified illness:

Jacobs, J. L. et al. (2009) "Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: A randomized controlled trial," American Journal of Infection Control, Volume 37, Issue 5, 417 419. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216002

N95-masked health-care workers (HCW) were significantly more likely to experience headaches. Face mask use in HCW was not demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds.

Cowling, B. et al. (2010) "Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: A systematic review," Epidemiology and Infection, 138(4), 449-456. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic- review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05
None of the studies reviewed showed a benefit from wearing a mask, in either HCW or community members in households (H). See summary Tables 1 and 2 therein.

bin-Reza et al. (2012) "The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence," Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses 6(4), 257267. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x
"There were 17 eligible studies. None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection."

Smith, J.D. et al. (2016) "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis," CMAJ Mar 2016 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567
"We identified six clinical studies . In the meta-analysis of the clinical studies, we found no significant difference between N95 respirators and surgical masks in associated risk of (a) laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, (b) influenza-like illness, or (c) reported work-place absenteeism."

Offeddu, V. et al. (2017) "Effectiveness of Masks and Respirators Against Respiratory Infections in Healthcare Workers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis," Clinical Infectious Diseases, Volume 65, Issue 11, 1 December 2017, Pages 19341942, https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/11/1934/4068747

Radonovich, L.J. et al. (2019) "N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel: A Randomized Clinical Trial," JAMA. 2019; 322(9): 824833. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214

"Among 2862 randomized participants, 2371 completed the study and accounted for 5180 HCW-seasons. ... Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

Long, Y. et al. (2020) "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks against influenza: A systematic review and meta-analysis," J Evid Based Med. 2020; 1- 9. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jebm.12381

"A total of six RCTs involving 9,171 participants were included. There were no statistically significant differences in preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza, laboratory-confirmed respiratory viral infections, laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, and influenza-like illness using N95 respirators and surgical masks. Meta-analysis indicated a protective effect of N95 respirators against laboratory-confirmed bacterial colonization (RR = 0.58, 95% CI 0.43-0.78). The use of N95 respirators compared with surgical masks is not associated with a lower risk of laboratory-confirmed influenza."

Conclusion Regarding That Masks Do Not Work

No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW or community members in households to wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions.
Likewise, no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public (more on this below).

Furthermore, if there were any benefit to wearing a mask, because of the blocking power against droplets and aerosol particles, then there should be more benefit from wearing a respirator (N95) compared to a surgical mask, yet several large meta-analyses, and all the RCT, prove that there is no such relative benefit.

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People are stupid. They believe what they choose to believe, to hell with studies, data and analysis.

When this thing first began, I was all in on masks. Then I started looking at the data and studies. Mind changed.