http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA050806.01A.Pastor_Resigns.d4bd276.html

This is a sad ending to a very volatile chapter in this church's life. Prior to Johnson, Buckner Fanning was the only preacher this church ever knew. Sadly, I called this when Buckner retired and Johnson started preaching 6 weeks later. They never mourned, reflected, and prayed about the next chapter.

Fanning did a terrible job of preparing his congregation for such a dramatic change. Instead of preaching and preparing for change, the last year was spent preaching, "Buckner's Greatest Hits." Everything was rosy and perfect and the church had no idea what hit them when the new man started to flex his wings.

Please lift this church up in prayer today.

I had a good number of friends that grew up there. It is ashamed to see - Trinity and Oak Hills did a lot of good together back in the day. Buckner was a great preacher, although I dont really miss his commercials.

isn't this the testimony of pretty much every establishment church that replaces their old, beloved pastor? you know, the pastor whose portrait adorns the entrance to the church.

to the incoming pastor, it is an impossibility. replace our legend, be what we had.

vt

That experience led to the creation of the "Intentional Interim" program. FBC-College Station did this very effectively in that you have an interim for at least a year and during that time you do a very thorough introspective of the church and its make-up. Followig that, you begin a very slow and prayerful paster search.

Trinity should have used an interim for at least a couple of years and let the congregation get the "Fanning" out. He was a great man, church leader, and unbelievable uniter of different denominations / faiths in the city, but his legacy is dented some for how quickly his church crumbled after his retirement.

This is one of the things I like about the Methodist church (I think). They rotate their pastors every few years to avoid this kind of thing. Baptist churches tend to particularly vulnerable to this since there is no overarching church hierarchy. I agree with the above statement about having an interim for a while before hiring a new guy.

You also see this phenomenon in sports. Take Nebraska football. Nobody wants to be the guy who replaces the legend (Osborne). You want to be the replacements' (Solich) replacement (Callahan). So much less pressure and pain.

We may be in the same situation with Slocum/Johnson and Fran/Childress.

Pocketrocketrocket06 -I wonder who in in his "right" mind would have wanted to try to follow Joseph considering how loved he was by the members of the Church? What is that old saying: never follow the "legend", follow the man who follows the legend! The way we have been reading about is the way it is in "man made" organizations.

It's nice to always and constantly be reminded that the Mormon church is perfect and all others are flawed. Thank you... I had forgotten.

Thank you ibmagg. I made a bet with myself that the post couldn't go more than a couple of hours without someone commenting on how much better the Mormon church is. You have made my day.


And as I remember it, there were several people who wanted to follow the "legend", so to speak. Its what you get when the job comes with perks like power over thousands of followers (I'm being generous, it might only have been hundreds) or the ability to define anything you do as right since, afterall, you are the prophet. So frankly, there is nothing different in the Mormon way of doing things than any other "man made" organization.

Buckner had some great commercials on TV. The problem is that he was so good that people mistook the messenger for the message....

I was concerned that you all could not figure it out of your own. (chuckle) But do think about what I said. The Lord's way is not man's way.

Our members do not pick and choose those who are called to preside over them. Ours is a theocracy but with a blend of democracy in that the names who are called to preside are presented to the membership for their sustaing vote. IF this should ever happen that they were not sustained, they still don't get to pick their leaders. A new name would be called and presented and the process gone through again. When no one receives any pay for their labors, a "desire" for position does not exist.

Let's just dispel the point that when you don't get any pay for labors then the "desire for position does not exist".

How many examples do you want that this isn't true? I can name multiple Home Owner Association Board Members that are in it for the personal power. The same goes for school board and many other organizations. The simple fact that you aren't paid doesn't take the corruption out of a position. Bad argument.

i was a member at that church for 15 years....saying it went downhill fast is an understatement

aggiemds84,

Why, in your opinion, did it go downhill so fast?

This is part of the reason that I respect the leaders at our church (Southeast Christian in Louisville) so much. The old man (Bob Russell) who was the senior pastor for 40+ years and helped guide the church from a couple hundred to 18,500 a weekend, stepped down from leadership on Jan 1 and will retire from preaching this summer.

The church announced how the change would take place 5 years ago, including naming who would be the new senior pastor (Dave Stone.) During that time, they hired a 3rd pastor (Kyle Idleman, who at 30 is the most gifted preacher I’ve ever heard) and have modified the rotation to where Bob preached less and Dave and Kyle preached more.

Now that Dave is in charge, there are things changing, but not much. You can tell that the plan was really prayed over and that the people in charge have had the discipline to stick to it.

BQ88 -I am talking about ecclestical positions. The positions that you talk about are time consuming, but the people who serve in those positions are either stay at home wives, retirees or have a full time day job.

Whiff!

The sound of ibmagg missing the point

Strangely, I quit attending regularly during one of those planned interims. I need the stability of a known pastor. I need one I can trust and bond with. I am not going to commit that bond to someone who is only there a short time and gone--I would rather search for anothe church where the pastor is a known.

I know that is not the right way--and I am supposed to accept the long time with no pastor, but if I wait and don't connect with the new hire, that is almost two years I could have been in a new church.

I like the idea of the younger associate who is a known moving up into the vacancy. Makes for a smooth transition.

Poceketrocket -I missed no point. School board position, etc. are different. I simply tried to clarify that ecclestial positions are not sought after in Protestant Churches when there is no compensation. Evidently, priests in the Catholic Church are also given a living wage or living assistance.

But, this thought just crossed my mind. Why did Christ let one of "his" churches go "down hill" considering all the "good work" it had done in the past?

quote:

---

Why did Christ let one of "his" churches go "down hill" considering all the "good work" it had done in the past?

---

Why did Christ let one of 'his churches' adopt doctrine that was anti-black? Why did he let this church adopt adultery as an accepted practice? It makes you wonder??!!

ibmagg - you clearly missed the point.

BQ88 says: "Let's just dispel the point that when you don't get any pay for labors then the "desire for position does not exist"."

You respond: "BQ88 -I am talking about ecclestical positions. The positions that you talk about are time consuming, but the people who serve in those positions are either stay at home wives, retirees or have a full time day job."

BQ88's point was that just because a position is unpaid does not mean people don't desire it. Proof: Yell Leader isn't a paid position but everybody and their brother wants it. HOA president isn't paid but they still have elections for it.

Your response was along the lines of only people who have lots of spare time take those jobs (take a look at the clubs/leadership roles someone has before running for yell leader) which is not only untrue but it is irrelevant. It says nothing about their motivations which is what BQ was talking about. There are lots of good reasons for Mormons to want to be in ecclesiastical positions that have nothing to do with money or how much spare time they have. You have a works-based religion; I'm sure that serving as a Bishop or priest looks very good as a work of faith. That is a non-monetary motivation.

Also, there are Protestant churches where people serve as unpaid lay clergy. There are lots of places with unpaid music/youth ministers and places with senior pastors that are not paid as well. You just never looked hard enough.

Name the pastors that you know of that serve as the "pastor" and do not get paid. I am not talkingabout Sunday School.

Rab91 -Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a child that doesn't want to listen. If we were anti-black, we would not have had thosands of black members before the priethood was given.. WHEN did your church actuall let them attend with you? Huh?? We never had separate congregations for them like the other "christian" churches.

And when do you think "adultrey" was ever sanctioned by the Church? You know you speaketh a great untruth.

Had any more "crusades" lately. The Muslims are waiting for you. How about some more inquisitions -isnt that the way you handled your heretics. Why not continue the practice today? -I am sure the Pope was "inspired" to do so. When you want to attack theCurch you can't even toss a good BB but the boulders can come right back at you. What is the latest priest tally?

Oh my.

[This message has been edited by Nixter (edited 5/9/2006 7:39a).]

ibm - Did I touch a nerve? I love how predictable you are.

quote:

---

And when do you think "adultrey" was ever sanctioned by the Church? You know you speaketh a great untruth.

---

It's called POLYGAMY

quote:

---

When you want to attack theCurch you can't even toss a good BB but the boulders can come right back at you.

---

Funny, I was thinking the same thing when you threw stones at pocketrocket's church for 'going downhill'.

Finally, you might want to investigate the difference in human failings vs doctrinal failings. I'm guessing you'll never see the difference. It must be great to be part of religion where the truth is a moving target. All you need is a new 'revelation' to change the 'truth'.

quote:

---

When no one receives any pay for their labors, a "desire" for position does not exist.

---

quote:

---

I simply tried to clarify that ecclestial positions are not sought after in Protestant Churches when there is no compensation.

---

This is simply not true. People seek positions of all kind for rewards other than money.

Do you think George W Bush and Dick Cheaney sought their positions for 400,000$/year? Both are worth millions and could make millions more by working in the private sector.

In 2003, Dick Cheney made 198k from being vice president, while making over 600,000 dollars from other ventures. Is he in that position of authority because he wanted to make that money? His net worth is in the tens of millions of dollar category.

Your position is a ridiculous one.

Money may be the only thing that motivates you (you certianly bring it up more than anyone else here) but it isnt the only thing that motivates most people.

quote:

---

Evidently, priests in the Catholic Church are also given a living wage or living assistance.

---

They made about $18,000/year. Truly those men are in it for the money. No wife. Job that consumes almost all your time. $18/k per year. Yes, that money is certianly worth everything else they give up to SERVE GOD.

quote:

---

Name the pastors that you know of that serve as the "pastor" and do not get paid.

---

Max Lucado and David Robinson from the church I grew up in.

I have preached many times and never been paid once.

quote:

---

WHEN did your church actuall let them attend with you? Huh?? We never had separate congregations for them like the other "christian" churches.

---

Nor did we. However, no position of authority was ever kept from them.

quote:

---

And when do you think "adultrey" was ever sanctioned by the Church?

---

quote:

---

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

---

The Bible doesn't say a man should leave his father and mother and cleave unto multiple wives and those wives and him should become one flesh.

A man and a woman come together to form one body.

When Smith took multiple wives, I - as do almost every non-LDS member - believe he was abusing his power and authority of those that believed him to be a prophet took any wife he wanted. Smith took the wives of married men - something you dont see anywhere in the Bible.

quote:

---

I know that is not the right way--and I am supposed to accept the long time with no pastor, but if I wait and don't connect with the new hire, that is almost two years I could have been in a new church.

---

I know that is not the right way--and I am supposed to accept the long time with [the current spouse], but if I wait and don't connect with the [current spouse], that is almost two years I could have been [getting on with my life].

Sometimes it can be helpful to recognize the eerie similarities between church and marriage dysfunctions or ideals. Just a point to ponder...

quote:

---

"Many pastors have told me, 'You've lost your ever-loving mind to try to follow Buckner Fanning," Johnson said two weeks before he was UNANIMOUSLY elected as Trinity's pastor that July...

Every believer has a strong voice in a Baptist congregation, Johnson said, and dissent — even from a minority — can pose an obstacle.

---

How can someone be unamimously elected at a church that large, and then claim that every believer has a strong voice...? This is obvious baloney, and shows that the hiring of "new guy" involved some unfair pressure tactics and mind games among the congregants. Or does the Board hold the only vote? I could possibly see the deacons voting unanimously - but the congregation? - hooey.

Somebody undoubtedly got up and read about how we should all be of one mind, and how that meant that the vote should be unamimous, or some garbage like that. Right from the start, then, you have a bitter faction that feels pressured, not to mention a few deacons who are scripturally challenged - hate to see this happen.

Usually it doesn't take any real pressure to get a unanimous church i na situation like that. If he was the only candidate presented before the church and the pastor search committee (or whoever selected him as a candidate) recommended him highly, most people will be inclined to accept their judgement.

As a sidenote, this looks a lot like the process ibmagg described in the LDS church where members do not select candidates but do vote on them. I fully expect him to miss this comparison and tell me how wrong I am and how much better the Mormon way is, but that's par for the course.

pocketrocket06 -I guess I could, but it looks like you have alrady figured it out for your self. Our congregations are not put to gether, nor do they stay together, or do they grow. because of who the Bishop happens to be at any given time. The Church is not "personality" driven!

Woefully ironic given the manner in which you discuss and admire Joseph Smith the man.

I love the way you ignored soup and I once your point about pay and desire for position had been proven wrong.

At least Hank and Biz attempt to answer the tough questions about Mormonism and have thoughtful responses. You are just one big ball of relexive, somewhat defensive responses to the posters on here. I must admit you have destroyed far more straw men than anyone else I have ever seen.

I have not ignored your post about people willing to give service without pay. Lots of people do so. I coached little league football 13 years and served as commissioner for 5. People served in all kinds of capacities without pay. But, the ministry is a different deal. It would be interesting to see how many would want to serve as minsters if there was no pay. It would be interesting to see how many would go on missions if their Church or another benefactor didn't foot the bill. You want see a LDS ward fall apart because of a change in the Bishop.

Wait a minute, doesn't the Church foot the bill for all of those Mormons who go out on mission? I thought you said something to that effect a while back.

Also, you have basically agreed with all of my points and still insist that I am wrong. Fine, not worth debating anymore.

Most churches have the minister do many other things, and since it is a full time job, they are compensated accordingly. Most have preachers with many formal years of training and degrees. I believe that Foree Grove of A&M Church of Christ has 3-4 graduate level Bible degrees.

LDS preacher isnt a full-time job, and allows you to keep your own job, or they use a retired person.

You cannot intelligently compare the two.

Also, I and most of my friends have been on mission trips that were not paid for by our church.

I was in Chilpancingo, Mexico; Phuket, Chaing Mai and Bangkok, Thailand.

My friend Jeff has served in Phuket, Bangkok, and Chaing Mai, Thailand, Narobi, Kenya, Moshi, Tanzania. None paid for by our church.

http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=624559&forum_id=15
Watch those videos. Those people arent being paid. They paid to go out to India and serve there.

You really know not what you are talking about.

Soup, you know and so do I, that is the exception and not the rule. I do know what I am talking about. My wife and I were always being asked to support financially foreign missions before I joined. Ask the pastors of other chuches. Maybe some who post on this board can comment.