Mormons and people of color??????

1,688 Views | 87 Replies | Last: 19 yr ago by ibmagg
Seamaster
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Why does the book of Mormon go to extremes to point out that dark skin is a curse?

2 Nephi 5:21
Moses 7:8-22
Alma 3:6-9
Mormon 5:15

Or have those verses been among those that have been changed?

I know that on June 9, 1978 the LDS officially changed their position on color. Why? I thought The Book of Mormon was perfect?



[This message has been edited by WhoDatNguyen (edited 6/25/2006 9:44a).]

[This message has been edited by WhoDatNguyen (edited 6/25/2006 9:48a).]
ElectricAg1
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The why would be politics I suppose. Do there remove those versus from their book or just not ever teach from them? I suppose there are versus in the Bible that are mostly ignored.
Sink Maggots
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Because of a "revelation" from God that happened in the 60's...
ibmagg
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77 -With your ususal accuracy it was the 1970s.

For your thoughtfull consideration. The change in holding the priesthood came for one reason; it was the Lord's desire. During the law of Moses only Levites could hold the Aaronic Priesthod. Was that prejudice? The Lord, "ye have NOT chose me, but I have chosen you, and ORDAINED you.(John15:16) It is very apparent that the Lord chooses who and when the people can hold the priesthood.

It should be noted this instance of the Lord changing a policy is NOT the only time the Lord has done this. For example, it was ruled that the Saviour and his apostles would NOT go among the gentiles (Matt. 10:5-6, 15-24), the GENTILES were even compared to as DOGS by the Saviour himself (Matt. 15:26) Yet later this ruling was CHANGED and the apostles did go among the gentiles (Matt. 28:19-20), Acts 10:1-48).

Here are other examples, just to name a few, of the Lord changing his policy.

(1) In Gen:17:10-11, God commanded circumcision FOREVER, yet in Acts 15, Gal. 5:2-3 He later revokes it.

(2) At one time, women could not speak in the Churches (1 Cor. 14:34-35). Yet during other times they worked with Paul (Rom. 16:1-4), some women were even prophetesses (Luke 2:36).

(3)The Law of Moses was in full force during OT times and withdrawn during NT times (Matt. 5:17)

(4) At one time, divorce was not allowed then later under certain circumstances it was permitted (Matt. 19:8-9).

The fact is the LDS Church was without prejudice from the beginning. When the Church was first organized, many other religions would not allow Black Americans to join their churches, but FORCED them to meet at different times or in different meeting places. Black Americans have ALWAYS been welcome in the LDS Church.

The Saints knew the Black Americans would eventually receive the priesthood much sooner than the persecution started. As early as 1852 Brigham Young said that the "time would come when they will have the privelege of all we have the privelege of and more."
Sink Maggots
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That was a little joke Moroni. The civil rights movement happened in the 60's... That helped bring about this "revelation" from God.
Seamaster
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imagg...

You casually ignored the fact that the BOOK OF MORMON SAYS THAT BLACK SKIN IS A CURSE!!!!!!!

What say ye?
ibmagg
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It was a mark to keep them from being killed. Why didn't your Church let them worship with you or join your Church? What say ye? You treated them like they were "cursed".
Seamaster
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Wow.

A mark to keep them from being killed. I cannot believe a remotely intelligent person could believe that.

Plus the notion is biblical. RIIIGGGHHHTT.

Very clever.

Was Jesus white? Did his skin not have a Jewish color?

Seamaster
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quote:
Why didn't your Church let them worship with you or join your Church? What say ye?

Huh? You apparently haven't been to my church.
OSAg01
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ibmagg,

You are trying to validate the BoM stating that black people are cursed by saying "Your churches treated black people bad too"???? Any mistreatment of blacks by Christians is the fault of the people not the doctrine. Nowhere in scripture does it indicate that blacks were cursed. That is unilaterally a mormon doctrine, and one for which you have no defense. You can talk about them not being allowed the priesthood and have all sorts of legitimate reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that black people were accursed according to your beliefs.
Hank Hill
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WhoDat wrote,

quote:
You casually ignored the fact that the BOOK OF MORMON SAYS THAT BLACK SKIN IS A CURSE!!!!!!!

What say ye?

Show me where the BOM says anything about black skin.

Black skin is not once mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
OSAg01
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quote:
And God had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities." (Second Book of Nephi 5:21 (1981 ed.)).


Yet here it is at least once

[This message has been edited by OSAg01 (edited 6/26/2006 4:16a).]
OSAg01
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quote:
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

Book of Mormon (Alma 3:6)


quote:
Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them.... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned ...
(Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p.477).

quote:
"Cain slew his brother... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin ..."
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol, 7, p.290).

quote:
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so"
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p.110).

schmendeler
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quote:
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so"


ouch
Seamaster
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I am surprised the LDS haven't changed the BOM by now. I bet they will change it sometime in the future much like they've changed a lot of hte BOM already to suit their purposes.

Ibmagg...you said that the black skin was given to people of color to protect them from being killed...where does the BOM say this?
IIIHorn
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Luke Wilson?



~(%^D)

HRLIII
Cold Steel
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OSAg01, are you suggesting that anyone thinks that the Amerindians have black skin?

Cold Steel
ibmagg
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It was spiritual death. The curse has been removed.

Read the account of the black family that joined the Church and traveled by foot from Conn. to Nauvoo and not only how they were treated, but the their leader was invited to stay in the Smith home and work to assist Emma. She got to see the Prophet in very enightened way. You can not be "on stage" 24 hours a day. She traveled west with the pioneers and a statue is built in her memory. You will not enjoy her personal account of the Prophet becauses it conflicts so much with the views that so many of you now hold.
Seamaster
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Whatever. The BOM calls it a curse. Period.

The LDS have changed their stance in light of the current political situation just like they did with Polygamy.
ibmagg
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Whodat -when did your Church allow blacks to worship with you?
Seamaster
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My demonination was started in 1972. Presbyterian Church in America. Blacks have always been welcome. Further my church has two elders whom are black.

The BIBLE Imbagg. The BIBLE does not say that black skin is a curse. The BOM does. The BOM promotes racism as the LDS church use to promote racism.

Sure, racism was present in the the church in the past. This was the result of sinfull man. Our holy book did not teach this or condone this. However, your "New Testament" does teach this.

That is the problem.
baumenhammer
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i like how imbagg has switched stances of what the bible means about "death" in a matter of hours - all to defend the Mormon faith.

quote:
ibmagg
posted 2:51p, 6/26/2006

Olsen -do you make it up as you go? Of course Adam& Eve died as will all of us. This is always Satan's best strategem; to mix truth with lies. Unfortunately that is how you get ensnared!

Please quote these verses as they are found in Moses 5:10-11, or Moses 4:10-11.


quote:
ibmagg
posted 3:44p, 06/26/06

It was spiritual death. The curse has been removed.



make it up as you go... ohhhhhhhhhh the irony.

[This message has been edited by kbaum07 (edited 6/26/2006 3:57p).]
Cold Steel
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quote:
2 Ne. 5:21

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Commentary from Brant Gardner http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/LDStopics/2Nephi/2Nephi5.htm

"The reiteration of prophecy in verse 20 contains only two elements; that the Lamanites would be cut off from the presence of the Lord, and that they were cut off. In verse 21 Nephi continues with a "cursing." Because this verse ends in the controversial "skin of blackness," it is of worth to examine the verse carefully.

The first sentence indicates that the Lamanites were cursed with "even a sore cursing." The cause of this cursing is clearly stated as their iniquity. The second sentence is a compound sentence, and contains two ideas. The first is the concept that the Lamanites had hardened their hearts against the Lord, so hard that they were "like unto flint."

It is the second part of the sentence that the most interesting. Inside of the phrase on skin color there are two overt concepts. The first clear concept is that the Lamanites were, at the time of separation, " white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome." Of course this is only to be expected, because they were siblings to Nephi and Sam and the rest of the Nephites. Certainly Nephi would not be expected to say of them anything so petty as that they were ugly, and we are "fair and delightsome." Nevertheless, Nephi indicates that there was a change, that that they now have a "skin of blackness." What is going on?

If we do some arbitrary re-cutting of the text into verses and move the sentence on the cursing to a different verse so that it is not as clearly seen in this context, the final verses have a very consistent version of the skin color. There is a change in skin color, and the change occurs under the direction of the Lord for a particular reason. The reason is "that they might not be enticing unto my people." This reason and function for the skin color is reiterated in verse 22. The function is to provide a visual separation between the Nephites and the Lamanites. Just as ancient Israel was under proscription from marrying outside the ethnic group, the New World Nephites are also being set up as a separate unit, prohibited from intermarriage (v. 23).

The text does not clearly indicate what that curse was, and the reason for the skin color change is given after it is announced, suggesting that the skin color might not be the curse, as that change required its own explanation. However, it has become customary to presume the connection between the curse and the skin color. In the context of Nephi's cultural predispositions, that could easily have been his perception.

The next problem is the phraseology itself. Until the importation of African slaves, a true "skin of blackness" was unknown (or at least quite rare) in Mesoamerica. When Cortez arrives with blacks in his company, the natives were even more taken with the novel black skin color than with the "white" of the Spaniards. With meaning did "skin of blackness" have for Nephi?

Nibley further expounds on the cultural meanings of the black/white problem in the Book of Mormon:

"This amazing coincidentia oppositorum is the clash of black and white. With the Arabs, to be white of countenance is to be blessed and to be black of countenance is to be cursed; there are parallel expressions in Hebrew and Egyptian. And what of Lehi's people? It is most significant that the curse against the Lamanites is the very same as that commonly held in the East to blight the sons of Ishmael, who appear to the light-skinned people of the towns as "a dark and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations, . . . an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety," etc. (1 Nephi 12:23; 2 Nephi 5:24). . . Which makes the difference between Nephite and Lamanite a cultural, not a racial, one. . . There is nowhere any mention of red skin, incidentally, but only of black (or dark) and white, the terms being used as the Arabs use them. (LEHI IN THE DESERT / THE WORLD OF THE JAREDITES / THERE WERE JAREDITES, Page 71]).

John L. Sorenson further examines the context of this "skin of blackness:"

"The skin shades of surviving peoples in Book of Mormon lands include a substantial range, from dark brown to virtual white. These colors cover nearly the same range as were found anciently around the Mediterranean coast and in the Near East. It is likely that the objective distinction in skin hue between Nephites and Lamanites was less marked than the subjective difference. The scripture is clear that the Nephites were prejudiced against the Lamanites (Jacob 3:5; Mosiah 9:1-2; Alma 26:23-25). That must have influenced how they perceived their enemies. The Nephite description of the Lamanites falls into a pattern known in the Near East. The Sumerian city dwellers in Mesopotamia of the third millennium B.C. viewed the Amorites, Abraham's desert-dwelling relatives, as "dark" savages who lived in tents, ate their food raw, left the dead unburied, and cultivated no crops. Urban Syrians still call the Bedouin nomads "the wild beasts." The Nephite picture of their relatives, in Jarom 1:6 and Enos 1:20, sounds so similar to the Near Eastern epithets that this language probably should be considered a literary formula rather than an objective description, labeling applied to any feared, despised, "backward" people. But all this does not exclude a cultural and biological difference between the two groups. The question is how great the difference was; we may doubt that it was as dramatic as the Nephite recordkeepers made out." (AN ANCIENT AMERICAN SETTING FOR THE BOOK OF MORMON, Page 89)

The immediately salient points are that this is absolutely a recognition of prejudice, and secondly a continuation of a long tradition that tends to exaggerate the "terrible" nature of ones enemies. It is a common feature of small group dynamics that where enmity exists, there will also be prejudice, and where prejudice, exaggeration. All of this is happening between the Nephites and the Lamanites.

Because we can see the Nephites as possessing a prejudice typical of their age, does that mean that we impute prejudice to God? Of course not. God's "hand" in this matter was to mark the Lamanites as separate. The prejudices came from the Nephites themselves. But where did the skin color come from? Did the Lamanite simply wake up one morning and see everyone around them with a markedly different skin color (can you imagine the shock)?

The best explanation is a combination of the lifestyle and the intermarriage with existing local populations. Remembering that the Lamanites would have remained along the coast while the Nephites went inland and upland, the Lamanites chose to wear fewer cloths (due to the hotter and more humid weather - not simply their indolence, as suggested in the Nephite record). Such conditions alone would darken the skin. Intermarriage would have taken longer, and the likelihood that the Nephites also intermarried with other populations suggests that the real difference was one of darkening due to sun exposure.

As John L. Sorenson notes:

"As Nephi tells the story, the Lamanites down in the hot lowlands were nomadic hunters, bloodthirsty, near naked, and lazy (2 Nephi 5:24; Enos 1:20). The circumstances of life in that environment could account for some of those characteristics. Many centuries later the Spaniards spoke in like terms of natives in the same area. The Tomas Medel manuscript, dating about A.D. 1550, just a generation after the first Spaniards arrived in the area, reported that the Indian men on the Pacific coast of Guatemala "spent their entire lives as naked as when they were born." That practice may have seemed a sensible response to the oppressive climate. In the late seventeenth century Catholic priest Fuentes y Guzman contrasted the "lassitude and laziness" of the same lowlanders with the energy of the highland inhabitants." (AN ANCIENT AMERICAN SETTING FOR THE BOOK OF MORMON, Page 140).

What we have in this verse is an adequate explanation of the consequences of the Lamanite lifestyle choice, along with a culture-bound prejudice system, expressed in terms common for Nephi."

Cold Steel
Seamaster
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Yawn.

Why is it then that the official teaching of the LDS church was to not allow African priests until relatively recently?
Seamaster
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Joseph Smith, God's final revelation to his people says that "Negros" under no circumstance could become priests.

Dance around all you want. That is what Joseph Smith wrote. That is what the LDS believed and taught. Now, after the fact, you try to frame it in conveluted tapestry of non-sense.

Just admit that the Smith and other church leaders said that Negros should never, "UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE" be priests.

They also stated that the Negros state of exist is according to their pre-existant merits.

"Less Valient" in pre-existence. That is why they are negro.

It even teaches that if a white man (Nephite) mixes with negros (laminites) that they too would receive the curse. Joseph Smith would make the KKK proud.

If it weren't for Spencer Kimball's "Revelation from God" you would still have to believe this non-sense and hate spewed garbage as a good Mormon.

Kimball's "revelation" by his own admision had everything to do with the Brazialian Temple.

It's all here: http://www.irr.org/mit/Skin%20Color%20&%20LDS%20Church.pdf
The dirty details of one of the many Mormon "dirty little secrets."

A false prophet teaching lust and hate was what Joseph Smith was under the influence of none other than Satan.

What if Kimball hadn't had his "revelation" to change the LDS church stance on the Negro? What then?

Now the LDS church hypocritically targets black neighboorhoods in their search for more followers.

Ezekial 13:9
9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.



[This message has been edited by WhoDatNguyen (edited 6/29/2006 9:48p).]
fahraint
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Go get em, Dat!

Maybe the hieroglyphics explaining racism against "negroes" got bleached in the hot Egyptian sun....
jja79
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It's obvious a man knows what's right and what's wrong when he does not/cannot defend himself, but only lashes out at you. Looks like the BoM spells it out in black and white.
gmf_aggie
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A little off topic here, but when I was in college I lived in a duplex in college station and I was visited by 3 different mormon missionaries. I now live in an established neighborhood in south college station for 4 years have yet to have a missionary come to my door.

Is this utter coincedence? Or do mormons target younger, perhaps more impressionable youths who have not fully defined their religious ideas and thoughts as adults would? Not an attack, a sincere question.
fahraint
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Yes, I think you are right. It is a strategy to target people not firmly grounded in their faith...and, are therefore more susceptible to heresy.

Eph 4:14
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming
NAS
gmf_aggie
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I have had many discussion with mormon missionaries and now with ibmagg or the last month. I applaud the passion behind the belief. I just do not think it is possible. Nothing in any of these open minded discussions has even made the remote possibility of the validity of the Mormon faith plausible to me.

Mormonism is such a "tricky" thing to deal with. Their commercials make you feel like you will learn the Bible, but it, imo, is only a way to get you in the door to open up the BoM. In ibm's statements in the past they use the Bible but at the same time undercut it, and say that God allowed it to be written and unpreserved by wicked and decietful men. Now, just today he made the statement that men did not have the Authority to preserve the word of God, poured out in the Bible. Perhaps it was a slip of the tongue, but to me it is a different stance on the lds feeling about the authority of the bible. they claim that the BoM is the restorative gospel prophesied in the Bible. However revelation and prophesy scholars all confirm that the restorative gospel will only be preached upon Christ's return to gather His Church. The LDS claim this restoration occurred in 1828, with a 14 year old boy.
ibmagg
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Whodat -God changes policy has time goes by. Circumsicion was "forever". Yet the requirement was removed with the advent of Christ. The Mosaic Law was "IT" until Christ came. Then the law was removed. Brigham Young had it revealed to him by the Lord that the curse would eventualy be removed and they would have the priesthood conferred upon them as well as all the blessing the other members had "and more" but in the Lord's due time.
OSAg01
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At least ibmagg doesn't deny that the mormons taught that black people were cursed.
ibmagg
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That is my own personal take. One can see that a people from one of the richest continents in the world have done so little with it. In the US no people have had so much blood split for them, treasury spent to help them from education and affirmative action, but for some reason every poor group of emmigrants that come here race by them as if they are standing still. One half of the young men are in jail or have been there.

But the black Americans and the native Africans that I have met, that are members of the Church for a short period of time, are a whole different issue. That is why I am more convinced than ever, that ONLY the Restored Gospel can save them; here and in Africa.

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 6/27/2006 11:44a).]
TxAgKuwait
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The following is a quote from "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" Ezra Taft Benson:

quote:
FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHETS
By President Ezra Taft Benson
BYU Devotional Assembly
Tuesday, February 26, 1980, 10:00 a.m.

My beloved brothers and sisters, I am honored to be in your presence today. You students are a part of a choice young generation—a generation which might well witness the return of our Lord. Not only is the Church growing in numbers today, it is growing in faithfulness and, even more important, our young generation, as a group, is even more faithful than the older generation. God has reserved you for the eleventh hour—the great and dreadful day of the Lord. It will be your responsibility not only to help bear off the kingdom of God triumphantly but to save your own soul and strive to save those of your family and to honor the principles of our inspired constitution.

To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead I am going to give you today several facets of a grand key which, if you will honor them, will crown you with God's glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan's fury. Soon we will be honoring our prophet on his eighty-fifth birthday.

As a Church we sing the song, "We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet." Here then is the grand key: follow the prophet. And here now are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of THE CHURCH of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132, verse 7, of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord speaks of the Prophet—the President—and says: "There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom his power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred." Then in section 21, verses 4-6, the Lord states:

Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Did you hear what the Lord said about the words of the prophet? We are to "give heed unto all his words"—as if from the Lord's "own mouth."

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: "You have got the word of God before you here in the Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them."

When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, "Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of old. " Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now," said he, "when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books." That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: "Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth." [in Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19)

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

The living prophet has the power of TNT. By that I mean "Today's News Today." God's revelations to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore, the most important prophet, so far as you and I are concerned, is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us.

Therefore, the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each week in the Church Section of the Deseret News, and any words of the prophet contained each month in our Church magazines. Our marching orders for each six months are found in the general conference addresses, which are printed in the Ensign magazine. I am so grateful that the current conference report is studied as part of one of your religion classes—the course entitled "Teachings of the Living Prophets," number 333. May I commend that class to you, and suggest that you get a copy of the class manual at your bookstore, whether you're able to take the class or not. The manual is entitled "Living Prophets for a Living Church."

Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "I say to Israel, The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, selected by G. Homer Durham [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1946], pp. 212-213.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident, which happened to him: I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: "My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, "But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." [In Conference Report, October 1), p. 78]

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sometimes there are those who feel their earthly knowledge on a certain subject is superior to the heavenly knowledge which God gives to His prophet on the same subject. They feel the prophet must have the same earthly credentials or training which they have had before they will accept anything the prophet has to say that might contradict their earthly schooling. How much earthly schooling did Joseph Smith have? Yet he gave revelations on all kinds of subjects. We haven't yet had a prophet who earned a doctorate in any subject, but as someone said, "A prophet may not have his Ph.D. but he certainly has his LDS."

We encourage earthly knowledge in many areas, but remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet, and you'll be blessed and time will vindicate you.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you" (D&C 21:4).


And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed".

Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture" (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot], 13:95).

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

"Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear," complained Nephi's brethren. But Nephi answered by saying, "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center" (1 Nephi 16:1, 3). Or, to put it in another prophet's words, "Hit pigeons flutter."

Said President Harold B. Lee:

You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life.... Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow.... Let's keep our eye on the President of the Church. [in Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153)

But it is the living prophet who really upsets the world. "Even in the Church," said President Kimball, "many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones" (Instructor, 95:257).

Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or mind their own business. Some so-called experts of political science want the prophet to keep still on politics. Some would-be authorities on evolution want the prophet to keep still on evolution. And so the list goes on and on.

How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness.

Said President Marion G. Romney, "It is an easy thing to believe in the dead prophets." And then he gives this illustration:

One day when President Grant was living, I sat in my office across the street following a general conference. A man came over to see me, an elderly man. He was very upset about what had been said in this conference by some of the Brethren, including myself. I could tell from his speech that he came from a foreign land. After I had quieted him enough so he would listen, I said, "Why did you come to America?" "I am here because a prophet of God told me to come." "Who was the prophet;" I continued. "Wilford Woodruff." "Do you believe Wilford Woodruff was a prophet of God?" "Yes, I do." "Do you believe that President Joseph F. Smith was a prophet of God?" "Yes, sir." Then came the sixty-four dollar question. "Do you believe that Heber J. Grant is a prophet of God?" His answer, "I think he ought to keep his mouth shut about old age assistance."

Now I tell you that a man in his position is on the way to apostasy. He is forfeiting his chances for eternal life. So is everyone who cannot follow the living Prophet of God." [in Conference Report, April 1953, p. 125]

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelations of God and the reasoning of men—between the prophet and the politician or professor.

Said the Prophet Joseph Smith, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire" (Scrapbook of Mormon Literature, vol. 2, p. 173).

Would it seem reasonable to an eye doctor to be told to heal a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making clay, and applying it to the man's eyes and then telling him to wash in a contaminated pool? Yet this is precisely the course that Jesus took with one man, and he was healed. (See John 9:6-7.) Does it seem reasonable to cure leprosy by telling a man to wash seven times in a particular river? Yet this is precisely what the prophet Elisha told a leper to do, and he was healed. (See 2 Kings 5.)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [Isaiah 55:8,9]

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter — temporal or spiritual.

Said Brigham Young:

Some of the leading men in Kirtland were much opposed to Joseph the Prophet, meddling with temporal affairs... . In a public meeting of the Saints, I said, "Ye Elders of Israel.... will some of you draw the line of demarcation, between the spiritual and temporal in the Kingdom of God, so that I may understand it?" Not one of them could do it....

I defy any man on earth to point out the path a Prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be. [Journal of Discourses, 10:363-364]

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

When a people are righteous they want the best to lead them in government. Alma was the head of the Church and of the government in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was mayor of Nauvoo, and Brigham Young was governor of Utah. Isaiah was deeply involved in giving counsel on political matters and of his words the Lord Himself said, "Great are the words of Isaiah" (3 Nephi 23:1). Those who would remove prophets from politics would take God out of government.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them; otherwise, the prophet is just giving his opinion—speaking as a man. The rich may feel they have no need to take counsel of a lowly prophet.

In the Book of Mormon we read:

O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them. [2 Nephi 9:28,29,42]

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words, but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn't exist, rather than repent of their sins.

Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out.

As we come closer to the Lord's second coming, you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord refers to the First Presidency as "the highest council of the Church" (107:80) and says, "whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those....the First Presidency, whom I have sent" (112:20).

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

President Harold B. Lee relates this incident from Church history:

The story is told in the early days of the Church—particularly, I think, at Kirtland—where some of the leading brethren in the presiding councils of the Church met secretly and tried to scheme as to how they could get rid of the Prophet Joseph's leadership.

They made the mistake of inviting Brigham Young to one of these secret meetings. He rebuked them, after he had heard the purpose of their meeting. This is part of what he said: "You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of God and sink yourselves to hell." [In Conference Report, April 1963, p. 81]

In a general conference of the Church President N. Eldon Tanner stated:

The Prophet spoke out clearly on Friday moming, telling us what our responsibilities are... .A man said to me after that, "You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn't right, and it doesn't appeal to them, then that's different." He said, "Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn't want."

I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow. When we decide that there are some of them that we will not keep or follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not to follow the Prophet of God.

No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep. [In Conference Report, October 1966, p. 98]

"Look to the Presidency and receive instruction," said the Prophet Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], p. 161).

But Almon Babbitt didn't, and in the Doctrine and Covenants section 124, verse 84, the Lord states:

And with my servant Almon Babbitt, there are many things with which I am not pleased; behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church.

In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the —follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. if we want to know how well we stand with the Lord, then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain.

How closely do our lives harmonize with the words of the Lord's anointed—the living prophet, the President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency?

May God bless us all to look to the prophet and the presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead, is my prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.


And the this quote from Prophet, Seer, and Revelator Brigham Young:

quote:
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol, 7, p.290).


quote:
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"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so"
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Se here is my question for IBMagg...the others can chime in, but I really want to hear IBM's take on this.

Should men who engage in mixed-race marriages (aka miscegenation) be subject to a death penalty?

Brigham Young, as prophet, said so.

Ezra Taft Benson, as prophet, certianly implied that Brigham Young need not say "thus saith the Lord" in order for his sermons to have the force of God's law. Brigham Young, and he was prophet, seer, and revelator, suggested that any and all his sermons could be considered as scripture.

So.....when missionaries go around giving people "the discussions" do they tell a caucasian male married to an African-American female that (or vice versa) that they got some 'splainin to do?

Is miscegenation wrong, since Brigham Young said it was?
ibmagg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Not at all since the restriction has been removed. It was a spiritual death that Brigham was talking about because at that time without the priesthood, no temple marriages, sealings, etc. cold take place. Today the recommendation is that it is still better for people to marry within their own race.
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