Bird93 said:

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I completely understand this sentiment. Our challenge, however is not to fall into the same line of thought as the agitators. The protesters are not a homogenous group, just as all Aggies who want the statue to remain are not racists.

Yes, many of the protest organizers are Marxist scum, who are far more racially bigoted than than the white boogeymen they attack. But I've been to several peaceful protests, and I've listened to the stories of what many of our black brothers and sisters have endured, and these same stories are echoed by most of my black friends. The conversations that stem from those encounters are good, productive and necessary; and they're exactly what needs to be happening right now. Listening to their grievances is very enlightening and necessary to the achieving unity.

I'm not advocating that we cave to demands of the hate groups behind many of these protests. We all know they have ulterior motives and aren't interested in healing and unity. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to separate the wheat from their chaff.

I've become very cynical politically because the progressive is trying to destroy the values we hold dear, the values that made us great. But it's become apparent to me the issues we're facing now are not going to be resolved at the political level. It's going to require a grassroots effort between real humans to unify and move forward. I'm just trying to do my part. Maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I feel led to try.

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Great post.

Bird93 said:

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I'm a former RV, and I'm pro statue because presentism is dangerous, canceling history is dangerous, selective condemnation is dangerous, pandering is dangerous, etc, etc, etc. The ideals of being a soldier, statesman, and knightly gentleman are the very foundation of what it means to be an Aggie. The Ross Volunteers represent and embody those ideals.

That said, my life will not be ruined, nor will my love for A&M be negated if the statue is removed. I think there may be those who are truly impacted by it, and I want to be empathetic. But there are also those who only seek to sow discord. They are dangerous and need to be addressed.

I love all people, especially all Aggies; and I don't pretend to have the answers for the LSR statue dilemma. If I thought for a second that getting rid of the statue would create unity, I would be an advocate to do so. But I think it's just the tip of the iceberg for what the agitators hope to accomplish. It makes me sad.

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Just came here to say that this is the best, most reasonable response to this I've seen from anyone, anywhere. Which, of course, means that people will attack it. Thanks for posting!

Bird93 said:

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I completely understand this sentiment. Our challenge, however is not to fall into the same line of thought as the agitators. The protesters are not a homogenous group, just as all Aggies who want the statue to remain are not racists.

Yes, many of the protest organizers are Marxist scum, who are far more racially bigoted than than the white boogeymen they attack. But I've been to several peaceful protests, and I've listened to the stories of what many of our black brothers and sisters have endured, and these same stories are echoed by most of my black friends. The conversations that stem from those encounters are good, productive and necessary; and they're exactly what needs to be happening right now. Listening to their grievances is very enlightening and necessary to the achieving unity.

I'm not advocating that we cave to demands of the hate groups behind many of these protests. We all know they have ulterior motives and aren't interested in healing and unity. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to separate the wheat from their chaff.

I've become very cynical politically because the progressive is trying to destroy the values we hold dear, the values that made us great. But it's become apparent to me the issues we're facing now are not going to be resolved at the political level. It's going to require a grassroots effort between real humans to unify and move forward. I'm just trying to do my part. Maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I feel led to try.

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Another solid post and I don't disagree with any of it. I will say that I wish I shared your optimism. After what I witnessed Friday I know we are dunzo for the foreseeable future until real change is made here starting at the top.

edit: I didn't mean here as in TexAgs and the top.

Don't get me wrong, amigo. I'm not very optimistic, but greater battles have been fought and won under more dire circumstances. This is an ideological battle worth fighting.

ETA I'm referencing the ideology of racism AND the ideology of Marxism. They are mutually exclusive, despite what many of the protest leaders may have us believe.

Here's the issue in a nutshell (and it has little to do with Sully).

As the demographics of Texas have changed, and the university has embraced diversity to serve the people of Texas, we have a lot of students on campus (and now former students, too) who don't see anything at A&M that is "theirs."

Most minority students embrace A&M, but in today's world, there is great social value in resisting that type of assimilation. And if you've been taught to look at life through the lens of race, then Aggie traditions, culture, environment -- heck, just about everything about the place -- are "white." And lame. Or in today's language, problematic.

So some resist and agitate. And they are encouraged to do so by a lot of professors and administrators who feel the same way. And of course, by the vast majority of white students who are terrified of not being seen as an ally.

Sully is just an easy target for students who aren't comfortable at A&M. That's why his removal would have no impact. After Sully is gone, they would still feel uncomfortable and would still be unhappy.

The only way to fix this issue is for A&M to increase its support of new cultural traditions that these students recognize, relate to and can embrace. That's how you make A&M more inclusive.

I don't know how to do that, but this type of student isn't going away. They either need to be channeled into something productive or they will continue to push for the destruction of existing traditions and culture.

Edited to add: A&M also needs to do a better job of getting more minority students to Fish Camp where they can have the opportunity to learn about and embrace traditions BEFORE they get to campus. I know FC has a bad rep among many on TexAgs, but it's the best way to help people feel comfortable about their A&M experience.

Couldn't have said it better than my man Bird93.

My concern is the good faith argument some Aggies are trying to make and I'm willing to engage in that conversation. But I'm also wary of the destructive political forces in play that seek to undermine everything we hold dear.

The most convincing argument I've heard is that some black Aggies believe Sully would never have allowed them to attend Texas A&M or even allow them to walk across campus. If true, it follows that the statue should not be the focal point of the University.

You can see the problem with that argument. You can't refute, i.e., 100% disprove, the statement. You can only read the historical record then extrapolate the philosophical implications. And that extrapolation will be undoubtedly skewed by the bias of both the historical record as well as the person interpreting that history.

If it can be demonstrated that Sully was a white supremacist and actively fought against black people attending Texas A&M, then the statue should go. But serving in the CSA doesn't automatically prove this assertion. And to my knowledge, Sully's historical record indicates he fought for the rights of blacks to pursue higher education, albeit separate from whites. But Texas didn't fully desegregate its schools unit the 1970s so Sully couldn't reasonably be expected to conquer that horrible injustice during his lifetime (1838-1898).

So the problem statement provided above can be rebutted but not fully refuted. And if there are other issues or concerns I'm willing to listen, assuming the argument is being made in good faith.

REAL BAD '93

hairloom said:

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Have there been any posts, interviews, Twitter mentions of current and former Ross Volunteers and their thoughts on the removal of Sully?

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Shut them down.

RF93 said:

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Couldn't have said it better than my man Bird93.

My concern is the good faith argument some Aggies are trying to make and I'm willing to engage in that conversation. But I'm also wary of the destructive political forces in play that seek to undermine everything we hold dear.

The most convincing argument I've heard is that some black Aggies believe Sully would never have allowed them to attend Texas A&M or even allow them to walk across campus. If true, it follows that the statue should not be the focal point of the University.

You can see the problem with that argument. You can't refute, i.e., 100% disprove, the statement. You can only read the historical record then extrapolate the philosophical implications. And that extrapolation will be undoubtedly skewed by the bias of both the historical record as well as the person interpreting that history.

If it can be demonstrated that Sully was a white supremacist and actively fought against black people attending Texas A&M, then the statue should go. But serving in the CSA doesn't automatically prove this assertion. And to my knowledge, Sully's historical record indicates he fought for the rights of blacks to pursue higher education, albeit separate from whites. But Texas didn't fully desegregate its schools unit the 1970s so Sully couldn't reasonably be expected to conquer that horrible injustice during his lifetime (1838-1898).

So the problem statement provided above can be rebutted but not fully refuted. And if there are other issues or concerns I'm willing to listen, assuming the argument is being made in good faith.

REAL BAD '93

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Got to say that's as well put as anything I've read on the subject.

Old RV Ag said:

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RF93 said:

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Couldn't have said it better than my man Bird93.

My concern is the good faith argument some Aggies are trying to make and I'm willing to engage in that conversation. But I'm also wary of the destructive political forces in play that seek to undermine everything we hold dear.

The most convincing argument I've heard is that some black Aggies believe Sully would never have allowed them to attend Texas A&M or even allow them to walk across campus. If true, it follows that the statue should not be the focal point of the University.

You can see the problem with that argument. You can't refute, i.e., 100% disprove, the statement. You can only read the historical record then extrapolate the philosophical implications. And that extrapolation will be undoubtedly skewed by the bias of both the historical record as well as the person interpreting that history.

If it can be demonstrated that Sully was a white supremacist and actively fought against black people attending Texas A&M, then the statue should go. But serving in the CSA doesn't automatically prove this assertion. And to my knowledge, Sully's historical record indicates he fought for the rights of blacks to pursue higher education, albeit separate from whites. But Texas didn't fully desegregate its schools unit the 1970s so Sully couldn't reasonably be expected to conquer that horrible injustice during his lifetime (1838-1898).

So the problem statement provided above can be rebutted but not fully refuted. And if there are other issues or concerns I'm willing to listen, assuming the argument is being made in good faith.

REAL BAD '93

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Got to say that's as well put as anything I've read on the subject.

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I agree. Well stated.

We were originally called the Scott Volunteers after Col. Scott who worked on campus. We became the Ross Volunteers after Sully died in 1898. We all know Sully is important but hopefully, despite this, the Ross Volunteers will remain a value focused organization which represents the University and State with distinction.

Quote:

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Here's the issue in a nutshell (and it has little to do with Sully).

As the demographics of Texas have changed, and the university has embraced diversity to serve the people of Texas, we have a lot of students on campus (and now former students, too) who don't see anything at A&M that is "theirs."

Most minority students embrace A&M, but in today's world, there is great social value in resisting that type of assimilation. And if you've been taught to look at life through the lens of race, then Aggie traditions, culture, environment -- heck, just about everything about the place -- are "white." And lame. Or in today's language, problematic.

So some resist and agitate. And they are encouraged to do so by a lot of professors and administrators who feel the same way. And of course, by the vast majority of white students who are terrified of not being seen as an ally.

Sully is just an easy target for students who aren't comfortable at A&M. That's why his removal would have no impact. After Sully is gone, they would still feel uncomfortable and would still be unhappy.

The only way to fix this issue is for A&M to increase its support of new cultural traditions that these students recognize, relate to and can embrace. That's how you make A&M more inclusive.

I don't know how to do that, but this type of student isn't going away. They either need to be channeled into something productive or they will continue to push for the destruction of existing traditions and culture.

Edited to add: A&M also needs to do a better job of getting more minority students to Fish Camp where they can have the opportunity to learn about and embrace traditions BEFORE they get to campus. I know FC has a bad rep among many on TexAgs, but it's the best way to help people feel comfortable about their A&M experience.

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Truth!

SouthTex99 said:

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Bird93 said:

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I'm a former RV, and I'm pro statue because presentism is dangerous, canceling history is dangerous, selective condemnation is dangerous, pandering is dangerous, etc, etc, etc. The ideals of being a soldier, statesman, and knightly gentleman are the very foundation of what it means to be an Aggie. The Ross Volunteers represent and embody those ideals.

That said, my life will not be ruined, nor will my love for A&M be negated if the statue is removed. I think there may be those who are truly impacted by it, and I want to be empathetic. But there are also those who only seek to sow discord. They are dangerous and need to be addressed.

I love all people, especially all Aggies; and I don't pretend to have the answers for the LSR statue dilemma. If I thought for a second that getting rid of the statue would create unity, I would be an advocate to do so. But I think it's just the tip of the iceberg for what the agitators hope to accomplish. It makes me sad.

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Agree 100% with this. Love all of my Corps experiences with and around Sully. I never unpacked his baggage, just tried then as I try now to live out those values...Soldier, Statesman, Knightly Gentleman. I often fall short but will keep trying whether there's a statue there or not.

RV Meatball '99

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You outed yourself as a Meatball. Haha.

Squat '83

I poached this video from another thread. It probably deserves its own thread but I'll put it here. Don't quit on it after the first 2 minutes; At the end, he makes some very valid points.

I would agree that if the LSR statue was there as part of the Lost Cause movement, I would have little problems seeing it moved. However, it is not there glorifying his role in the confederacy. He is there, dressed in civilian attire, to honor the roll he had in keeping Texas A&M alive and open. He made amazing gains for poor people and minorities In public education. Today we label that progress as segregation. However, those ideas were ahead of his time judging him by the lens of his day.

I would agree to have the statue moved if it would solve race relations and socioeconomic inequalities. No one has been able to give me a valid explanation how that would work. Furthermore, when the statue is gone and the tradition with it, the people who feel repressed will have to find some new source for their misery as they realize nothing has changed. Nothing will change until the real problems are addressed.

According to the administrators, I am a minority. But in the Corps, I was a fish just like everyone else with all the same "privileges". When I carried the guidon my sophomore year, it wasn't some sort of affirmative action that required a propionate number of Hispanics be in that position. I earned it and I earned my gold and white cord my junior year. Did I at times have racist comments thrown my way? Yes. But I'm man enough to turn the other check and let my character, not my skin color, speak for itself.

Our university, and our nation, is under attack by a mob that would see all its symbols, institutions, and traditions burned to the ground. We don't get another chance at another A&M and we don't get another chance at forming a more perfect union. What we have is special and unique. We do need to find solutions to the problems that plague certain segments and communities. But we don't need to do it by the fruitless gestures of ripping down statues. This university needs to decide if it is going to lead or follow. Following is taking the path of the lemming mob to destruction as it seeks an unattainable utopia. Leading is standing strong on the foundation that has been laid for us and finding real solutions as opposed to empty signaling.

Real Bad '95. ....BTW, everyone knows Trees are genetically superior!

Fido you are my mystery brother.

Real Bad'95!!
4x4

Attention: thread derail but can't PM

Seen several people with username of FIDO and year - is there a meaning to it? Not trying to doxx you so if it would reveal something traceable I understand.

Old RV Ag said:

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Attention: thread derail but can't PM

Seen several people with username of FIDO and year - is there a meaning to it? Not trying to doxx you so if it would reveal something traceable I understand.

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Only people from my outfit can know that word.

Damn skippy!

FIDO 08! Whoop!

FIDO95 said:

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Old RV Ag said:

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Attention: thread derail but can't PM

Seen several people with username of FIDO and year - is there a meaning to it? Not trying to doxx you so if it would reveal something traceable I understand.

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Only people from my outfit can know that word.

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Gotcha - I know which outfit that is. I won't put it out there.

Swarely said:

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Damn skippy!

FIDO 08! Whoop!

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Shoot it

Eventually the athletic department will make a request. to the administrators of the University to quietly removed the statue.

There will be coaches at other schools pointing out to recruits that TAMU has a statue of a
confederate general in the center of their campus.

There might be some recruits who will not even consider A&M. there might be other recruit whose parents will not want them to go to Aggieland.

MidTnAg said:

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Eventually the athletic department will make a request. to the administrators of the University to quietly removed the statue.

There will be coaches at other schools pointing out to recruits that TAMU has a statue of a
confederate general in the center of their campus.

There might be some recruits who will not even consider A&M. there might be other recruit whose parents will not want them to go to Aggieland.

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Then they aren't a good fit for A&M

Malibu said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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Malibu said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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Bird93 said:

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I'm a former RV, and I'm pro statue because presentism is dangerous, canceling history is dangerous, selective condemnation is dangerous, pandering is dangerous, etc, etc, etc. The ideals of being a soldier, statesman, and knightly gentleman are the very foundation of what it means to be an Aggie. The Ross Volunteers represent and embody those ideals.

That said, my life will not be ruined, nor will my love for A&M be negated if the statue is removed. I think there may be those who are truly impacted by it, and I want to be empathetic. But there are also those who only seek to sow discord. They are dangerous and need to be addressed.

I love all people, especially all Aggies; and I don't pretend to have the answers for the LSR statue dilemma. If I thought for a second that getting rid of the statue would create unity, I would be an advocate to do so. But I think it's just the tip of the iceberg for what the agitators hope to accomplish. It makes me sad.

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How so

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I think for some, the words "CSA" automatically nullify a life being honored with public symbolism, regardless of the merit of the post CSA life. I dont fault either side in this debate. I think these are tough questions that dont have convenient easy answers.

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Forming the basis of a negative opinion is not "truly impacting" someone

How do those 3 letters, CSA, "truly impact" someone?

Be specific

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The CSA fought for, amongst other things, upholding slavery. Sully fought for the CSA. Sully is honored as a symbol of Aggieland's Soldier, Statesman, and Knightly Gentleman. His particular soldierism as identified on his plaque is linked to the aformentioned fight to preserve slavery. You dont see how that public recognition of his cause would be alarming to some black students who may think that honoring that version of soldier negates their very personhood?

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Yep.......every soldier who fought for the CSA was a hardcore believer in slavery and risked life and limb to keep that small percentage of southerners supplied with them. I have little doubt that if asked, my sharecropper great great grandfather would have proudly stated that he lost his arm just so the rich landowners could have slaves.