In honor of Lone Stranger, I was requested to start a thread on this topic.

My thought is quite simply that tithing and/or giving money to the church is one of the greatest scams the church has ever pulled over on the masses. I believe if legitimate churches speak out on these folks, they could risk their own scrutiny and possible fewer dollars in the offering plate.

There are so many other periferary areas dealing with this that drive me crazy, also. Probably my biggest is churches being tax exempt.

How do you expect "Christians" in the broadest sense to do anything about them?? Most (nearly all) Christians I know do not care for televangelists, but what are we supposed to do? Shoot them?

Do you expect churches to run without money?

Agreed, the televangelists are money hungry, but to say tithing and giving and asking for money overall is bad is way overgeneralizing the problem.

It also seems odd that you begin with something we all pretty much agree upon ,but then you go to the extreme to bring tithing in general into that which you claim we should not tolerate. This is the typical methods of many of the naturalists and atheists. They say “because this small group of people are bad, that means the whole thing is bad”, or "becuase this was wrong, that must mean that whole thing is corrupt". Quite a leap of logic.

I don't -- that's like saying I tolerate terrorists because they exist...

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Notafraid


It also seems odd that you begin with something we all pretty much agree upon ,but then you go to the extreme to bring tithing in general into that which you claim we should not tolerate. This is the typical methods of many of the naturalists and atheists. They say “because this small group of people are bad, that means the whole thing is bad”, or "becuase this was wrong, that must mean that whole thing is corrupt". Quite a leap of logic.

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It doesn't seem like that small of a group to me. If you turn on any of these church channels, they're all either asking for money or peddling cheesy videos, tapes or books.

To answer the previous question on how churches run without people giving money, what I am speaking of is manipulating people to give. I think churches use "scripture" to guilt people into giving. Churches guilt people into thinking if they don't give that 10%, they will not be blessed and God will not show favor. I think that is irresponsible and dispicable. I don't have a problem with people giving if they want and giving what they can without any undue pressure or guilt.

What I have a bigger problem with, which affects me directly, is churches not paying at least a portion of property taxes. If you're going to stand in the pulpit and tell the congregation how to vote, they should lose their tax exempt status.

[This message has been edited by Macarthur (edited 5/19/2006 10:49a).]

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totally agree. At that point there become Poitical Action Committees.

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Do you expect churches to run without money?

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Faith. God provides etc etc Can you point to scripture where Christ was peddling for money so he could buy a new robe?



"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

I don't think "we" tolerate them in the least. They're influence is generally contained to their own audience, plus often they sell what the crowd wants to hear. Such as, send me all of your money for holy & annointed spring water.

vt

No but I can point to Scriptures where Jesus was watching the collection plate at Temple.

I think what MacArthur doesn't understand is that while every "church channel" he sees on TV is some sleazy televangelist, this does not represent even a small fraction of Christianity as a whole. 99% of all churches abhor their behavior but we can't afford to buy airtime just to say "Don't send us donations" As a result, all you see are the sleazebags. Its not about Christians tolerating or not tolerating them; what do you expect us to do? Buy auirtime where we list fraudulent preachers? Start every sermon with a list of sleazy televangelists?

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If you're going to stand in the pulpit and tell the congregation how to vote, they should lose their tax exempt status.

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I agree there. Politics and Jesus just don't mix.

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My thought is quite simply that tithing and/or giving money to the church is one of the greatest scams the church has ever pulled over on the masses.

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To answer the previous question on how churches run without people giving money, what I am speaking of is manipulating people to give. I think churches use "scripture" to guilt people into giving. Churches guilt people into thinking if they don't give that 10%, they will not be blessed and God will not show favor.

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If I'm correct, Jesus talked about money more than any other subject in the gospels. His point was not to give so that God would materially bless you here on Earth, it was to be generous with your material possessions so that they don't become your god.

Also, 10% is by no means a rule, and is never stressed anywhere in the New Testament... Tithing comes from the law, and was there for the purpose of freeing us from our love of our possessions. Here is a New Testament example of giving:

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1 Corinthians 16:1-2

Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

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"in keeping with his income"... that's totally in line with what Jesus said when watching the collection plates in the Temple.

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pocketrockets06

No but I can point to Scriptures where Jesus was watching the collection plate at Temple.

I think what MacArthur doesn't understand is that while every "church channel" he sees on TV is some sleazy televangelist, this does not represent even a small fraction of Christianity as a whole. 99% of all churches abhor their behavior but we can't afford to buy airtime just to say "Don't send us donations" As a result, all you see are the sleazebags. Its not about Christians tolerating or not tolerating them; what do you expect us to do? Buy auirtime where we list fraudulent preachers? Start every sermon with a list of sleazy televangelists?

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I think you are understating these folks reach and influence. They are raking in millions and millions of dollars, and the vast majority is tax free.

Christian could start in the pulpit. Pastors could begin to speak out from the pulpit. But, again, to my point I think they're afriad to because it might cause folks to question their collections.

Do churches have an open book policy in regards to Accounting?

Mine provides the congregation with their records every year in the december newsletter.

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I believe if legitimate churches speak out on these folks, they could risk their own scrutiny and possible fewer dollars in the offering plate.

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actually you're WRONG!!!! my preacher from a very large church (2nd baptist houston), went on a "sidenote" rant against televangelists last weekend. and he & the church are in the public eye quite often. first time in a while i felt like getting up and yelling "amen brother"!!!!

i think that our church members are quite aware that televangelists are frauds. i think that televangelists take advantage of the "church on tv" crowds.

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Mine provides the congregation with their records every year in the december newsletter.

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mine also (in april i think).

Macarther, I and many other Christians don't tolerated the TV freaks, but honestly, there are some teachers on TBN that I actually like.

There are also many books written, and by other Christians, exposing both the doctrinal insanity and the greed of these people. THE SEDUCTION OF CHRISTIANITY and RETURN TO SEDUCTION by David Hunt are an example of a couple. Also, THE DOOR a Christian satire magazine, frequently nails these people in biting articles.

As to tithing, I do it because I believe in scripture, and I believe in much of the work of the church. I don't tithe because it makes me more saved or because God is poor unless I give my money. In the absolute sense, all that I have belongs to God.

Are there abuses in Christian churches and among Christian ministeries? Sure, there are abuses in almost everything.

And, even though the freaks on TV are way out there, if you watch them, you will still hear enough of the truth to come to know Jesus. And like Paul said "I rejoice that the gospel is being preached."

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 5/19/2006 1:51p).]

Pastors do speak out from the pulpit MacArthur but when was the last time you were in church to hear them? I am telling you that you have let your worldview be defined by what you see on TV. Would you let your views on other subjects be completely determined by what you see on TV?

In response to Raj's comment: most Baptist and non-denominational churches have the membership set the church budget and vote on it. This includes things like salaries, program budgets, etc. I'm not sure how things work in more mainline denominations which have a church hierarchy.

And one other response MacArthur. Add up the church budgets of every church you don't see on TBN (including the RCC, all SBC churches, Methodists, Lutherans, et al.) and you will see how small their budget is.

I'm not trying to say they rake in nothing. Their budget is out of all proportion to their numbers but it is still a small fraction of Christianity.

my church (non.denom) does quqrterly business meetings. all members attend

every dime is accounted for

what would it take for the meg churches to do this? lds, rcc, etc

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gordanvucko


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I believe if legitimate churches speak out on these folks, they could risk their own scrutiny and possible fewer dollars in the offering plate.
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actually you're WRONG!!!! my preacher from a very large church (2nd baptist houston), went on a "sidenote" rant against televangelists last weekend. and he & the church are in the public eye quite often. first time in a while i felt like getting up and yelling "amen brother"!!!!

i think that our church members are quite aware that televangelists are frauds. i think that televangelists take advantage of the "church on tv" crowds.

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Well, great for you and your church Gordon! I can't help but think that if there were more of this, these guys would simply slither away.

And I agree that most churches give an accurate accounting of their monies. If they didn't, I would suspect they wouldn't exist for long. I would be curious about large churches and especially how the congregations justify spending millions on new sanctuaries.

One of my biggest issues is with these guys that run their business operations out of a location and claim tax exempt status for their business locations. Anyone else see a problem here?

Everyone knows that Jesus was a capitalist.

This is about as sensible as asking why legitimate retail businesses tolerate the junk sold on infomercials at two in the morning or a ballet company being expected to protest outside a topless bar because dancing is being corrupted.

As long as there are rich widows who watch young good looking preachers on TV, there will be funding for these guys. Jimmy Swaggart could go from smiling to bawling in the wink of an eye, and I could just see those old ladies writing him a check right there on the spot.

Billy Graham had the right way of doing things -He got a set salary no matter what the donations were, and I really don't recall him ever getting on TV and making a money pitch. His preaching was so powerful the money came in without it.

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Everyone knows that Jesus was a capitalist.

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And a Republican

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ro828

This is about as sensible as asking why legitimate retail businesses tolerate the junk sold on infomercials at two in the morning or a ballet company being expected to protest outside a topless bar because dancing is being corrupted.

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Not quite the same thing.

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texasag73

As long as there are rich widows who watch young good looking preachers on TV, there will be funding for these guys. Jimmy Swaggart could go from smiling to bawling in the wink of an eye, and I could just see those old ladies writing him a check right there on the spot.

Billy Graham had the right way of doing things -He got a set salary no matter what the donations were, and I really don't recall him ever getting on TV and making a money pitch. His preaching was so powerful the money came in without it.

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Well, there in lies the problem. There are way too many little old ladies giving money that can't afford to give. I know my grandmother was in no position to be sending money to these jackasses when she would give.

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Well, there in lies the problem. There are way too many little old ladies giving money that can't afford to give. I know my grandmother was in no position to be sending money to these jackasses when she would give.

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yeah, that is the saddest & worst part. and here's where the problem is. lets say your grandma wrote a check she could not afford to her church instead of TV liar #1. you could go to her church, speak to the pastor/minister/members and something could be done pretty quickly to have that money back in her hands (a refund from the church, money raised by other church members etc). by the way, this is what church is for. so we can help those who need help.

the problem with these TV ministries is that you get nothing but empty promises from con-men. if you ever run into trouble, you have no "church" to fall back on for help (as in people that make up the church). the people is what makes God's church. they are there to help you in your time of need.

and another thing that pisses me off is how many times these frauds say "God told me"!!!! be very afraid of people that start their speech by saying that. cause how can you argue with something that God (supposedly) told someone!!!

Robert Tilton used to spout a lot of his own stuff on his show, and every other sentence or so, he would add the phrase - "Sayeth the Lord", like what he was saying was really what God was saying. Then he would break into gibberish, which was his way of "speaking in tongues". He was quite good at all of this, never missing a beat, and talking faster and faster the whole time. I used to sit there in amazement at how good he could work this con, and the best part was when he would hold his hand up, and tell you to go place your hand on top of his on the TV screen, so that God's power could flow through him, through the TV, and into your hand. It worked really well, until 20-20 revealed him for the fraud that he was...

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texasag73

Robert Tilton used to spout a lot of his own stuff on his show, and every other sentence or so, he would add the phrase - "Sayeth the Lord", like what he was saying was really what God was saying. Then he would break into gibberish, which was his way of "speaking in tongues". He was quite good at all of this, never missing a beat, and talking faster and faster the whole time. I used to sit there in amazement at how good he could work this con, and the best part was when he would hold his hand up, and tell you to go place your hand on top of his on the TV screen, so that God's power could flow through him, through the TV, and into your hand. It worked really well, until 20-20 revealed him for the fraud that he was...

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Yeah, he's the posterchild.

The problem is he's not done.

http://www.successinlife.tv/home.html