Based on what? That a man overdosed in the custody of a police officer? Is that a crime to have someone OD in your custody? Forgive me if I'm misreading this post but it sounds like you're desperate to see something stick despite the evidence showing there's nothing there.BusterAg said:If this happens, is there some charge that the Federal Government can bring?Maroon Dawn said:
Been saying it for months now
They know Biden can't win and that Trump is headed for a landslide
Their ace in the hole has always been this over charged murder count
Ellison will drop the murder charges right before the first debate/early voting begins claiming a corrupt system that lets racist white cops kill innocent black men and walk away free.
MSM, Social media will take it from there with blaring headlines of "NO JUSTICE FOR FLOYD!!"
That's the signal for the second round of preplanned riots to spark outright shooting insurrection with whites and Republican voting places openly targeted with the intent to cause mass chaos and confusion
Be prepared
It's coming
It would be interesting if Ellison drops the case, and then the DOJ slaps both Chauvin and the Wisconsin police department with charges the next day.
Court TV finally understands problems with George Floyd cases...
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Last: 4 yr ago by Joseph Parrish
They should do something like that, like Democrats routinely do. Just invent something. Like seems to always go on with this Judge Sullivan in the Flynn framing.BusterAg said:If this happens, is there some charge that the Federal Government can bring?Maroon Dawn said:
Been saying it for months now
They know Biden can't win and that Trump is headed for a landslide
Their ace in the hole has always been this over charged murder count
Ellison will drop the murder charges right before the first debate/early voting begins claiming a corrupt system that lets racist white cops kill innocent black men and walk away free.
MSM, Social media will take it from there with blaring headlines of "NO JUSTICE FOR FLOYD!!"
That's the signal for the second round of preplanned riots to spark outright shooting insurrection with whites and Republican voting places openly targeted with the intent to cause mass chaos and confusion
Be prepared
It's coming
It would be interesting if Ellison drops the case, and then the DOJ slaps both Chauvin and the Wisconsin police department with charges the next day.
Ellison is a Marxist type Democrat---part of the subversion. There can be little doubt there is political strategy to his charging. So your idea is a good one- -find something to take it away from him and kick the case past the first week of November.
FrioAg 00:
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
And when the officers are exonerated it will be Rodney King x 100 in America's big cities.
That's why this information needs to get out there. These are not solid cases, not by a long shot.BoDog said:
And when the officers are exonerated it will be Rodney King x 100 in America's big cities.
Yeah, I meant Minneapolis.aggiehawg said:What are you asking? Not Wisconsin, Minnesota, in particular Minneapolis PD. The US Attorney was on the scene and investigating within a few days of his death. They have now gone radio silent. There are no federal charges here.Quote:
If this happens, is there some charge that the Federal Government can bring?
It would be interesting if Ellison drops the case, and then the DOJ slaps both Chauvin and the Wisconsin police department with charges the next day.
I know there are no federal charges pending. Is there anything that could be filed? I know that in many fraud cases, the Feds will file some charges and ask for a stay depending on the outcome of the state cases.
I just don't know if there is something that the Feds can file, as almost all violent crime is based on state law. Is there something about misconduct from the DA office than can be filed? Aren't there any federal laws against police brutality that can be filed?
Grasping at straws, I know, but would be an interesting potential play if there is anything at all to try and charge.
Ellison drops all charges a week before the election. DOJ files charges the next day.
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I am not seeing any basis for federal charges against any of the officers. Legit bust, following procedure and training, expressed concern for his health and wondered about excited delirium being an issue, made the second call for enhanced EMS response. How were the officers to know he had already ingested a fatal amount of fentanyl?BusterAg said:Yeah, I meant Minneapolis.aggiehawg said:What are you asking? Not Wisconsin, Minnesota, in particular Minneapolis PD. The US Attorney was on the scene and investigating within a few days of his death. They have now gone radio silent. There are no federal charges here.Quote:
If this happens, is there some charge that the Federal Government can bring?
It would be interesting if Ellison drops the case, and then the DOJ slaps both Chauvin and the Wisconsin police department with charges the next day.
I know there are no federal charges pending. Is there anything that could be filed? I know that in many fraud cases, the Feds will file some charges and ask for a stay depending on the outcome of the state cases.
I just don't know if there is something that the Feds can file, as almost all violent crime is based on state law. Is there something about misconduct from the DA office than can be filed? Aren't there any federal laws against police brutality that can be filed?
Grasping at straws, I know, but would be an interesting potential play if there is anything at all to try and charge.
Ellison drops all charges a week before the election. DOJ files charges the next day.
The Hennepin County DA expressed his reticence about charges being brought but AG Ellison effectively took the case away from him and filed his own (largely tenuous) charges. DAs and AGs overcharge all of the time but it is not a crime as the adversary system usually resolves those cases. So it would be overreach, in my view, for DOJ to try to claim Ellison is violating their civil rights when motions to dismiss are pending before the courts.
As things stand now, I can't fathom why or how DOJ would choose to get involved here.
The dismissal ruling is on September 11th
YouBet said:But it started a conversation!aggiehawg said:Yeah. They even say they are employed to get into the minutiae in their analysis. To which I say:wbt5845 said:
The MSM can almost be excused for not knowing the law - but Court TV employs - like - LAWYERS.
This whole murder charge seems odd - but if Amber Geyger can be convicted of murder, I guess anyone can.
Better late than never, I guess. But to think of all of the carnage and destruction on a false narrative, it is just so needless and sad.
A conversation with burning, looting, (actual) murder, escalation of race war, etc!
Quote:
I started a joke which started the whole world crying
But I didn't see that the joke was on me oh no
I started to cry which started the whole world laughing
Oh If I'd only seen that the joke was on me
----------------------------------------------------------------Bee Gees (1968)
Minus the hand wringing about black victim hood and not wanting to appear racist, pretty good analysis all around in the OP's video
Oh, I could fathom why, just not how.aggiehawg said:I am not seeing any basis for federal charges against any of the officers. Legit bust, following procedure and training, expressed concern for his health and wondered about excited delirium being an issue, made the second call for enhanced EMS response. How were the officers to know he had already ingested a fatal amount of fentanyl?BusterAg said:Yeah, I meant Minneapolis.aggiehawg said:What are you asking? Not Wisconsin, Minnesota, in particular Minneapolis PD. The US Attorney was on the scene and investigating within a few days of his death. They have now gone radio silent. There are no federal charges here.Quote:
If this happens, is there some charge that the Federal Government can bring?
It would be interesting if Ellison drops the case, and then the DOJ slaps both Chauvin and the Wisconsin police department with charges the next day.
I know there are no federal charges pending. Is there anything that could be filed? I know that in many fraud cases, the Feds will file some charges and ask for a stay depending on the outcome of the state cases.
I just don't know if there is something that the Feds can file, as almost all violent crime is based on state law. Is there something about misconduct from the DA office than can be filed? Aren't there any federal laws against police brutality that can be filed?
Grasping at straws, I know, but would be an interesting potential play if there is anything at all to try and charge.
Ellison drops all charges a week before the election. DOJ files charges the next day.
The Hennepin County DA expressed his reticence about charges being brought but AG Ellison effectively took the case away from him and filed his own (largely tenuous) charges. DAs and AGs overcharge all of the time but it is not a crime as the adversary system usually resolves those cases. So it would be overreach, in my view, for DOJ to try to claim Ellison is violating their civil rights when motions to dismiss are pending before the courts.
As things stand now, I can't fathom why or how DOJ would choose to get involved here.
Found this site: https://www.justice.gov/crt/addressing-police-misconduct-laws-enforced-department-justice
Looks like the DOJ could move to get the neck restraint banned under the Federal Civil Enforcement Act, and criminal punishment for excessive use of force under the Federal Criminal Enforcement Act.
Look, I get that there were extinuating circumstances here, and a jury is likely to acquit. I would acquit based on the fentanyl thing alone.
But Chauvin should have gotten off Floyd's neck when he was limp. At least push for that change, even if there is no manslaughter charge.
The Why is easy: to thwart an Ellison scheme to politicize it for his party. He is not just Democrat, he is party of that radical wing. Kick it beyond first week of November.Quote:
As things stand now, I can't fathom why or how DOJ would choose to get involved here.
The How: be creative, like the Democrats are doing with Flynn.
FrioAg 00:
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
The analysis of how this was exculpatory evidence on an intentional charge of murder against Chauvin but failed to get further into the remaining charges. Guess one bombshell (to them anyway) was enough for that day.Mr. AGSPRT04 said:
Minus the hand wringing about black victim hood and not wanting to appear racist, pretty good analysis all around in the OP's video
I skimmed through this thread but are there any legal folks in here who can give me an opinion on how they think this will fall?
Because criminals never fake things to try and decieve the cops.BusterAg said:
But Chauvin should have gotten off Floyd's neck when he was limp.
Yep, they know damn well those charges won't stick and the general public will easily be fooled. They already have the templates for the Tweets and articles ready.Maroon Dawn said:
Been saying it for months now
They know Biden can't win and that Trump is headed for a landslide
Their ace in the hole has always been this over charged murder count
Ellison will drop the murder charges right before the first debate/early voting begins claiming a corrupt system that lets racist white cops kill innocent black men and walk away free.
MSM, Social media will take it from there with blaring headlines of "NO JUSTICE FOR FLOYD!!"
That's the signal for the second round of preplanned riots to spark outright shooting insurrection with whites and Republican voting places openly targeted with the intent to cause mass chaos and confusion
Be prepared
It's coming
I'm not a lawyer, but I live in the courtroom. Lots of possibilitiesGood Poster said:
I skimmed through this thread but are there any legal folks in here who can give me an opinion on how they think this will fall?
1) DA drops the case a week before the election.
2) This thing goes to trial, acquittal on the evidence.
3) This thing goes to trial, jury convicts, judge dismisses after trial before judgement for lack of evidence
4) This thing goes to trial, jury convicts, judge finds guilty, Chauvin wins on appeal.
I could see any one of these four as a reasonable outcome.
I think it very far fetched that Chauvin does time.
Aggiebrewer said:
So glass half empty for you then?
NO AMNESTY!
in order for democrats, liberals, progressives et al to continue their illogical belief systems they have to pretend not to know a lot of things; by pretending "not to know" there is no guilt, no actual connection to conscience. Denial of truth allows easier trespass.
in order for democrats, liberals, progressives et al to continue their illogical belief systems they have to pretend not to know a lot of things; by pretending "not to know" there is no guilt, no actual connection to conscience. Denial of truth allows easier trespass.
Hearing on Chauvin's motion to dismiss on September 11th. (There are also motions to dismiss on file on behalf of the other officers.) I don't expect an immediate ruling as the judge will have to weigh his options carefully.Good Poster said:
I skimmed through this thread but are there any legal folks in here who can give me an opinion on how they think this will fall?
It could end up being an outright denial of the motion to dismiss or a partial granting and partial denial meaning the intentional murder charges get tossed and the lesser charges remain.
As to the other officers, Lane (the rookie) has the best chance of dismissal of all charges, in my view. He expressed the most concern for an obviously upset and erratic Floyd, trying to calm him down, acceding to his requests for the window down and to sit with him in the car, all while Floyd continued to actively resist. Lane called the EMS. He rode in the ambulance and assisted in efforts to save Floyd's life. As far as an excessive force case, he is the least culpable if any of them are culpable. (Which I don't think any are culpable in a criminal or civil way.)
One last point. Medical Examiners determine cause of death and then categorize the manner of death as natural causes, accident or homicide but their word on the manner of death is not legally dispositive. On May 31, the ME finally got the toxicology report back and had a conference call with prosecutors. He said had Floyd been found anywhere else, he would have ruled the death as an accidental overdose. That shatters his credibility for being a prosecution witness and makes him a great defense witness. (Notice the Court TV folks failed to mention this.)
Michael Baden's family sponsored private autopsy conclusions are of little help to the prosecution either as he made his conclusions it was a homicide and he failed to wait for the tox report and tissue sample analysis. His conclusion can thereby be shredded by defense counsel.
The upshot of all of this is that the prosecution is not in a position to be medically able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Floyd's death was anything other than an overdose.
My .02.
One of the biggest things overlooked in that video is one of the bullet points next to the photo. It says " Place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia."
The photo at the bottom is from the same manual and describes the recovery position.
The manual also describes when the maximum restraint technique can be used. "the maximal restraint technique shall only be used in situations where handcuffed subjects are combative and still pose a threat to themselves, officers or others, or could cause significant damage property if not properly restrained." The manual doesn't say to use this technique on cases of suspected excited delirium as claimed in the video. That makes sense, because that kind of technique is the last thing you'd want to do in a case of excited delirium.
I think there is absolutely enough evidence to justify the use of the technique at the beginning, but as Floyd losses consciousness it becomes harder to justify.
The fact that Lane identified potential problems with the position of Floyd and suggested rolling him to his side could be a big factor. This is assuming that the officer's actions actually contributed to Floyd's death. If they didn't, then none of this matters.
https://www.kare11.com/amp/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-training-materials-show-knee-to-neck-restraint-similar-to-used-on-george-floyd/89-9f002e3f-972a-4410-86cb-50a1237fc496?__twitter_impression=true
The photo at the bottom is from the same manual and describes the recovery position.
The manual also describes when the maximum restraint technique can be used. "the maximal restraint technique shall only be used in situations where handcuffed subjects are combative and still pose a threat to themselves, officers or others, or could cause significant damage property if not properly restrained." The manual doesn't say to use this technique on cases of suspected excited delirium as claimed in the video. That makes sense, because that kind of technique is the last thing you'd want to do in a case of excited delirium.
I think there is absolutely enough evidence to justify the use of the technique at the beginning, but as Floyd losses consciousness it becomes harder to justify.
The fact that Lane identified potential problems with the position of Floyd and suggested rolling him to his side could be a big factor. This is assuming that the officer's actions actually contributed to Floyd's death. If they didn't, then none of this matters.
https://www.kare11.com/amp/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-training-materials-show-knee-to-neck-restraint-similar-to-used-on-george-floyd/89-9f002e3f-972a-4410-86cb-50a1237fc496?__twitter_impression=true
Who will listen?aggiehawg said:That's why this information needs to get out there. These are not solid cases, not by a long shot.BoDog said:
And when the officers are exonerated it will be Rodney King x 100 in America's big cities.
He was flailing about, talking incoherently, and the minor detail of his torso being on it's side vs. his chest didn't impact the amount of fluid in his lungs in any way. I'd expect any medical expert to agree given the level of fentanyl in his system/weight of his lungs post mortem.
He was a dead man walking; it didn't matter how he was restrained. The officers just didn't know it.
Any disciplinary memo in Chauvin's file as to 'please when using MRT put the suspect to his side' won't matter; it's not a real cause in fact to the harm here, and he won't ever work another shift as a police officer.
He was a dead man walking; it didn't matter how he was restrained. The officers just didn't know it.
Any disciplinary memo in Chauvin's file as to 'please when using MRT put the suspect to his side' won't matter; it's not a real cause in fact to the harm here, and he won't ever work another shift as a police officer.
nortex97 said:
He was flailing about, talking incoherently, and the minor detail of his torso being on it's side vs. his chest didn't impact the amount of fluid in his lungs in any way. I'd expect any medical expert to agree given the level of fentanyl in his system/weight of his lungs post mortem.
He was a dead man walking; it didn't matter how he was restrained. The officers just didn't know it.
Any disciplinary memo in Chauvin's file as to 'please when using MRT put the suspect to his side' won't matter; it's not a real cause in fact to the harm here, and he won't ever work another shift as a police officer.
Ok. That why I included the last sentence in my post. I'm not a medical expert that can make a determination on cause of death. Medical experts from both sides will testify and the jury will make a determination on who to believe.
The ME and Michael Baden are already compromised on credibility.Quote:
Medical experts from both sides will testify and the jury will make a determination on who to believe.
Thank you "old dame" for your analysis. Always appreciate your thoughts on matters.aggiehawg said:Hearing on Chauvin's motion to dismiss on September 11th. (There are also motions to dismiss on file on behalf of the other officers.) I don't expect an immediate ruling as the judge will have to weigh his options carefully.Good Poster said:
I skimmed through this thread but are there any legal folks in here who can give me an opinion on how they think this will fall?
It could end up being an outright denial of the motion to dismiss or a partial granting and partial denial meaning the intentional murder charges get tossed and the lesser charges remain.
As to the other officers, Lane (the rookie) has the best chance of dismissal of all charges, in my view. He expressed the most concern for an obviously upset and erratic Floyd, trying to calm him down, acceding to his requests for the window down and to sit with him in the car, all while Floyd continued to actively resist. Lane called the EMS. He rode in the ambulance and assisted in efforts to save Floyd's life. As far as an excessive force case, he is the least culpable if any of them are culpable. (Which I don't think any are culpable in a criminal or civil way.)
One last point. Medical Examiners determine cause of death and then categorize the manner of death as natural causes, accident or homicide but their word on the manner of death is not legally dispositive. On May 31, the ME finally got the toxicology report back and had a conference call with prosecutors. He said had Floyd been found anywhere else, he would have ruled the death as an accidental overdose. That shatters his credibility for being a prosecution witness and makes him a great defense witness. (Notice the Court TV folks failed to mention this.)
Michael Baden's family sponsored private autopsy conclusions are of little help to the prosecution either as he made his conclusions it was a homicide and he failed to wait for the tox report and tissue sample analysis. His conclusion can thereby be shredded by defense counsel.
The upshot of all of this is that the prosecution is not in a position to be medically able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Floyd's death was anything other than an overdose.
My .02.
aggiehawg said:The ME and Michael Baden are already compromised on credibility.Quote:
Medical experts from both sides will testify and the jury will make a determination on who to believe.
Should be an easy decision for the jury then.
Suppose a jury finds the police innocent ....how many cities will burn, how many people will die ??
I've been going back and forth on the question of whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing for this trial to be televised. (Assuming there is one for Chauvin.)Foxo said:
Suppose a jury finds the police innocent ....how many cities will burn, how many people will die ??
Ultimately, televising OJ's trial didn't really sway public opinion from their immediate opinions of OJ's guilt or innocence. Had he been convicted, I have little doubt there would have riots had he been convicted. But that was a much more complicated and nuanced case.
This one is more straightforward and much much more easy for the average person to understand. Further, it might be the only and best way to get vast numbers of people to actually watch the entire 40 minutes of the encounter (much of which Chauvin wasn't even on scene for) to give context to the 9 minute tape that went viral.
Thoughts?
Thanks for posting that.
titan said:Answer: Watching the "news" and ONLY the "news".Quote:
Wonder where they have been the last three months?
You underestimate what boards like this and blogs, and discussions on the Internet uncover. Obvious things like what does a manual in use actually say, rarely comes up on alphabet "mainstream" news. And certainly not within hours of the incident as any realistic investigation would do. Another example is how fast the Internet outs hoaxes.
The so-called `Fourth Estate' no longer does such sleuthing. Except once in a blue moon.
Obviously Court TV doesn't follow F16.
The key question is what the call was relayed to dispatch as? If it's an overdose that always a code 3 call. Code 1 calls are with no lights and sirens and code 3 are lights and sirens in most places in Texas.LOYAL AG said:I think we'll have a trial for Manslaughter but the following are going to render an innocent verdict:BusterAg said:
I still think that there is at least a case for manslaughter.
Even if that procedure is in the manual, Chauvin should have stopped using it when Floyd went limp. There is at least a controversy there that a jury should hear.
Best case scenario here from a civil unrest point of view, is everyone gets dropped on this but Chauvin, he goes to the trial, the mainstream media has to cover the trial, the details come out, Chauvin gets acquitted or Chauvin wins on some dismissal or appeal somewhere between the jury trial and the end of the appeal.
- It's in the manual. IMO it will be tough for a jury to convict an officer for doing what he's been taught to do. Does the manual need to change? Maybe but that's not his call to make particularly in real time.
- The body cam video showing Floyd saying he can't breath while standing up.
- The tox report showing 3x lethal concentration of fentenyl and a high dose of meth.
- The clear video evidence he had overdose and was displaying signs during the arrest and before he was on the ground.
- Chauvin ordered the EMT's to be called. When they didn't arrive fast enough he ordered the call escalated. (NOTE: This is something I remember reading, not a fact I can point to directly. If it's wrong let me know.)
- The lack of damage to his neck from the autopsy report. He wasn't strangled and didn't suffocate from the knee to the neck.
The trial is going to see the defense run out as many experts as the judge will allow that will testify that Floyd overdosed and that there was nothing Chauvin did to contribute to his death.
Code 2 when Floyd was thrashing around in the back of the squad car and split his lip. Code 3 when Chauvin asked what was the EMS code sent. When the response was a Code 2, he directed to raise it to a 3.Quote:
The key question is what the call was relayed to dispatch as? If it's an overdose that always a code 3 call. Code 1 calls are with no lights and sirens and code 3 are lights and sirens in most places in Texas.
aggiehawg said:Code 2 when Floyd was thrashing around in the back of the squad car and split his lip. Code 3 when Chauvin asked what was the EMS code sent. When the response was a Code 2, he directed to raise it to a 3.Quote:
The key question is what the call was relayed to dispatch as? If it's an overdose that always a code 3 call. Code 1 calls are with no lights and sirens and code 3 are lights and sirens in most places in Texas.
See that's definitely a racist intent on murdering a black man.