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amuse him in their struggles and eventually praise and "glorify" Him for eternity (the ones who don't go to a lake of burning fire) with endless "hosanahs" and harp playing. The sad reality is you know of no real reason to go to heaven other than to avoid a "lake of fire". That is negative motivation.

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Respectfully, you completely misunderstand. I suppose it is easy to discount someone else's view if you grossly distort it to begin with!

You sorely underestimate the glory of the Lord and what it will mean to be with Him.

You think that you would rather be engaged in endless procreation with your wives, making spirit babies? You call that high expectations??

I call that vain and vulgar expectations.

Your religion distorts the true reason for Satan's fall. He fell because he tried to make himself God's equal. He wanted to be "like the Most High."

Clearly, and tragically, the father of lies has convinced you to seek the same thing that resulted in his own ejection from heaven.

The glory is God's - not ours. Seek community with Him, not equality with Him.

We were MADE for community with Him. There will be nothing more fulfilling for us than to spend eternity WITH Him.

89 -Of course they do. All of the different ministers who have prayed over the scriptures, I am sure, have done. But they all came up with different interpretations. Look at the Catholics and the Protestants "duking" it out for centuries. Look as the different sects within the Protestant churches also "duke" it out. When one has studied the Book of Mormon, prayerfully and with a sincere desire to know if it is true (not, if it is "not" true), and ask God the Father (not Jesus) in the name of Jesus Christ, then you can receive your witness of the Holy Ghost.

Prayers should never be "rote" except when so prescribed i.e. sacrament. Prayer represents the soul's sincere desire.

IBMAGG

Whoop2p -OK! You got me! I have tried to disquise it as long as I could. What gave me away?

PS -are you going to get as cold as we are here in Dallas?

ibm-

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Of course they do. All of the different ministers who have prayed over the scriptures, I am sure, have done. But they all came up with different interpretations.

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And Joseph Smith's is just one more.

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When one has studied the Book of Mormon, prayerfully and with a sincere desire to know if it is true (not, if it is "not" true), and ask God the Father (not Jesus) in the name of Jesus Christ, then you can receive your witness of the Holy Ghost.

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So why hasn't God at least led me to the BOM in response to my prayer?

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Prayers should never be "rote" except when so prescribed i.e. sacrament. Prayer represents the soul's sincere desire.

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The Prayer of St. Clare does expresse my sincere desire and she says it far more eloquently than I ever could.

FTA -I think I see a major problem that you have. You probably feel that sexual intimitacy with your wife is dirty or vulgar. Someone else will have to work withyou on that. Do you have children and if you do, do you not find them the most rewarding aspect of your union with your spouse, look after the "moment" has passed. It will be interesting to see if the union between sposes is the same as here on earth. Since the Celestial law is always on a higher level that the telestial law it will be most interesting to find. Just as we know the glorifed, resurrected body of Jesus could pass through the walls when he appeared to the apostles, we know that this "new"body had contol ofer the physical elements that his mortal body did not. That being said it will be just as wonderfulfulfilling and meaning than anything that could be experienced in mortality. "Creating' has more to do with than just creating offspring. There will be worlds, starts, ect. We will be busy.

But all of this being said, tell me what you think the "glory of the Lord" is and what it means to be with him. Give as much detail as you can.

Now do you think that the ability to associate with our loved ones, i.e parents, siblings, grandparents, friends, etc. forever is a vulgar and vain ambition? Do you think that to have an ongoing relationship with our Heavenly Father, and with our Saviour for the eternities is a vulgar and vain ambition. Do you think our heavenly parents will be thrilled with those of us who will have overcome all things and endured to the end?

Has it ever occurred to you that your admittedly uninspired ministers or priests could have gotten it wrong in their interpretation of the scriptures? Remember, all of you believe that "revelation" ceased after Jesus left. You say that we have distorted the real reason for Satan's fall. You claim it was because he wanted to be like God. I am glad your father didn't kick you out of the house when he figured out you wanted to be like him when you grew up. By this logic Christ should never be able to be like His Father, because he gained an heirship and then we have the chance to be joint-heirs with Him.

The LDS explanation of the fall is consistent not only with scripture but gives the only plausible explanation for the fall of Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden, without making God look like he was incompetent or uncaring. If you want I can go into an explanation of this on another thread. But, I will tell you this, "Adam fell the men might be and men are that they might have joy"!

IBMAGG

89 -The lord is not interested in the eloquence of another as it applies to you. He knows you personally and loves you. That is why it must be a prayer from you, expressing what you want. The Lord has given us the true order of prayer. I will share it with you a little later this day as I need to try to get my weight workout in before the roads really begin to ice over.

Joseph Smith's response was different that all of the other. God the Father and Jesus Christ personally appeared to him. I know of no other leading religionist who has claimed such a metaphysical interaction. There was a reson for Joseph's but it was still "different" that anyone elses has ever been.

And as to being led...who knows, we are talking aren't we?

IBMAGG

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I think I see a major problem that you have. You probably feel that sexual intimitacy with your wife is dirty or vulgar.

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You are one sick puppy. I won't even dignify that sort of venemous trash with a response.

What you fail to understand is that marital sexual intimacy, while beautiful in our fallen world, would be meaningless in comparison to the joy of being with our Father in heaven.

I will have eternal interaction with my earthly family in heaven. I do not need some sort of pagan Mormon ritual in order to make that happen.

You are bound up with an earthly perspective. Joe's religion has included Joe's penchant for sex with multiple partners and for power and control.

I am done with you. Your highly offensive remark above betrayed for all time the twisted nature of your thoughts. You are indeed a ravening wolf seeking to devour the saints. I will continue to pray for you, but I fear your rebellion from God has gone too far and that you will never hear the call of your Father to return to Him.

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The lord is not interested in the eloquence of another as it applies to you. He knows you personally and loves you. That is why it must be a prayer from you, expressing what you want. The Lord has given us the true order of prayer.

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So you never recite the Lord's Prayer? The Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings only new hymns every time during services?

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God the Father and Jesus Christ personally appeared to him. I know of no other leading religionists who has claimed such a metaphysical interaction.

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Saint Teresa of Avila
Saint John of the Cross
Saint Catherine of Siena
Padre Pio
Saint Faustina Kowalska

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And as to being led...who knows, we are talking aren't we?

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Posted by me at 2:04a, 1/10/2007 on Mormon Definitions not same as Christian definitions

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Now if you are saying I've haven't really studied the "full" Gospel as revealed to Joseph Smith, you are correct sir, and since you started posting here I'm even less likely to than I was ever before.

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FTA -Where did you ever get the idea we have to "chose" between being with our Father in Heaven and having an eternal relationship with our wife?

You may think you will have an eternal relationship with your family but that concept was not preached for many centuries and still is not in most, if not all churches. Tell me what you think the nature of that relationship will be. Will you "hang out" together, do something exciting together, but what. Before Joseph explained the eternal nature of families, the religious dogma was simply that angels in heaven were just that - angels.

I knew you would not address what it meant to be with the Lord or what the "Glory of the Lord" is. You really don't have a clue. But you are not alone. There are many, many who mouth these words that have no real understanding of what they are talking about.

It is obvious you know really nothing of the sealing ordinances of the House of the lord, or you would never refer to them as "pagan" rituals. But, whatever.

Our perspective is one of the eternities. Joseph learned more from gazing into the heavens and what the significance was thereof, than all the books ever written on the subject. This life is the time we prepare to meet God, but, hang on to your uninspired priests and ministers and you will eventually see where that will lead you. The expression blinded by the cunning and craftiness of man" certainly comes to mind as the Lord declared that to Joseph in his description of the inhabitants of the earth.

I appreciate your well meaning prayers on my behalf. But since rebellion from God is the last thing any Latter-day Saint is involved in, you can rest your fears. We understand better than any one that obedience is the first law in heaven!

I would have been more impressed with your argument if you would have addressed the scriptures that were sited and the questions that I asked you, as opposed to an emotional rant. Simple questions like where did you come from; why are you here,; where are you going? Bottom line, what is the real purpose of this earth life? Good luck!





IBMAGG

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 1/13/2007 4:24p).]

89 -I am afraid that excuse will never hold up. If the claim that is made by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint that God and Jesus Christ have once again spoken to man, restored the Church as it was anciently, with all of the priestshood authoity, all of the spiritual girts of old, and has living apostles and prophets on the earth, I would want to know that first hand. By first hand I do not mean reading about it on anti-LDS websites or hearing others describe the Church or its doctrine. I would want to know for myself, personally, for if the message is true, it would be the greatest message to come to the earth since the resurrection itself. If not, then it could easily be dismissed and recoginized for the fraud and evil work that it is. But is takes real effort on a person's part. No one can talk you into the Lord's Church nor will he compel any man into heaven.

When speaking to the Saints in Russia, Presiden Hinckley reminded them and all of us to "believe in Jesus Christ... He is the Son of God who came to earth, who left the royal courts on high, and came and dwelt among men, and gave His life for each of us, for you and me. It is through Him that we approach the Father. Be not faithless, but believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and the Redeemer of the world.

At Christmas time we were reminded that "(Christ) born in a manger, He came to the earth under the humblest of circumstances. The Son of the Almighty became the Saviour of all mankind...He walked the roads of palestine working miracles. He healed the sick, He brought sight to the blind, He raised the dead. He blessed the little children and condemnedany who should offend them.

He left his mark upon the world, which can never be erased or diminished. Concluding that brief life was the agony of Gethsemane, and the terrible suffering of Golgotha, to be followed by the glory of the Resurrection. No other had ever done before what he did. He rose from the grave, and through His great act of Atonement came salvation for all men. Our eternal lives are in His hands, and our eternal progress lies in obedience to his teachings.

That last statement really sums it up.

PS -what did the people you named do with their "personal" witness of the the Father and the Son?

IBMAGG

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 1/13/2007 4:50p).]

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By first hand I do not mean reading about it on anti-LDS websites...

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Don't read them and never have. I figured they are about as fair as those that tend to misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church.

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...or hearing others describe the Church or its doctrine.

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Have read what has been posted here but have also read the responses by you, Cold Steel, & Liam to those criticisms.

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If not, then it could easily be dismissed and recognized for the fraud and evil work that it is.

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Bingo! Unless you or some missionary gives me a compelling reason to look further, it has already been proven a fraud in my mind. Why waste my time? You believe that orthodox Christianity is wrong and as far as I can tell you have done nothing to really explore its many aspects except on a superficial level that fits neatly into your preconceived notions.

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But is takes real effort on a person's part. No one can talk you into the Lord's Church nor will he compel any man into heaven.

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Disagree. Too many members of the Communion of Saints ran away from God for much of their lives only to be converted with little effort on their part; St. Augustine, Saint Francis of Assisi, Dorothy Day, etc.

The Hound of Heaven
By Francis Thompson
http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~gbrandal/Illum_html/hound.html

This is a rather strange poem on the face of it but it sums up nicely the Catholic view.

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The name is strange. It startles one at first. It is so bold, so new, so fearless. It does not attract, rather the reverse. But when one reads the poem this strangeness disappears. The meaning is understood. As the hound follows the hare, never ceasing in its running, ever drawing nearer in the chase, with unhurrying and impertubed pace, so does God follow the fleeing soul by His Divine grace. And though in sin or in human love, away from God it seeks to hide itself, Divine grace follows after, unwearyingly follows ever after, till the soul feels its pressure forcing it to turn to Him alone in that never ending pursuit. - The Neuman Press "Book of Verse"

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The rest of your post sounds, well, orthodox in thought. Maybe Mormons are not too far from the "hound" chasing them down.

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PS -what did the people you named do with their "personal" witness of the the Father and the Son?

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Unfortunately I have experienced a short power outage and I have lost my original response. I hope what is above recreates at least in essences that post. However I'm no longer in the mood to redo the short bios I had done for some of the men & women I listed previously. If you are really interested these are not obscure figures and a simple Google search should give you any information you may want.

[This message has been edited by jkag89 (edited 1/13/2007 8:35p).]

ibm, do you think the personal ugliness you have displayed in this thread really suits you?

I don't think I have ever seen you self-evaluate here. Perhaps now would be a good time to start.

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FTA -I think I see a major problem that you have. You probably feel that sexual intimitacy with your wife is dirty or vulgar.

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Once again, true colors are shining through. 'ibm: the most effective anti-mormon poster on the board - only he doesn't know it '.

No Rab, you and several other's colors are shinning through. FTA said that the thought of making spirit babies was vulgar. I assumed he also thought the same in this life. The act of procreation between husband and wife should never be "vulgar" unless they engage in vulgar and unclean practices.

PS -I notice that as usual you have little or nothing to add to the subject of the tread!

IBMAGG

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 1/14/2007 12:54a).]

Nothing like kicking back and having an ice cold beer with your mormon buddies while discussing religion.

ibmagg:

why do you care so much about what happens in the afterlife? why not just let God take care of that, and focus on the present. Christ had just a few commandments for us: love the Lord God will all our mind, soul, and strength; and love our neighbor as ourself. Nothing more. We then tell this truth to those around us and help them in their relationship with Christ.

Even on earth, marraige isn't important, especially now that the world is populated and getting over-taxed. there are enough people to share Christ with in the world now. Even Paul stated that he hoped we would be like him and not marry, but rather spend all our time sharing the Gospel.

Matthew 22:23-29:

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23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

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Doesn't sound like marraige and making babies is all that important to Jesus when we get to heaven. I agree with FTA. Satan has tempted you in the same manner he tempted Jesus on the mount: to be God.

God created us, our souls included. God is infinite; the most we would ever be (God-willing) is semi-infinite, from creation to eternity, but not before.

God is the ultimate asymptote. Christ wants us to be like him, and approach that infinite line, but we will never acheive it, even into eternity. And the moment we think we reach it, and start to focus in reaching God-status, we immediately fall away like Satan.

We approach God's likeness by focusing on Him, not on ourselves and the power He may grant us.

It's like all those companies that become public on the stock market and focus on making money rather than a good product; they fail at both and go bankrupt.

Joseph Smith felt he deserved more than just eternal life in the presence of God - he wanted to be just like God. Satan appeared to him in the likeness of God and Jesus (whatever that looks like, since Joe didn't know what God looks like), and gave him new books contrary to God's written word.

What was the motivation, ibm?

Seriously, if "eternal progression" and the Mormon "plan of salvation" and "premortal life" and "Satan as Jesus' younger brother" - if all this nonsense was true, then Jesus would have talked about it. Not only Jesus would have talked about it, but also Paul and Peter would have expounded on it. It would have been clear. It would not have waited until Joe Jr. wrote the PofGP and the D&C.

I know the response......plain and precious truths lost, yada yada.

Which takes me back to my question: What was the motivation?

If Father's plan is for us to all be gods, why would anyone want to hide that particular fact?

If Lucifer really was Jesus' brother, why would anyone want to hide that particular fact?

If we lived as "spirit children" in a "preexistence," why would anyone want to hide that particular fact?

If Hebrew prophets spoke of a future prophet named Joseph, why would anyone want to hide that particular fact?

It makes no sense.

It also makes no sense that a record of such additional teachings could be completely wiped out. It would be the greatest, most elaborate and most unlikely cover-up in human history. Given the practical impossibility of such a cover-up, again, what could possibly motivate it to begin with? Makes no sense.

Here's what does make sense: if you start a religion that adds a bunch of nonsense on to the Bible, you have to come up with some explanation for why your stuff wasn't in the Bible to begin with!

Answers?

[This message has been edited by El Sid (edited 1/14/2007 4:10p).]

Sid & Titan 4, I am going to watch some football and will answer your questions in detail. One thought though Sid, maybe they wanted to keep it secret the way you want to keep your identity secret i.e. no picture. In fact you even put someone else's up.

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One thought though Sid, maybe they wanted to keep it secret the way you want to keep your identity secret i.e. no picture. In fact you even put someone else's up.

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ibmagg, this one is over the top.

There are some fairly valid reasons some people do not want their identities blasted all across the internet.

Not everyone is as nice as I am. There are creeps and cretins out there in internet land. El Sid could become the victim of some creep or cretin sending guys on bicycles overto her home to bombard her with unwanted satanic publications.

As far as the picture is concerned, there is such a thing as a joke. Even someone as far back in the boonies as me knew that was Daniel Peterson, the rather portly, Krispy Kreme fancying apologist for the cult of Mormonism.

I don't think that El Sid expected anyone to actually believe that was his or her picture...at least not anyone with a lick of sense.

titan man....unbelievably accurate right on post! Kudos

Kuwait -the magic word is "courage'. I noticed that others posted their picture. I believe that mostly cowards like to post annomously. They can say anything and never be held accountable for their words. A lot of vitriol would disappear off of the internet if pictures and names were required.

IBMAGG

so what is your point? You are brave?

Congrats

Titan -I am so glad that you and Fahraint are so much in the same camp. Only a fool would not give much, much thought to the eternities. As you will have less than a 100 years in mortality but an immeasurable amount of time in the next life and what you do in this life will determine where you will spend all that time, well...you might want to give it a lot of thought also. The two Great Commandments encompass the Ten Commandments and much more. You will not get "credit" for worshipping the kind of Christ that does not and has never existed! And the scriptures tells us that it is "Life Eternal" to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast ssent. You mean well, but you miss the mark by far!

Your biggest problem is that you know neither where you came from or why you are here, much less where you are going. Because you fail to understand your beginnings, you have a false impression as to why you are here and your post demonstrates it conclusively!

It may have escaped your attention, that of all the titles God has, the one he prefers the most is FATHER. I wonder why? You talk about your "relationship" with Christ and you don't even know who He is nor what He has really done for you. You just want to slide by with cheap, lip service and think that all of the suffering that the Saviour did, is going to rescue you without any real effort on your part. But then, you don't have a clue what you are going to do in the next life other than some insipid view of "glorifying God" (try to explaining that term). What kind of God would "create" creatures that would endure many trials and suffering, with the vast majority going to Hell, as they won't make the cut, and then God having to spend the eternities having to listen to their endless "glorifying." Not a very uplifting view, but you can not explain or offer up any other alternative.

I am amazed that you do not think marriage or fatherhood is that important. You refer to the Apostle paul who condemned the practice of celibacy by stating that it "consists in giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. Paul was married and of there there is no question. We know that he was a widower and also know that some of his expressions on arriage have come to us in a perverted or changed form. I don't think you have heard or read anywhere where God's commandment to muliply and replenish the earth has been rescinded!

The verses you quotd about marriage in the next life was in answer to the Sadducces and Pharisees who were trying to trap Him on the subject of life after death. The Sadduccess did not believe in life after death and Christ's remark were directed to them, because for them there would be none of them married or given in marriage in the nest life. They, because of their unbelief would never have that privelege! I get the idea you are not married or have children, otherwise it would not be so easy to think you would find it easy or wothwhile to give them up for an eternity of endless "glorifying". Of course that doe beat a burning in an endless lake of fire.

Again, I notice you could not address the topic of this thread, that not only is there more than one God but that is our eternal "potential".

IBMAGG

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 1/14/2007 10:18p).]

ibmagg, yawn.

Hieroglyphs = BOA = mormonism disproved. JS, false prophet, ibmagg deluded, and leading his family in the deception. Shake off the evil one, take off the blinders

Fahraint -You should really and carefully consider following your own advice! I see you also didn't really want to address the subject of the thread. No surprise

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I see you also didn't really want to address the subject of the thread. No surprise

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So sorry, but not really. How about this......Mormons teach that men can become equal to God. I say bogus....what say you?

Whoa whoa whoa. Wait just a minute.

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They, because of their unbelief would never have that privelege! I get the idea you are not married or have children, otherwise it would not be so easy to think you would find it easy or wothwhile to give them up for an eternity of endless "glorifying".

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Are you suggesting that celestial sex, making spirit babies, family reunions in heaven, ANYTHING.....takes precedence over the glorigication of God?

It sure sounded like it to me.

Fahraint -Lie! Man can become a God. Our Eternal Father in Heaven will always preside. Clear enough?

Kuwait -Please tell me what you think "glorigication" means to you. Will you be one of those just singing or will you be playing a musical instrument.

We know that if we qualify to have our own offspring in the next Life (remember the children we provide mortal tabernacles for, are really our Father in Heaven's spiritual offspring), that continues to "glorify" Him as His influence and posterity continues to have a never ending increase.

IBMAGG

ibm

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Paul was married and of there there is no question. We know that he was a widower...

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How do you know St. Paul was a widower? Is the basis of this claim found in the Bible or is this another revelation made to one of the prophets of the LDS.

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...and also know that some of his expressions on marriage have come to us in a perverted or changed form.

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Must be nice to have this as a fall back position when something in scripture contradicts LDS teachings.

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I see you also didn't really want to address the subject of the thread. No surprise.

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I find this chastisement quite humorous since you regularly go off on tangents that are not part of the original subject matter.

Sid -OK, it is your turn. There are many things Jesus talked about that are not in the scriptures because we know about all of the Books in the Bible that are mentioned and not found. That being said consider these things. Although others outside of our faith have a hard time believing this doctrine, we know that Hitler, Judas Iscariot, and others are our brothers as is Satan also, and all of us are brothers of Jesus. I prefer to focus on Jesus but this does not negate the fact that Satan too once lived with us in heaven. What scripture might give us our first clue?

"How art thou fallen from heaven. O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most high.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isa. 14:12-27)

Lucifer fell from heaven. To fall from heaven, you had to be in heaven. Why did he fall from heaven? He had participated with God in developing the plan of salvation for all mankind but hewanted the glory for himself. By the way, the scripture tell us the Lucifer's fall was so great that he heavens wept. Do you know of anyone else that the heavens wept over their fall?

Now, Jesus also was there and participated but he wanted to give the glory to God the Father. Jesus was chosen and Satan rebelled and took one third of the hosts of heaven with him. The one third that followed Satan is now on this earth tempting us and trying to lead us astray. The other 2/3 are you and I and all the others that have been born and will be born on this earth.

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18-20)

And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:7-12)

Now understand Sid, to not be found "any more" in heaven means he was once in heaven.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them unto chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement." (2 Peter 2:4)

These "angels" were the 1/3 of our brothers and sisters that followed Satan and not Jesus.

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day." (Jude 6)

"And the unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God." (Mark 3:11-12)

These unclean spirits knew Jesus because they were with him in heaven before they were cast out with Satan. There is not one scripture in the Bible that says Satan is not Jesus' brother, yet there are numerous that say he is. This list does not include all the other wonderful verses n the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

I will address tomorow your other questions.

IBMAGG

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Titan -I am so glad that you and Fahraint are so much in the same camp. Only a fool would not give much, much thought to the eternities. As you will have less than a 100 years in mortality but an immeasurable amount of time in the next life and what you do in this life will determine where you will spend all that time, well...you might want to give it a lot of thought also. The two Great Commandments encompass the Ten Commandments and much more. You will not get "credit" for worshipping the kind of Christ that does not and has never existed! And the scriptures tells us that it is "Life Eternal" to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast ssent. You mean well, but you miss the mark by far!

Your biggest problem is that you know neither where you came from or why you are here, much less where you are going. Because you fail to understand your beginnings, you have a false impression as to why you are here and your post demonstrates it conclusively!

It may have escaped your attention, that of all the titles God has, the one he prefers the most is FATHER. I wonder why? You talk about your "relationship" with Christ and you don't even know who He is nor what He has really done for you. You just want to slide by with cheap, lip service and think that all of the suffering that the Saviour did, is going to rescue you without any real effort on your part. But then, you don't have a clue what you are going to do in the next life other than some insipid view of "glorifying God" (try to explaining that term). What kind of God would "create" creatures that would endure many trials and suffering, with the vast majority going to Hell, as they won't make the cut, and then God having to spend the eternities having to listen to their endless "glorifying." Not a very uplifting view, but you can not explain or offer up any other alternative.

I am amazed that you do not think marriage or fatherhood is that important. You refer to the Apostle paul who condemned the practice of celibacy by stating that it "consists in giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. Paul was married and of there there is no question. We know that he was a widower and also know that some of his expressions on arriage have come to us in a perverted or changed form. I don't think you have heard or read anywhere where God's commandment to muliply and replenish the earth has been rescinded!

The verses you quotd about marriage in the next life was in answer to the Sadducces and Pharisees who were trying to trap Him on the subject of life after death. The Sadduccess did not believe in life after death and Christ's remark were directed to them, because for them there would be none of them married or given in marriage in the nest life. They, because of their unbelief would never have that privelege! I get the idea you are not married or have children, otherwise it would not be so easy to think you would find it easy or wothwhile to give them up for an eternity of endless "glorifying". Of course that doe beat a burning in an endless lake of fire.

Again, I notice you could not address the topic of this thread, that not only is there more than one God but that is our eternal "potential".

IBMAGG

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I've posted like 3 times on this R&P section, and you've learned me enough to call me a fool?

No, I didn't directly address the OP because FTA already stated how I feel on this matter. I expounded on his post by comparing your statements to those of "your brother Satan", which you then presented to El Sid.

No, I'm not going to give much thought to the next life. That time will take care of itself when I get to Heaven and God makes His decision on whether or not to let me in. God will ask why I should get in, and all I can say is

"You shouldn't. I doubted You, I turned away from You, and I wondered in search of You. But I love You, and I tried to know You as best I could, in spite of the questions, the doubts, and the fears. Deep down inside, I know You existed, and I desired to know You. I didn't do enough to please you, or to earn my way in. I had many doubts that got in the way of me sharing my faith, and I wasn't bold enough. Forgive me. Thank you for your Son, who did what I couldn't do and earned my Salvation for me."

And after that moment, I'll wait and let God tell me what to do next. For now, I'll focus on loving God with all my being, and loving my neighbor as myself. I'll work to share the Gospel will all those around me, so they may share in the purpose, the passion, and the life that I have.

If being married and having kids helps me to fulfill those commandments, then so be it. If God has more in store for me, like Paul, then so be it. Loving God, knowing God, and loving others is more than enough to keep my attention.

No, I don't think our purpose in life is to get married and replinish the earth. That's such a simple matter, I don't need to devote my whole life to that. The earth is replinished. It's full. Christ got here just when it was getting packed, and He brought us a new commandment. Replenishing the earth was Adam's and Noah's commandment - that is how they glorified God.

Now we are to replenish the earth with God worshipping believers, children of God, not children of man.

quote:

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Your biggest problem is that you know neither where you came from or why you are here, much less where you are going. Because you fail to understand your beginnings, you have a false impression as to why you are here and your post demonstrates it conclusively!

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I was created by God, in His image (mind, body, spirit), for His glory, to worship Him. Matthew 22:36.

Please, tell me where I'm going, why I'm going there, what I can do to fix that, and why your suggestions have any more relevant to eternity that Christ's words.

quote:

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It may have escaped your attention, that of all the titles God has, the one he prefers the most is FATHER. I wonder why? You talk about your "relationship" with Christ and you don't even know who He is nor what He has really done for you. You just want to slide by with cheap, lip service and think that all of the suffering that the Saviour did, is going to rescue you without any real effort on your part. But then, you don't have a clue what you are going to do in the next life other than some insipid view of "glorifying God" (try to explaining that term). What kind of God would "create" creatures that would endure many trials and suffering, with the vast majority going to Hell, as they won't make the cut, and then God having to spend the eternities having to listen to their endless "glorifying." Not a very uplifting view, but you can not explain or offer up any other alternative.

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Who are you to question my relationship with Christ? I seek to know the Father, through the Son, with help from His Spirit. I talk to God through prayers, and I wait for His words through the Bible and from His Spirit. I seek to do His will, not because I want to earn my way into Heaven, but because I love Him. I know sin separates me from God, and I know I can't complain that God doesn't exist when I'm sinning.

Because I love God, I seek Him, and spend time with Him in prayer and reading His word. And then I learn I'm supposed to love others, and help them, and show them love and kind words, even when I don't want to. So I ask God for help with that, that He will change my heart and my mind and help me to love.

And when people ask about me, and why I love, I share my relationship with God, and that I am free to have that relationship because of what Christ did for me.

That is my "mortal" existance. Nothing more. Anything else (marraige, kids, family, etc) is just a means to the end: knowing & loving God, loving others and making Him known.

Titan4 -I asked you to tell me where you think you came from, why you are here and where you think you are going. Surely you have given some thought to that? Why don't you take a stab at it? I would call anyone a fool who claims he gives no thought to the eternities and just hopes that it will all work out. Particularly when the scriptures admonish us that now is the time to prepare to meet God. Nothing personal; you could have posted here 3 times or 3,000.

You said you were created by God for his "Glory". As I have read others describe all of as base and corrupt, how can God feel "glorified" by that kind of creation. Tell me what being created for his "Glory" means to you. How do "you" glorify God? By what you say or what youdo[? How do you "show" your love?

This is what I will share with you: We know what the Work and Glory of God is this: "To bring to pass the Immortality and Eternal Life of Man." How you conform your life by your actions to make that possible is what will eventually glorify God.

You say you want to do his "will" not because you want to go to heaven but because you love him. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your motivation is not more a desire to stay as far away from Hell as possible, so tell me what you think His "will" is. What are His commandments that you must keep and what happens when you fall short? "If you love me keep my commandments" we are commanded and we are also told that if we don't, then we are liars.

It is good to "seek" but to seek without really "doing" will be futile. Remember, the scriptures also emphasise "doing" the will of our Father, so don't just be drawn to the "concept" of Christ but you must learn who He is and what your "real" relationship is with Him and your Heavenly Father. Until you understand where you "really" came from, you will never be able to understand why you are "really" here and what you must "do". You are not a lucky accident.

IBMAGG

Still no answers to my questions?