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Third, Joseph Smith observed that John 4:24 is one of the mistranslations of the Bible. Accordingly, he corrected this scripture to read in conformity with its original language: "For unto such hath God promised his Spirit" (JST John 4:26).

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You are always good for a laugh....In case you've forgotten, Joseph's rambling about errors in translations hold no water with Christians.

It is also interesting that mormons used to believe that God the Father was a spirit.

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In the fifth lecture we find this statement about the Godhead: "... the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness, the Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle... "(Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 ed., p.53).

The Lectures on Faith not only taught that God the Father is a "personage of Spirit," but also that God is "omnipresent"—i.e., present everywhere at the same time (Ibid., pp.12, 26).

Joseph Fielding Smith admitted that Joseph Smith helped prepare these lectures: "Now the Prophet did know something about these Lectures on Faith, because he helped to prepare them, and he helped also to revise these lectures before they were published ..." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.195).

These Lectures on Faith were printed in all of the early editions of the Doctrine and Covenants, but in 1921 they were completely removed and have not appeared in subsequent editions. John William Fitzgerald, who wrote his thesis at BYU, asked Joseph Fielding Smith why they were removed from the Doctrine and Covenants. One of the reasons given was that they were not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. Actually, these lectures were considered complete with regard to their teachings concerning the Godhead at the time they were given. On page 58 of the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants the following question and answer appear: "Q. Does the foregoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation? A. It does."

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One of the most confusing areas of Mormon theology is that area dealing with the Holy Ghost. In the Lectures on Faith, published in the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835, it was declared that there were only two personages in the Godhead—the Father and the Son—and that the Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father and the Son:

There are two personages ... the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father a personage of tabernacle, ... called the Son because of the flesh ... possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, ...

Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
A. Two: the Father and the Son.
Q. How do you prove that there are two personages in the Godhead?
A. By the Scriptures....
Q. Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?
A. They do....
Q. What is this mind?
A. The Holy Spirit.
Q. Do the Father, Son and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead?
A. They do....
Q. Does the foregoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation?
A. It does (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 ed., pp.52, 53, 55, 57, 58; removed from modern editions).

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http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech7.htm

[This message has been edited by RAB91 (edited 9/26/2007 12:53p).]

Rab -Answered that for you before. You should go on LDS.org and select "scriptures" and read Joseph's inspired translation of the Bible. Does it ever make so much more sense.

Genesisag - You need to prove your point of the "Inevitable Apostasy and Promised Restoration" before most of us will accept Joseph Smith's "corrections" to scripture. Using it as part of your argument is putting the cart before the horse.

jkag89 -I throw some of it in so that along the way it can be seen that Joseph's work is in great harmony with the scriptures.

It is your attempt to prove to us Gentiles where orthodox Christianity has lost its way so you can go where you choose, but in my opinion you are just muddling your argument. You are adding unnecessary bricks to your structure while leaving out more important elements that would enhance its strength.

jkag89 -you have a point, but as I detail the "inevitable apostasy", it is hard to totally ignore the Prophet of the "Promised Restoration". As this completely unfolds, I think you will see why. But, I appreciate your comments.

Sometime ago, I made the statement that until we understand our premortal existence, we will never understand the fall of Adam or be able to fully understand and appreciate the great Atonement of Jesus Christ on our behalf. Because of its importance, I will endeavor to give this subject the attention it deserves.

I have always wondered why most Christian Churches believe that Christ existed as a spirit before his mortal birth as well as the angels, and that Satan was a premortal being, but for some reason they do not believe that the spirits of mortals existed during this premortal realm. Rather, they believe that each man's spirit is created at his mortal birth. Unfortunately, the doctrine of a premortal existence for man was banned, as we shall see, by the ongoing church. The scriptures and some early Christian writers, however, teach the contrary!

When speaking to Jeremiah, the Lord clearly taught the doctrine that man existed before his birth: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest out of the womb I sanctified thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1:5) Obviously Jeremiah had to have lived prior to his birth if the Lord both knew him and ordained him before he was in his mother's womb. This is also consistent with writings of Paul, which state, "For whom he did foreknow (or knew before birth), he also did predestinate (foreordain)" (Romans 8:29), and Paul's further writings to Timothy, noting that God "hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling...before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9). The disciples also knew that there was a premortal life, as evidenced by their question concerning the man who "was blind from birth". They asked: "Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:1-2). Why would the apostles have asked if premortal sin was the cause of his blindness at birth unless he existed in some capacity before mortality and, in addition, had the capacity to sin in such pre-earth life? And why did not the Saviour immediately correct them for having a false misconception that there was such a thing as a premortal existence if it were incorrect?

The book of Ecclesiastes gives insight into the form in which we existed in our premortal life: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). Certainly our spirits could not "return" to God at the moment of our death unless they had previously been there prior to our Mortal birth, any more than a man can return to a place from whence he has never been. The Saviour taught the same doctrine: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven" (John 3:13).

Our spirits resided in the presence of God, as his sons and daughters, before our mortal birth. As Paul observed: "We are also his offspring" (Acts 17:28), meaning his spirit children. He further referred to our divine heritage when he said, "We had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of our spirits, and live?" (Heb. 12:9). In premortal life God was the father of our spirits. We were part of his family, as noted by Paul: "Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Eph. 3:15). In his fathering role, God nurtured and trained and prepared us for mortality. It was revealed to President Joseph F. Smith that "even before they (the noble and great ones) were born, they, with many other, received their first lessons in the world of spirits". William Wordsworth, the great poet, must have glimpsed this heavenly home when he wrote:

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The soul that rises with us, our life's star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar;
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home."

In this primeval setting, John the Revelator said, there was a "war in heaven" (Rev. 12:7). Satan and a "third part of the stars of heaven," Symbolizing God's spirit children, were "cast ... To the earth" (Rev. 12:4). Jude made mention of those "angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation" (Jude 1:6), referring to their fall from heaven. Isaiah likewise saw the fall of Lucifer, for he said, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" Then he explained why such a fall occurred: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God " (Isa. 14:12-13). However, two-thirds of those "stars of God" (God's spirit children) did not follow Satan and his minions. Job declared that when the foundation of the earth was being laid "the morning stars sang together, and all of the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:4,7). Those morning stars and sons of God were the two-thirds of God's spirit children who followed the Saviour. They had faith in him, they trusted him, and now they shouted for joy for the opportunity to enter their "second estate" - that of mortality.

Some people have become confused in thinking that angels of heaven, as referred to in the scriptures, are different from the children of God who are sent to earth. But Clement of Rome (20-10 AD), in his epistle to the Corinthians, helps us understand that they are one and the same: "When the Most High divided the nation, when He dispersed the sons of Adam, He fixed the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the angels of God" (meaning the people who would constitute the nations of the earth). Moses made it clear that the phrase "angels of God" (as referred to by Clement above) meant those mortals who would become the house of Israel, equating the angels of heaven with certain premortal spirits. He stated that God "set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel" (Deut. 32:8). As to those premortal spirits who would inhabit he earth, Paul taught that God "hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation" (Acts 17:26). In other words, God knows both the date and place of our mortal birth, predicated in huge measure upon our life in the premortal existence.

Next, we will examine what the early Christian writers spoke concerning a premortal life and then the banning of this doctrine by the ongoing church.

[This message has been edited by Genesisag (edited 10/1/2007 11:37p).]

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Next

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Next, next, next....

When are you going to wrap it up?

Seamaster -are you reading these closely enough to be able to take in the whole picture?

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Seamaster -are you reading these closely enough to be able to take in the whole picture?

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It would have been a whole lot easier to see the whole picture except you decided to spread this out over two months.

jkag89 -unfortunately there were events that I did not foresee that made a big difference.

I want this closer to the top so that some of you might have a more easy reference on this subject.

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Using it as part of your argument is putting the cart before the horse.

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Or, if you are a Mormon on a religion & Philosophy board, it's like putting descartes before the tapir.